Should EVERYONE on finasteride take something to dip their estrogen?

[Hoppi]

I was just thinking about this. Apparently, according to my doctor, cases of breast cancer can be higher amongst people who take finasteride. Which does make a kind of sense, particularly amongst those who don't act upon sides and reduce their dose etc.

I read recently (in this thread and this thread) that white button mushroom can have the effect of lowering estrogen, although apparently it raises your free testosterone and well and has a (probably very) mild carcinogenic substance in it. Neither of these is too desirable!

But, do we think that if we were to lower our estrogen while on finasteride, just how many side effects would this remove, and does it carry any additional risks?

I would imagine gyno would disappear, but what about other things like the breast cancer risk and testicular pain? A decreased sex drive? Are they down to too low DHT, or too high estrogen?

Thanks for reading guys and I'm quite curious about the outcome of this thread!

The Hoppi-polla!

 

[GeminiX]

Well no, clearly not *EVERYONE*

 

[Blondilocks]

I for one found that all my sexual side effects were eliminated when i took DIM or I3C which rid the body of estrogen, however they come with sides of their own for me, its a battle and finding that winning combination, which i think is impossible because were messing with things we know nothing about.

But I think slot of sides are due to elevated Estrogen, high E2 will cause the loss of morning wood etc

 

[treeshrew]

Never experienced any side effects on finasteride, my derm never suggested I take anything to inhibit estrogen levels, and blood tests show all my hormones continue to show stable levels. So no, not for me.

 

[Hoppi]

Well no, clearly not *EVERYONE*

Never experienced any side effects on finasteride, my derm never suggested I take anything to inhibit estrogen levels, and blood tests show all my hormones continue to show stable levels. So no, not for me.

hehe ok not everyone then!

I think the benefits can shine for certain people though, and it's great to know the option is there. I mean increasing SHBG will also result in lower estrogen AND testosterone free in the blood... so that might help to balance the hormones overall during taking Finasteride (finasteride's inhibition of 5ar should, according to logic, increase free T levels. So SHBG increase with something like flax seeds should decrease both T and estrogen).

Correct me if I'm wrong on that one though, as I'm not certain of the precise hormonal balance

So, Blondilocks, are they both good for lowering estrogen? I did a quick bit of reading on Wikipedia and stuff (my favourite source of info... hehe!) and both sound good and actually quite natural, they even can prevent cancer and tumours apparently! But yes you're right it is down to quantity as well, what kind of sides can they have? ._.

 

[DoctorHouse]

I was taking DIM while on Propecia. My IGF-1 levels are super high for my age. My doctor thinks it could be the DIM causing this. Anyone know if this is possible. Bryan????

 

[Mopless]

Zinc is also suppose to be an estrogen inhibitor, I think. Though I don't know how powerful it is.

Something that raises SHBG would be nice. Trying to think of stuff that does, but other then exercise, nothing comes straight to mind.

 

[Bryan]

finasteride's inhibition of 5ar should, according to logic, increase free T levels.

Please explain to us what you think is the "logic" of why finasteride would increase testosterone levels.

 

[Hoppi]

finasteride's inhibition of 5ar should, according to logic, increase free T levels.

Please explain to us what you think is the "logic" of why finasteride would increase testosterone levels.

just coz like... if it isn't being converted into DHT then... where is it going?

 

[Bryan]

just coz like... if it isn't being converted into DHT then... where is it going?

I'm sure you've heard that the body carefully regulates the amount of testosterone it produces, right? If what you said above were true (simply that less testosterone is being converted into DHT, so there's more of it hanging around in the bloodstream), wouldn't that be just a very temporary effect? Wouldn't that happen only after the very FIRST dose of finasteride, after which the brain would sense the extra testosterone, then send the chemical signals to the testes, telling it to make less of it?

 

[Hoppi]

just coz like... if it isn't being converted into DHT then... where is it going?

I'm sure you've heard that the body carefully regulates the amount of testosterone it produces, right? If what you said above were true (simply that less testosterone is being converted into DHT, so there's more of it hanging around in the bloodstream), wouldn't that be just a very temporary effect? Wouldn't that happen only after the very FIRST dose of finasteride, after which the brain would sense the extra testosterone, then send the chemical signals to the testes, telling it to make less of it?

Well, possibly yeah! I mean I really don't know, I wasn't sure at just how accurate the body was at regulating hormones like that!

So, is me taking flax seed oil to lift my SHBG to mop up my free T and estrogen silly? Apparently it worked in 9 out of 10 men with hair loss in a small study

Oh, I also thought it might reduce any sides of finasteride as it would also lower my estrogen! I mean, I know DIM and I3C do that better, but I thought they sounded a bit too much too soon right now!

 

[Bryan]

Well, possibly yeah! I mean I really don't know, I wasn't sure at just how accurate the body was at regulating hormones like that!

