Male, 18 - Am I balding

[Micky_007]

Doesn't dispute the fact that they lost a huge amount of money. When you're a multi-billion dollar company such as Merck, you're highly unlikely to shut down completely because of 1 drug. Money is power. People and studies get bought off all the time when such money is involved. They simply add in more known side effects on the product and get away with it. Does not dispute the fact that a large % of people get side effects from Finasteride. There's several studies that I linked that prove the side effect % is far higher than Merck states.

Also, I'm very sceptical about many peoples before and after pictures on Finasteride that are "hyper responders", or that respond very well because most of time, they don't prove that the before picture were really the before pictures and the after pictures were really the after pictures. Ask them to provide undeniable proof that their before pictures aren't really their after pictures and almost all won't do it.

It's very easy for people to use their after pictures as before pictures and vice versa and falsely claim their good/hyper responders to Finasteride.

Also, just as I mentioned to you when
I said:

If you have the time and can afford lawyers fees to open and follow through an entire court case (which usually takes several months at the least and some years more realistically) at your age of 18 years old Then by all means go for it.

This is also a main reason why only an extremely small percentage of those who do get Finasteride side effects would even follow through with law suits. There would be much more lawsuits if it weren't such a lengthy, time consuming, highly inconvenient and costly process to go the law suit route.

Hence the relatively lower number of law suits in comparison to Finasteride users isn't a valid point to measure how many people truly get side effects on Finasteride or how much Finasteride would have to had pay out all the other people who had side effects.

 

[Nebula74]

I did some blood tests on Thursday, and am going to see my GP this week. I'm going to ask for a Finasteride prescription, and hope that I don't get any sides. The only side I'm really worried about is gyno, because hair loss at a young age basically produces the same mental and physical sides that finasteride does anyway, so it's worth it to take a shot

 

[Selb]

U.S. court let Merck hide secrets about popular drug's risks

Lawsuits claim baldness drug Propecia causes sex problems, depression. The judge sealed evidence – viewed by Reuters – suggesting the maker downplayed risks. A widow wants the truth out.

www.reuters.com

"More than 1,100 Propecia-related lawsuits filed across the U.S. against Merck were consolidated before Judge Cogan in so-called multidistrict litigation (MDL). Merck agreed to settle most of them last year for $4.3 million, to be divided among the plaintiffs. Prior to the settlement, plaintiffs’ lawyers cited internal company communications to allege that in revisions to the drug’s original label, Merck understated the number of men who experienced sexual symptoms in clinical trials, and how long those symptoms lasted. Merck settled before responding to the allegation in court."

Reuters asks judge to release secret Propecia documents

Reuters asked a U.S. judge on Thursday to unseal documents filed in court regarding potential risks associated with Propecia, Merck & Co's popular baldness drug.

www.reuters.com

If you want to get into technicalities regarding the definition of a settlement, if Merk or Propecia actually won, they wouldn't have made a settlement and paid people out even $1. But here they are paying $4.3 MILLION dollars. You can say it's technically not a "win" but for most, I see it as a loss for Propecia.

Furthermore, Merck intentionally leaving out the other side effects on Finasteride was not a small thing as forgetting. They knew well what these side effects were bu left them out because they knew it would negatively affect sales. These are major major major problems because you can't just get away with that without paying people to keep quiet, paying scientists and FDA to keep quiet and also secretly funding "independent" studies because there's so many studies that contradict these "independent studies" that portray Finasteride in a less harmful light.

"
The sealed document also cites a 2016 sworn deposition in which a plaintiffs’ lawyer asked former Merck marketing vice president Paul Howes: “So you knew internally that if these sexual adverse events were prolonged or lengthened or never went away, that that would be something that would impact sales in a negative way. Right?”

“Yes,” Howes said.

Howes, who held that marketing job from 1998 until 2001, declined to comment for this article.


SALES DOWNER: In a 2016 deposition Reuters reviewed, former Merck marketing executive Paul Howes testified about the business risk posed by Propecia’s possible side effects."


No you're wrong again, there's actually a plethora of studies that show Finasteride is actually way worse, I'll cite you more stuff:

"The rate of sexual dysfunction was “significantly higher” in men who took finasteride compared to men who took the placebo, according to the study’s authors.

Impotence occurred in *15.8 percent* of finasteride users while 6.3 percent of placebo users reported the issue. The study’s authors published the results in the November 1996 issue of Canadian Medical Association Journal.

Also in 1996, a much larger observational cohort study published in British Journal of Urology used prescription-event monitoring to gather information on 14,772 patients. ED was the *most frequently reported side effect with finasteride*. It was also the most common reason for stopping the medication.

