My research on low-dose finasteride...

[californiaoceans911]

So a while back I posted her terrified of finasteride. Since then, I have seen a dermatologist (albeit a horrible one). He threw a propecia script at me and ran out the door as fast as he could, and answered none of my questions.

I have searched academic literature, this forum, 2 other forums....and still have yet to find anyone that has comprehensively tried low-dose finasteride for an extended period of time. Now, before someone jumps on screaming that taking low doses of finasteride are useless because it is the low levels of DHT that cause the side effects, let me explain why I AM interested.

I will be 30 in a few months, with NW1.5 (I think) temple recession. I'm not looking to grow a furry animal on my head from a state of baldness. I just want to take as little as possible to maintain (or even lose hair, but at a much reduced rate).

My brother takes finasteride 1mg, didn't research, didn't care, he just took it. He is fine, no side effects that he notices. However, my concern isn't the whether or not I'll have libido/erection adverse effects. My concern is what 5AR inhibitors do overall in other areas of my body. I have seen time and time again on these forums that "0.2 mg is the same as 1 mg" so the only reason to take 0.2 mg is if you're trying to save money. I say hogwosh. Your serum/scalp DHT may be affected the same with both of those doses, but what about all that 5AR that is being inhibited? What if 0.2 mg and 1 mg of finasteride have vastly different effects on other reactions in your body? I could not find any information in the literature on this topic.

I am looking for some advice/comments/experiences that anyone has had with low doses of finasteride.... namely < 0.25 mg. Thanks to everyone on this forum and this forum itself for providing SOOOO much information.

 

[JHCL1990]

So a while back I posted her terrified of finasteride. Since then, I have seen a dermatologist (albeit a horrible one). He threw a propecia script at me and ran out the door as fast as he could, and answered none of my questions.

I have searched academic literature, this forum, 2 other forums....and still have yet to find anyone that has comprehensively tried low-dose finasteride for an extended period of time. Now, before someone jumps on screaming that taking low doses of finasteride are useless because it is the low levels of DHT that cause the side effects, let me explain why I AM interested.

I will be 30 in a few months, with NW1.5 (I think) temple recession. I'm not looking to grow a furry animal on my head from a state of baldness. I just want to take as little as possible to maintain (or even lose hair, but at a much reduced rate).

My brother takes finasteride 1mg, didn't research, didn't care, he just took it. He is fine, no side effects that he notices. However, my concern isn't the whether or not I'll have libido/erection adverse effects. My concern is what 5AR inhibitors do overall in other areas of my body. I have seen time and time again on these forums that "0.2 mg is the same as 1 mg" so the only reason to take 0.2 mg is if you're trying to save money. I say hogwosh. Your serum/scalp DHT may be affected the same with both of those doses, but what about all that 5AR that is being inhibited? What if 0.2 mg and 1 mg of finasteride have vastly different effects on other reactions in your body? I could not find any information in the literature on this topic.

I am looking for some advice/comments/experiences that anyone has had with low doses of finasteride.... namely < 0.25 mg. Thanks to everyone on this forum and this forum itself for providing SOOOO much information.

There's a chart somewhere that shows 0.25mg finasteride ED is about 70-85% as effective as 1mg ED, and 0.50mg is about 85-98% as effective as 1mg ED. I THINK the chart also stated that once you get up to ~2mg ED the DHT inhibition/effectiveness doesn't change. A lower dose will still be effective, just not AS effective.

 

[californiaoceans911]

There's a chart somewhere that shows 0.25mg finasteride ED is about 70-85% as effective as 1mg ED, and 0.50mg is about 85-98% as effective as 1mg ED. I THINK the chart also stated that once you get up to ~2mg ED the DHT inhibition/effectiveness doesn't change. A lower dose will still be effective, just not AS effective.

I don't remember any chart that showed 0.5 mg efficacy but I have tried to get one paper by Gormley (sp?) et al. but even as faculty at my university I don't have access to that journal. Second author was E. Stoner, who has published other papers with funding from Merck.

That paper studied hormone levels at 0.04, 0.12, and other low doses. I'm dying to get my hands on that paper., if anyone has it.

My goal is to get blood tests, then try a low does and retest after some determined amount of time, like a month or two. I want to take as small a dose as possible to regrow but I can't even find as much as anecdotal evidence for doses between 0.05 and 0.2....which seems to be the points relevant to the so-called flat nosed response.

As an aside, I have been using rogaine minoxidil foam on my temples for a little over a month with good regrowth being already visible.

Anyone have that Gormley et al paper? 1990 I think.

 

[zzzzz]

The differences in low dose from regular dose finasteride is too small its not even really worth your time to figure out the small differences exactly

 

[californiaoceans911]

The differences in low dose from regular dose finasteride is too small its not even really worth your time to figure out the small differences exactly

I don't know what you're talking about that was a pretty broadly blanketed statement that actually said a lot of nothing.

