What Causes Hair To Fall? "it's The Plant Or The Soil?"

[Nostro100]

This question is very important as it's answer can affect a lot of things.
It is claimed that DHT levels are higher in the balding area of the scalp than the non balding area. What good would an hair transplant do then if it's being "planted" in a area DHT/pgd2 Rich... wont it miniturize as well?
Some claim that it's the hair itself that it's DHT sensitive and therefore, the hair on the sides and back of your head is "Permanent hair".
I was hoping that it's the scenario where the hair is all the same and it's pretty much a battle of "making your scalp a fertile land for hair to grow". The bad scenario is, if the hair on your scalp is itself too sensitive to DHT then we are fucked. (that would mean the only solution is hair cloning...and I dont want that to be the solution as most men will never afford that)

 

[Mykonas]

That's actually a great observation and one of the reasons why i don't believe that Dht unsensitive hairs are the solution. Hair transplants don't set you for life even if you have a great donor capacity, not because you continue to lose your hair after a transplant but because of fibrosis and calcification on your scalp will evantually kill all those dht unsensitive hairs you transplanted from the back of your head, from cases that i've seen on the internet it takes 5 to 10 years post transplant for that to happen. Tsuji's method or hair multiplication (if it works) is only a half cure we still have to figure our how to fertilize the soil as you said. Follica might be on something in this part of the problem

 

[Nostro100]

That's actually a great observation and one of the reasons why i don't believe that Dht unsensitive hairs are the solution. Hair transplants don't set you for life even if you have a great donor capacity, not because you continue to lose your hair after a transplant but because of fibrosis and calcification on your scalp will evantually kill all those dht unsensitive hairs you transplanted from the back of your head, from cases that i've seen on the internet it takes 5 to 10 years post transplant for that to happen. Tsuji's method or hair multiplication (if it works) is only a half cure we still have to figure our how to fertilize the soil as you said. Follica might be on something in this part of the problem

So you admit that there is actually two kinds of hair? (one DHT sensitive and another not dht sensitive?) An hair transplant not working permanently would tell me that all hair is the same and that you are just planting hair on a scalp filled with DHT.

 

[Nostro100]

https://www.realself.com/question/true-the-transplanted-hair-permanent
Question: "How True is It That the Transplanted Hair is Permanent?

answer: "Hairs from the back of your head i.e the ones we transplant, are resistant and stronger hairs overall and tend not to shed. So those hairs stay with you even if they are moved to another location in a transplant. It is not the location of the hairs but the type of the hairs. The ones falling out are slightly of a different type."
"Rashid M. Rashid, PhD, MD
Houston Dermatologist"

 

[Mykonas]

So you admit that there is actually two kinds of hair? (one DHT sensitive and another not dht sensitive?) An hair transplant not working permanently would tell me that all hair is the same and that you are just planting hair on a scalp filled with DHT.

No, i just reffered to hairs from the back of the head as dht unsensitive because that's what they're perceived as. all hairs are the same it's where they are that counts the top of the scalp is always observed to calcify within androgenetic alopicia sufferers among other symptoms. Don't believe what a transplant surgeon will tell you, it is true that they do not tend to fall but trust me on the long run (5 years plus) they will. the solution is not to just have an unlimited donors but to also make your scalp propitious for follicle growth and to live undefenitly.

 

[BigBaldAndBeautiful]

Bodybuilders who take steroids (often very strong androgen receptor agonists) only go bald on top, if theyre predisposed to going bald.

If you subscribe to the DHT-causes-hairloss paradigm, it would still not be DHT per se that matters, but expression/sensitivity of the androgen receptor in the cells of the hair, and the cascase that leads to inflammation, prostaglandin synthesis, etc etc. Also, DHT is synthesized in the cells and tissues itself. A hair "unit" (they always transplant some skin with the hair, right?) is going to have its own DHT production and sensitivity.

As earlier mentioned in this thread, the calcification and fibrosis associated with hair transplantation is what causes the transplanted hairs to not last forever. That could be independent from DHT, although you could argue that some fibrosis/inflammation/calcification from the original hairs is going to effect the transplanted hairs.