*Persistent Erectile Dysfunction* :

In March 2017, a Northwestern Medicine study found that some men who took finasteride suffered persistent erectile dysfunction in which they were not able to have normal erections for months or years after stopping the medication.

Out of 11,909 men who took finasteride or dutasteride, 1.4 percent developed persistent erectile dysfunction that continued for an average of about 1,350 days after stopping treatment, according to the study. "Young men who had more than 205 days of exposure to the drug had nearly five times higher risk of persistent erectile dysfunction than men with shorter exposure.*

Researchers published their findings in the open access journal PeerJ. "

" *Loss of Libido* :

Another side effect reported with Propecia use is a reduced interest in sex. In fact, *loss of libido was the most common sexual side effect reported in a 2011 study of finasteride users* published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine.

Researchers from the George Washington University School of Medicine interviewed 71 patients who experienced sexual side effects after using finasteride. The researchers found that *94 percent of men experienced a decline in libido.*

“Such significant and undesirable complications in relation to sexual function produce a well-documented negative impact on quality of life.”

Source: August 2003 review in International Journal of Impotence Research"

"*Problems Continue After Drug Use Stops* :

Following the early drug trials, both Merck and the FDA assured men that the sexual complications would resolve once they stopped taking the drug, but later evidence would prove the contrary.

"*The preapproval trials were not especially reliable, as the information was drawn from a relatively small patient group treated for only six months to one year, and follow-up procedures were unclear.*

*More recent investigations show the drug’s sexual side effects can persist even after a man stops taking the drug. In some cases, the complications are irreversible."*

" The man stopped taking the drug about a month later, and while some side effects disappeared, his sexual function never returned to normal. In a follow-up 11 years later, he still suffered from erectile dysfunction and loss of libido. The researchers published their study in the Journal of Sexual Medicine.

In 2011, George Washington University urologist Michael S. Irwig and his colleague Swapna Kolukula published their assessment of 71 finasteride patients who reported long-term sexual side effects that persisted after discontinuation of the drug.

The selected group of patients (young men between the ages of 21 and 46) took a survey that revealed a wide range of sexual side effects that arose after Propecia use, including problems with erectile function, arousal, sexual desire, orgasm and orgasm satisfaction.

The men had taken the drug for an average of 28 months. The sexual side effects continued for an average of 40 months after the men stopped taking the drug.

Upon following up with 54 of these patients one year later, Irwig discovered that *96 percent of the men were still suffering from the sexual dysfunctions* they initially reported. None of the men reported sexual, psychiatric or medical complaints before taking finasteride.

“The argument that the benefits of these drugs outweigh the risks is slowly eroding in the face of new emerging scientific evidence from preclinical and clinical studies.”

June 2014 study in Korean Journal of Urology

A 2014 review in Korean Journal of Urology found at least four previous studies that reported “persistent or irreversible” sexual side effects. The authors said the studies reported “negative emotional toll and reduced quality of life” for the men affected.

“The argument that the benefits of these drugs outweigh the risks is slowly eroding in the face of new emerging scientific evidence from preclinical and clinical studies,” the authors wrote.

Men who suffered long-term sexual dysfunction after taking Propecia have filed lawsuits against Merck that accuse the company of failing to warn users of the risk.

*Sexual Dysfunction and Suicidal Thoughts* :

Researchers have also found an increased risk of depressive symptoms and suicidal thoughts among men who suffered sexual side effects of Propecia. Irwig reported the connection in a 2012 study in the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry.

Irwig looked at 61 former finasteride users who experienced sexual dysfunction for three months or longer after they quit the medication. He compared them to a control group of 29 men who had male pattern hair loss but who had never used the drug.

He found that *44 percent of the former Propecia patients experienced suicidal thoughts* compared to just 3 percent of men who never used the medication.

*The rate of depressive symptoms was 75 percent in the men who had used finasteride* and 10 percent in the control group. Sixty-four percent of the former finasteride users suffered moderate or severe depressive symptoms. None of the men in the control group experienced the same issues."

" FDA Warns of Additional Problems and Risks
When evidence conflicted with Merck’s original assertion that the sexual side effects of Propecia would stop once treatment ends, the FDA required the manufacturer to revise the drug’s safety label accordingly.

In 2011, the FDA called for a warning that erectile dysfunction may continue after the drug is no longer being used.

The following year, the agency published results from an investigation into the adverse effects of finasteride. Using data collected from 1998 to 2011, the agency identified persistent sexual dysfunction of at least three months in 14 percent of the 421 evaluated cases.