Obviously there is a huge difference, which is why 0.01 mg acts like a placebo and 0.2 mg has the desired effect.

Scientifically speaking, the data points 0.01-0.2 have a big difference!

 

[zzzzz]

I don't know what you're talking about that was a pretty broadly blanketed statement that actually said a lot of nothing.

Obviously there is a huge difference, which is why 0.01 mg acts like a placebo and 0.2 mg has the desired effect.

Scientifically speaking, the data points 0.01-0.2 have a big difference!

How are you going to take 0.01 mg? Dissolve 1mg pill in a 500ml bottle of some solution and drink 5ml exactly once a day? Would this even work?

It doesn't even matter bro you are overthinking it just take it .25mg whatever it doesn't make much of a difference

 

[Cincinnati Kid]

I think this might help. Scooped it up from an older thread.

 

[californiaoceans911]

How are you going to take 0.01 mg? Dissolve 1mg pill in a 500ml bottle of some solution and drink 5ml exactly once a day? Would this even work?

It doesn't even matter bro you are overthinking it just take it .25mg whatever it doesn't make much of a difference

I never said I was going to take 0.01 mg, and administration is not a problem. If I wanted to I could measure out 0.001 mg in my lab.

My questions was whether anyone had that specific paper or if anyone had tried doses lower than 0.2 mg for longer than a month or so.

Saying "don't worry about it" is just not an option. Ignorance is not bliss in this scenario.

 

[Armando Jose]

The grapht is clear, there is a flat response zone from 0,2 mg, but I dont know about possible sistematic absortion.

 

[xRedStaRx]

I don't know what you're talking about that was a pretty broadly blanketed statement that actually said a lot of nothing.

Obviously there is a huge difference, which is why 0.01 mg acts like a placebo and 0.2 mg has the desired effect.

Scientifically speaking, the data points 0.01-0.2 have a big difference!

I'm not on my computer at the moment. But 0.04 was the least effective dose taken in cumulative form.

0.12mg also approached 1mg after about a week, and was slightly faster than 0.04mg.


0.2 mg reached a steady state fairly quickly after about 3 doses.

 

[californiaoceans911]

I'm not on my computer at the moment. But 0.04 was the least effective dose taken in cumulative form.

0.12mg also approached 1mg after about a week, and was slightly faster than 0.04mg.


0.2 mg reached a steady state fairly quickly after about 3 doses.

If by steady-state you mean that it reaches a saturation point of the amount of DHT that is suppressed, then it is horrific that 1 mg is still the standard dose prescribed. I really need to find this paper. I'll keep looking on our university database, if I find it i'll let you guys know.

 

[aero1976]

My urologies through 5mg on me before I had even lost any hair for my prostate. 7 years later I quit because another said he was unsure if it in fact ward off prostate cancer. Then I lost quite a bit of hair. Back on it two years later and have been for a year. I have never noticed anything. I cut down to 2.5mg, 1.25 if I grab the pill cutter on any given day. Why mess with it. Just take 1/4 of a 5mg pill.

 

[californiaoceans911]

My urologies through 5mg on me before I had even lost any hair for my prostate. 7 years later I quit because another said he was unsure if it in fact ward off prostate cancer. Then I lost quite a bit of hair. Back on it two years later and have been for a year. I have never noticed anything. I cut down to 2.5mg, 1.25 if I grab the pill cutter on any given day. Why mess with it. Just take 1/4 of a 5mg pill.

There is no point in posting a reply if you say "why mess with it". I clearly explained in my first post that my concerns were not about my penis going numb. The reason I started this thread was because 5AR is not only responsible for your boners people. Yes 1 mg works just as good as 1.25 mg and 5 mg for suppressing DHT.

HOWEVER, 5AR is responsible for several other important reactions in your body. Thus, I think it would be best to inhibit as little 5AR as possible. I have not seen any research that shows X.X mg finasteride inhibits Y% of the 5AR in the body. Just trying to minimize the toll that the drug takes on the body.

Everyone seems to be concerned with their boners, and rarely do people bring up the other issues. THAT is why I was asking if either a) anyone has the bromley 1990 paper or b) anyone has stuck with a lose-dose regimen that successfully (at least) halted their hair loss.

People posting over and over the "just not mess with it and take 1 mg" is not really helping the thread. I'm glad you're fine taking 1 mg and don't care, but I do and that is why I am asking. Thank you to those that have been trying to help.

 

[xRedStaRx]

If by steady-state you mean that it reaches a saturation point of the amount of DHT that is suppressed, then it is horrific that 1 mg is still the standard dose prescribed. I really need to find this paper. I'll keep looking on our university database, if I find it i'll let you guys know.