We should look at hair loss as both a problem of the plant and the soil - there isn't really a dichotomy between the hair and skin to begin with.

 

[Nostro100]

Bodybuilders who take steroids (often very strong androgen receptor agonists) only go bald on top, if theyre predisposed to going bald.

If you subscribe to the DHT-causes-hairloss paradigm, it would still not be DHT per se that matters, but expression/sensitivity of the androgen receptor in the cells of the hair, and the cascase that leads to inflammation, prostaglandin synthesis, etc etc. Also, DHT is synthesized in the cells and tissues itself. A hair "unit" (they always transplant some skin with the hair, right?) is going to have its own DHT production and sensitivity.

As earlier mentioned in this thread, the calcification and fibrosis associated with hair transplantation is what causes the transplanted hairs to not last forever. That could be independent from DHT, although you could argue that some fibrosis/inflammation/calcification from the original hairs is going to effect the transplanted hairs.

We should look at hair loss as both a problem of the plant and the soil - there isn't really a dichotomy between the hair and skin to begin with.

So that could mean that, hairloss is for some people a death sentence in the sense that their hairs are too sensitive that they would have to lower DHT / PGD2 to impossible practical levels to achieve.
Such people would be those who claim to have tried everything, and nothing worked

 

[Nostro100]

No, i just reffered to hairs from the back of the head as dht unsensitive because that's what they're perceived as. all hairs are the same it's where they are that counts the top of the scalp is always observed to calcify within androgenetic alopicia sufferers among other symptoms. Don't believe what a transplant surgeon will tell you, it is true that they do not tend to fall but trust me on the long run (5 years plus) they will. the solution is not to just have an unlimited donors but to also make your scalp propitious for follicle growth and to live undefenitly.

Lookslike BigBaldandBeautiful disagrees with you...

You see guys...Asking this simple question and we are just 3 atm... Maybe a poll would help

 

[Nostro100]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9496234
That's the answer to the poll (2nd choice)
This study is from 1998... We already know the full cause of hairloss. We just have not been asking the right questions.
Hair follicles in the scalp have more androgenic receptors than follicles in non balding scalp, so, even if DHT levels were the same all over your head, you would still lose hair.
This explains why some men respond better to some treatments (some even get full head of hair) and others see nothing but side effects.
These later, unfortunate souls, have hair follicles full of androgenic receptors and the slightest hint of DHT/PGD2 and they will absorb it.

Point being, no matter what miracle drug you bring to lower DHT and PGD2, there will always be a bit to f*** up their hair.

 

[abcdefg]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9496234
That's the answer to the poll (2nd choice)
This study is from 1998... We already know the full cause of hairloss. We just have not been asking the right questions.
Hair follicles in the scalp have more androgenic receptors than follicles in non balding scalp, so, even if DHT levels were the same all over your head, you would still lose hair.
This explains why some men respond better to some treatments (some even get full head of hair) and others see nothing but side effects.
These later, unfortunate souls, have hair follicles full of androgenic receptors and the slightest hint of DHT/PGD2 and they will absorb it.

Point being, no matter what miracle drug you bring to lower DHT and PGD2, there will always be a bit to f*** up their hair.

Short of the full cure male pattern baldness will always in our lifetimes be a kitchen sink approach for this reason. You cant remove all DHT, and you cant remove all PGD2 or block all androgen receptors so your best off stopping each one as much as you can.
Blocking receptors is the ideal solution but like removing DHT its much harder to do in practice then in theory

 

[Murkey Thumb]

The more i think about it the more i am beginning to think that there is a bacterial edge that we are missing here. We carry all kinds of bacteria on our skin mainly healthy stuff that stops bad things from happening to our skin but also in our gut etc, etc. Could it be that full heads actually have a good bacteria that is either missing or killed off by anti-biotics? I had a full head of hair until the age of 29 then got a ring worm infection that was treated topically after that my hair fell out gradually over the next 10 years. Idk maybe a bacteria that expresses pge2 and has an dht blocking effect. It would be interesting to get the bacteria from the scalp of a 70 year old full head and compare it baldy 70 year old.