After the April 2012 investigation, the FDA required Merck to change Propecia’s label to include reports of libido, ejaculation and orgasm disorders that continued even after men stopped taking the drug. The label says 1 percent or more of men who used the drug experienced one or more of these three side effects.

The FDA also ordered Merck to add information about reports of male infertility and poor semen quality. The label description included information that the fertility and semen issues improved or returned to normal after men quit taking the drug."

Propecia: Uses & Warnings for Finasteride

Common prednisone side effects include nausea, weight gain and headache. More serious side effects include fetal toxicity and allergic reactions.

www.drugwatch.com

Propecia Lawsuits - Sexual Dysfunction Claims & Litigation History

Men who suffered from sexual dysfunction or other side effects after taking Propecia have sued the drug’s maker, Merck & Co.

www.drugwatch.com

"Drugwatch.com writers follow rigorous sourcing guidelines and cite only trustworthy sources of information, including peer-reviewed journals, court records, academic organizations, highly regarded nonprofit organizations, government reports and interviews with qualified experts. Review our editorial policy to learn more about our process for producing accurate, current and balanced content."

A few things since you’re constantly posting this wall of finasteride hate text.

1) Any large enough company will settle out of court to avoid legal fees. Regardless of whether or not they would win in the end. It doesn’t mean anything.

2) Obviously there are sides, the important thing to note though is if those sides differ too much from controls and if they’re persistent. Your links themselves admit that it’s only around 1% of people who experience persistent side effects. And those side effects can range from ED to slightly reduced libido.

3) for those persistent sides, why exactly do you blame the drug here? Clearly if their sides are persistent then their dht should continue to be low and their hair loss should stop. But nope, their hair loss continues despite their lingering sides. How interesting... all of the effects but the hair maintenance ones conveniently still linger in PFS sufferers.

 

[Nebula74]

Am I right in saying that I'm developing into a NW3? It looks like it from these pics. I think I may be slightly fucked. I'm hopping on finasteride ASAP

A few things since you’re constantly posting this wall of finasteride hate text.

1) Any large enough company will settle out of court to avoid legal fees. Regardless of whether or not they would win in the end. It doesn’t mean anything.

2) Obviously there are sides, the important thing to note though is if those sides differ too much from controls and if they’re persistent. Your links themselves admit that it’s only around 1% of people who experience persistent side effects. And those side effects can range from ED to slightly reduced libido.

3) for those persistent sides, why exactly do you blame the drug here? Clearly if their sides are persistent then their dht should continue to be low and their hair loss should stop. But nope, their hair loss continues despite their lingering sides. How interesting... all of the effects but the hair maintenance ones conveniently still linger in PFS sufferers.

 

[BurningCoals]

Am I right in saying that I'm developing into a NW3? It looks like it from these pics. I think I may be slightly fucked. I'm hopping on finasteride ASAP

That looks like barely a NW2 tbh. A true NW3 is when the recession extends all the way to your ears, think something similar to Bill Murray in Ghostbusters (the good one).

There aren't really a lot of guys who develop like a true NW3 as described above. Most seem to recede to a NW2-2.5, and then the temples start curving inwards, or they start balding at the crown, or they just get diffuse thinning all over.

Though I do think the Norwood scale is pretty ambiguous, many people's recession can look worse than it really is due to forehead size for example.

 

[Selb]

Am I right in saying that I'm developing into a NW3? It looks like it from these pics. I think I may be slightly fucked. I'm hopping on finasteride ASAP

If those smaller hairs in the corners go away you’ll be maybe a Norwood 1.5 or 2. Which is fine tbh. I wouldn’t go crazy just yet

 

[Nebula74]

Though I do think the Norwood scale is pretty ambiguous, many people's recession can look worse than it really is due to forehead size for example.

Yep lol, I've got a fivehead already, I think it exacerbates the NW2, that's why I panicked lmao

 

[Nebula74]

.

Thanks for this, it's definitely getting thinner, I don't think I want to take chances with waiting any longer, think I am gonna hop on finasteride ASAP. I think 0.5mg ED would be a sufficient dose for me

 

[Nebula74]

Am diffuse thinning too. I'm fucked lol. Looks like hair systems are my only hope

 

[Nebula74]

Take Dutasteride

Am 18 brah. I can't do that. I'm just gonma go for a hair system

 

[NickyA]

Am diffuse thinning too. I'm fucked lol. Looks like hair systems are my only hope

Look man a single picture isn't enough to know whether you are diffuse thinning or not. Most of the experienced users here would probably ask you to post a couple pictures, some with harsh lighting or wet hair too. There's also the possibility that your hair has always been like that and you just noticed it now too... Personally I believe the guys who think that a buzzcut tends to show your future pattern if you stay for 5 years or so without any treatments. So if it worries you a lot just get a very short buzzcut (Number 2 or number 1) and check how it looks, I went the extra mile and shaved to a close no guard because I wanted to see my headshape fully and if I had any indentations, birthmarks or that sort of thing.