Mostly, yes. I don't remember what paper I have these figures from, but they should tell enough.

On the other hand, there is a reason why 1mg is superior to >=0.2mg doses, but it's not a very good reason though.

There is no point in posting a reply if you say "why mess with it". I clearly explained in my first post that my concerns were not about my penis going numb. The reason I started this thread was because 5AR is not only responsible for your boners people. Yes 1 mg works just as good as 1.25 mg and 5 mg for suppressing DHT.

HOWEVER, 5AR is responsible for several other important reactions in your body. Thus, I think it would be best to inhibit as little 5AR as possible. I have not seen any research that shows X.X mg finasteride inhibits Y% of the 5AR in the body. Just trying to minimize the toll that the drug takes on the body.

Everyone seems to be concerned with their boners, and rarely do people bring up the other issues. THAT is why I was asking if either a) anyone has the bromley 1990 paper or b) anyone has stuck with a lose-dose regimen that successfully (at least) halted their hair loss.

People posting over and over the "just not mess with it and take 1 mg" is not really helping the thread. I'm glad you're fine taking 1 mg and don't care, but I do and that is why I am asking. Thank you to those that have been trying to help.

Well, serum DHT levels is a good proxy for 5-AR II inhibition. We already know that it has almost negligible affinity towards 5-AR I in low doses. 5-AR III is more strongly inhibited than 5-AR III.

It's almost impossible to determine the effects finasteride will have on you. It's easier to subject test yourself than look at facts and figures. We don't even know how 5-AR enzymes affect our development and sustainable health.

 

[isishearmyplea]

There is no point in posting a reply if you say "why mess with it". I clearly explained in my first post that my concerns were not about my penis going numb. The reason I started this thread was because 5AR is not only responsible for your boners people. Yes 1 mg works just as good as 1.25 mg and 5 mg for suppressing DHT.

HOWEVER, 5AR is responsible for several other important reactions in your body. Thus, I think it would be best to inhibit as little 5AR as possible. I have not seen any research that shows X.X mg finasteride inhibits Y% of the 5AR in the body. Just trying to minimize the toll that the drug takes on the body.

Everyone seems to be concerned with their boners, and rarely do people bring up the other issues. THAT is why I was asking if either a) anyone has the bromley 1990 paper or b) anyone has stuck with a lose-dose regimen that successfully (at least) halted their hair loss.

People posting over and over the "just not mess with it and take 1 mg" is not really helping the thread. I'm glad you're fine taking 1 mg and don't care, but I do and that is why I am asking. Thank you to those that have been trying to help.

hey !! google 'my finasteride story so far' . . .there is a post on btt by desmond, it may help. best of luck!!

 

[californiaoceans911]

Mostly, yes. I don't remember what paper I have these figures from, but they should tell enough.


On the other hand, there is a reason why 1mg is superior to >=0.2mg doses, but it's not a very good reason though.

......

Well, serum DHT levels is a good proxy for 5-AR II inhibition. We already know that it has almost negligible affinity towards 5-AR I in low doses. 5-AR III is more strongly inhibited than 5-AR III.

It's almost impossible to determine the effects finasteride will have on you. It's easier to subject test yourself than look at facts and figures. We don't even know how 5-AR enzymes affect our development and sustainable health.

Thanks for that redstar! I have one of our librarians pulling the paper for me today, should have it within 48 hours and I will gladly share. What is the "not very good reason" that 1 mg is better? Are you referring to the slightly higher regrowth observed in the hair counts? If so, I'm not worried so much about regrowth, I'm barely a NW2 and fine with just keeping what I have. I have been using Rogaine for 1-1.5 months and seen significant regrowth at my temples just being on rogaine.

I have been a NW1.5-NW2 for the last 8 years. I just suddenly noticed it accelerate in the last 3 months. My brother said he was exactly my age (he's two years older, 32) when he noticed it. If I see regrowth on Rogaine alone, I think that going the extra mile with the 1 mg pointless for me. I have heard the finasteride is a good proxy for 5AR inhibition statement a lot, but as a scientist I'm not convinced.


BTW, I don't understand why people do all the Proscar pill cutting these days. I finally bit the bullet and went to fill my script for propecia today. Interestingly enough my ex (who is a pharmacist) was the one who filled it, that was a horrible experience. But anyway I asked how much Propecia was and how much the generic was and I got 220 for propecia and 25 for generic. That's a 90 day supply. So much question is, if 1mg pills of finasteride costs 8 dollars a month now, why the hell are people cutting up 5 mg finasteride pills? I told my brother what I paid and he was shocked, he said he pays 60/month at his pharmacy for 1 mg finasteride. I am confused. Costco for the win?