Oh, I think it's pretty damned accurate! Think of it this way: if your body is accurate and (more importantly) consistent enough to have a steady extra 10% of testosterone in your blood year after year after year while taking finasteride, why wouldn't your brain simply adjust DOWNWARD how much testosterone it's making?? In my opinion, the answer for why that happens is that there is a true upregulation of testosterone production while you're taking finasteride, because DHT is one of the things the brain uses to sense the general level level of androgenic stimulation in your body. It sees a sharply reduced level of DHT in the blood, and thinks: "Uh-oh...DHT is way down, I better send the chemical signals to the testes to make them start producing more testosterone!"

Supporting that theory is this statement from the PDR (Physician's Desk Reference) in the Clinical Pharmacology section for Proscar: "...Increases of about 10% were observed in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and testosterone levels in patients receiving Proscar, but levels remained within the normal range."

In other words, it seems very obvious to me that testosterone goes up when you take finasteride for the very simple reason that the brain is TELLING the testes to make more of it, by sending increased levels of LH and FSH (brain hormones that stimulate its production). It does that as long as you keep taking the drug, it's not just a temporary effect, which is another tell-tale sign arguing in favor of what I said.

 

[Hoppi]

Oh ok, that's cool, but doesn't that mean your testosterone would be even HIGHER? O.O lol

It's interesting though.

Also, so, people get estrogen-related sides whilst on finasteride, I assume as well as sides caused by low DHT (I assume). Now, do we think that that's because estrogen is too high, or because the RATIO of estrogen to... DHT or T... is too skewed in estrogen's favour?

Sorry... interesting though isn't it?

My first guess I suppose would be the estrogenHT ratio... so I suppose taking flax seed might help as it increases your SHBG in theory... or is there something negative about having too little free T?

Man this is confusing ._. heh

 

[Bryan]

Oh ok, that's cool, but doesn't that mean your testosterone would be even HIGHER? O.O lol

I don't understand the question. Your testosterone IS higher when you take finasteride.

Also, so, people get estrogen-related sides whilst on finasteride, I assume as well as sides caused by low DHT (I assume). Now, do we think that that's because estrogen is too high, or because the RATIO of estrogen to... DHT or T... is too skewed in estrogen's favour?

Don't know for sure. I don't think anybody does. I personally am not a big fan of the "estrogen theory", since it seems to me that estrogen must surely only go up a tiny bit when you take finasteride.

 

[Hoppi]

Don't know for sure. I don't think anybody does. I personally am not a big fan of the "estrogen theory", since it seems to me that estrogen must surely only go up a tiny bit when you take finasteride.

But it's the estrogen that causes gynecomastia right? I mean... probably...

I guess that COULD be a lack of DHT too, if DHT somehow stops it from developing...

but I guess no-one knows!

 

[moonbase]

Who wouldn't want their very own set of boobs to grab? Best of both worlds! (kidding of course)

 

[Hoppi]

Who wouldn't want their very own set of boobs to grab? Best of both worlds! (kidding of course)

one day, SOMEONE will do that... I bet you... lol

 

[GeminiX]

It might have been an "April Fool's" type gag, but I remember around 15 years ago reading about an Australian chap Brian Zimbig who had breast implants for a dare or bet or something...

 

[G k]

I didnt have time to read the whole thread so excuse me if I missed anything..

But the most practical and effective tool of everything I've tried to lower my estrogen from finasteride(and yes it will increase on finasteride) if brocolli. It contains a hormone regulating substance called I3C. I was going to try a supplement called "DIM", but I found that just brocolli, as well as cauliflower and other greens, really did the trick.

“One study showed that 500 mg of I3C a day actually cuts the estrogen levels by half.â€￾

This level can cut estrogen in half after only a week.

 

[Hoppi]

It might have been an "April Fool's" type gag, but I remember around 15 years ago reading about an Australian chap Brian Zimbig who had breast implants for a dare or bet or something...

rofl!

Me too me too! hehe

I didnt have time to read the whole thread so excuse me if I missed anything..

But the most practical and effective tool of everything I've tried to lower my estrogen from finasteride(and yes it will increase on finasteride) if brocolli. It contains a hormone regulating substance called I3C. I was going to try a supplement called "DIM", but I found that just brocolli, as well as cauliflower and other greens, really did the trick.

“One study showed that 500 mg of I3C a day actually cuts the estrogen levels by half.â€￾

This level can cut estrogen in half after only a week.

Result! Good man


Oh sorry one other thing. Apparently, APPARENTLY... flax seeds can raise SHBG, and are capable of "regulating" estrogen, lifting it if it's too low and lowering it if it's too high.

Additionally they have been shown to slow (or stop, I can't remember) hair loss in something kinda mad like 9 out of 10 men in a small study.

I wonder if flax seeds would do it, it's possible I think.