 

[BaldAsshole]

Bodybuilders who take steroids (often very strong androgen receptor agonists) only go bald on top, if theyre predisposed to going bald.

If you subscribe to the DHT-causes-hairloss paradigm, it would still not be DHT per se that matters, but expression/sensitivity of the androgen receptor in the cells of the hair, and the cascase that leads to inflammation, prostaglandin synthesis, etc etc. Also, DHT is synthesized in the cells and tissues itself. A hair "unit" (they always transplant some skin with the hair, right?) is going to have its own DHT production and sensitivity.

As earlier mentioned in this thread, the calcification and fibrosis associated with hair transplantation is what causes the transplanted hairs to not last forever. That could be independent from DHT, although you could argue that some fibrosis/inflammation/calcification from the original hairs is going to effect the transplanted hairs.

We should look at hair loss as both a problem of the plant and the soil - there isn't really a dichotomy between the hair and skin to begin with.

What if the opposite is true? The damage is there, and DHT is only affecting the healing of the preexisting condition.

The research seems to be conflicting...

"We have previously reported that, castration of male mice results in a striking acceleration of local cutaneous wound healing and dampens the associated inflammatory response. In this study, we report that systemic 5α-reductase inhibition, which blocks the conversion of testosterone to its more active metabolite 5α-dihydrotestosterone, mimics the effects of castration in a rat model of cutaneous wound healing. The mechanisms underlying the observed effects involve a direct, cell-specific upregulation of pro-inflammatory cytokine expression by macrophages, but not fibroblasts, in response to androgens. "

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/119/4/722

"We conclude that groups treated with 5α-DTH showed a better healing pattern with complete wound closure, and proved to have a positive effect on the morphology of the scar tissue as well as an antioxidant stimulating effect during secondhand intention skin wounds repair in diabetic rats."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27009546

But it is clear that androgens are related to wound healing and scarring. I think that diet and ambiental factors play a huge factor in the progression of this disease, with a genetic propensity to being hurt or not by poor diet and poor healthy habits. Id est, if you have the perfect genes, you can be fat, diabetic, smoker, etc. and your hair is going to be healthy; but, for many of us, I think that it is a matter of calcification, damaged immune system, vitamin D and K deficiency, high sugar consumption, insulin resistance, lack of H2S and angiogenic factors due to sedentary habits, NAD depletion...

I think that adjusting nutrients, fasting, healthy diet with no sugar, taurine, vitamin K, vitamin D, moderately sun exposure, EpiCor, exercise, happiness and meditation can do much in terms of maintaining the hair. I, at least, have halted the progression of hair loss considerably in this last five years, I have experienced no regrowth, though.

 

[Armando Jose]

https://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/interact/threads/hair-transplant-failure-cesc-fabregas.112622/

 

[Nostro100]

https://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/interact/threads/hair-transplant-failure-cesc-fabregas.112622/

Yup, that could very well prove that "it's the soil where hairs are planted that makes them die"...
BUT Hairloss is a complex bit so I state that both possibilities could be true, ie; Scalp hairs are more sensitive AND the scalp is not good for any hairs.

Then the possibility that the science behind hair transplants means that if you dont insert the hair in the "correct way", it will die, Hence the classic advice to get a good surgeon if you are going to have an hair transplant. With this last thing being said, there are people out there with hair transplants that lasted until today for a decade or so.

One could say simply that this football player had a shitty Doctor!

 

[Nostro100]

I still fail to see how my question is badly formulated... The answer is straightforward, (yes hair in the scalp is more sensible, no, hair is all equal) I dont see a middle ground here
But still Armando Jose; INT; The 7TH Sense; Ollie; Jonnyyy; deadhairfollicle; Murkey Thumb; bgt , all these guys think my question isn't legit.

I wonder how on earth is the "premise of my question" wrong and I hoped I would find on the comments but no. (When I made that option available ,It was in the sense that people would tell me WHY it's wrong, but apparently they just vote and leave)