 

[xRedStaRx]

I don't know what you're talking about that was a pretty broadly blanketed statement that actually said a lot of nothing.

Obviously there is a huge difference, which is why 0.01 mg acts like a placebo and 0.2 mg has the desired effect.

Scientifically speaking, the data points 0.01-0.2 have a big difference!

Thanks for that redstar! I have one of our librarians pulling the paper for me today, should have it within 48 hours and I will gladly share. What is the "not very good reason" that 1 mg is better? Are you referring to the slightly higher regrowth observed in the hair counts? If so, I'm not worried so much about regrowth, I'm barely a NW2 and fine with just keeping what I have. I have been using Rogaine for 1-1.5 months and seen significant regrowth at my temples just being on rogaine.

I have been a NW1.5-NW2 for the last 8 years. I just suddenly noticed it accelerate in the last 3 months. My brother said he was exactly my age (he's two years older, 32) when he noticed it. If I see regrowth on Rogaine alone, I think that going the extra mile with the 1 mg pointless for me. I have heard the finasteride is a good proxy for 5AR inhibition statement a lot, but as a scientist I'm not convinced.


BTW, I don't understand why people do all the Proscar pill cutting these days. I finally bit the bullet and went to fill my script for propecia today. Interestingly enough my ex (who is a pharmacist) was the one who filled it, that was a horrible experience. But anyway I asked how much Propecia was and how much the generic was and I got 220 for propecia and 25 for generic. That's a 90 day supply. So much question is, if 1mg pills of finasteride costs 8 dollars a month now, why the hell are people cutting up 5 mg finasteride pills? I told my brother what I paid and he was shocked, he said he pays 60/month at his pharmacy for 1 mg finasteride. I am confused. Costco for the win?

Yes the benefits:dose ratio beyond 0.2 mg is very low, but exists. It was only ~84% as effective as 1 mg in increasing hair counts. Which isn't much when you consider the full dose regrows around 70-90 hairs per unit area.

Why are you not convinced that serum DHT levels is a good proxy for 5-AR activity?

Generic proscar or proscar itself is much cheaper when cut. This is we cut pills instead.

 

[californiaoceans911]

Yes the benefits:dose ratio beyond 0.2 mg is very low, but exists. It was only ~84% as effective as 1 mg in increasing hair counts. Which isn't much when you consider the full dose regrows around 70-90 hairs per unit area.

Why are you not convinced that serum DHT levels is a good proxy for 5-AR activity?

Generic proscar or proscar itself is much cheaper when cut. This is we cut pills instead.

I'm not convinced because I guess I haven't read it in the literature, maybe I just overlooked it. I just hear it quoted all the time but have not seen the source for this claim. Just because it seems intuitive that doesn't mean it's true. Probably published somewhere and I have not come across it.

At $8/month for 1 mg ED it seems to me like a waste of time. I've yet to ever take any medication COVERED by my insurance at less than $10/month. 8 dollars seems like a steal to begin with. How much is a month of proscar (when cut to 1.25 mg ED)?

 

[xRedStaRx]

I'm not convinced because I guess I haven't read it in the literature, maybe I just overlooked it. I just hear it quoted all the time but have not seen the source for this claim. Just because it seems intuitive that doesn't mean it's true. Probably published somewhere and I have not come across it.

At $8/month for 1 mg ED it seems to me like a waste of time. I've yet to ever take any medication COVERED by my insurance at less than $10/month. 8 dollars seems like a steal to begin with. How much is a month of proscar (when cut to 1.25 mg ED)?

You won't find it in literature. But it's implicit to think that serum DHT levels are at at best a linear proxy for 5-AR inhibition. In reality, 5-AR inhibition might actually be less than that implied by serum DHT. I'm not sure what you don't quite get.

I buy Proscar from the local pharmacy, it costs me around $25 for 140 mg. That's $25 for 8-10 months of supply.

 

[californiaoceans911]

You won't find it in literature. But it's implicit to think that serum DHT levels are at at best a linear proxy for 5-AR inhibition. In reality, 5-AR inhibition might actually be less than that implied by serum DHT. I'm not sure what you don't quite get.

I buy Proscar from the local pharmacy, it costs me around $25 for 140 mg. That's $25 for 8-10 months of supply.

I think the assumption that is being made is that 5-AR has more of an affinity for Testosterone than anything else in the body. If this assumption is true, then = good proxy. If it is not, then not such a good proxy, and taking more finasteride than is necessary is causing interruptions in other reactions within the body that could be prevented by taking a lower dose. My phd is not in biochemistry so eh I dunno.

As for the cost, I get 140 mg of finasteride for 39 dollars, an 8-10 month supply. I'm not trying to be rude, but if a person can't afford 39 dollars for almost a year of finasteride, they probably should be spending their money on other things like food? I was under the impression it was super expensive.