 

[Nebula74]

Look man a single picture isn't enough to know whether you are diffuse thinning or not. Most of the experienced users here would probably ask you to post a couple pictures, some with harsh lighting or wet hair too. There's also the possibility that your hair has always been like that and you just noticed it now too... Personally I believe the guys who think that a buzzcut tends to show your future pattern if you stay for 5 years or so without any treatments. So if it worries you a lot just get a very short buzzcut (Number 2 or number 1) and check how it looks, I went the extra mile and shaved to a close no guard because I wanted to see my headshape fully and if I had any indentations, birthmarks or that sort of thing.

Hey man, I know you think I'm over reacting, but here is a pic of my scalp when wet. I've been losing 40+ hairs a day recently, it's like the stress from knowing I'm losing my hair is speeding it up. It's pretty obviously diffuse. The pics are blurry, but they are from videos. I'm so screwed man.

 

[NickyA]

Hey man, I know you think I'm over reacting, but here is a pic of my scalp when wet. I've been losing 40+ hairs a day recently, it's like the stress from knowing I'm losing my hair is speeding it up. It's pretty obviously diffuse. The pics are blurry, but they are from videos. I'm so screwed man.

I know little about diffuse thinning so you'll have to wait for someone more knowledgeable than me sadly. Sometimes shampoo can make your hair look weird too, and wet hair+harsh lighting will always show everything at its worst too, sometimes even guys with great hair can look bad that way.

And people without hair loss lose between 20 to 100 hairs per day, how much you lose per day doesn't matter that much in the long run, but whether you stay at baseline, improve or worsen. I'd start worrying if I lost 80+ hairs though. If you're worried about diffusing you could check your family's history too: Most of the time men who suffer from aggressive diffuse thinning have very dramatic stories, such as finding lots of hairs on their pillow daily, losing tons of hair in the shower, going from having great hair to almost bald in a few years, etc. This is unlike the average receder who usually remembers thinking his hair was odd looking, not thinking much about it for 4-5 years, then doing some treatments (Usually without much luck since Finasteride was FDA approved for hair loss in 1998) then worsening to noticeably balding/quite bald in a couple years.

 

[Nebula74]

And people without hair loss lose between 20 to 100 hairs per day, how much you lose per day doesn't matter that much in the long run, but whether you stay at baseline, improve or worsen. I'd start worrying if I lost 80+ hairs though. If you're worried about diffusing you could check your family's history too: Most of the time men who suffer from aggressive diffuse thinning have very dramatic stories, such as finding lots of hairs on their pillow daily, losing tons of hair in the shower, going from having great hair to almost bald in a few years, etc. This is unlike the average receder who usually remembers thinking his hair was odd looking, not thinking much about it for 4-5 years, then doing some treatments (Usually without much luck since Finasteride was FDA approved for hair loss in 1998) then worsening to noticeably balding/quite bald in a couple years.

Hey, so I was talking to my mum, and apparently my maternal grandfather went bald in a time span of 3 years, in his late 30s. Which means thing aren't looking good for me. I'm seriously considering hair systems, because the top of my head when wet looks like a rat. It looks quite diffuse. I'm getting a finasteride prescription on the 27th when I get my bloods back. This entire process has been extremely stressful on me, so I'm sorry if I sound like I'm panicking. If I were just 1 year older, I'd be able to have everything under control, but my parents refuse to offer me any help whatsoever, so idk what to do. I'm about to say f*** it and just use the min they confiscated

 

[NickyA]

Chill dude, you're only 18 and your hair looks fine. As I've written before, your hair looks good and I doubt you'll be much worse in 3 or even 5 years. You've already taken the most important step which is paying attention to your hair and seriously considering hair loss prevention. 18 is way too young for having to start seriously thinking about this sorta stuff but it's better to deal with it sooner rather than later since it's far easier to maintain and regrow a bit than to regrow from a NW3.5, 4 or 5 to a NW2 without a transplant.

I agree with Selb that it's better if you can get your parents on board with this, they sound like they care about you and are just worried due to health reasons since you're still young, but you're already old enough to decide what to do with your body. I doubt they'll let you take finasteride if they took your minoxidil bottle so if you're seriously planning to start taking it you better hide it well. Most members and myself would suggest sticking with microxidil, ketoconazole shampoo and microneedling at the most till you're 19 or 20 but it's your choice at the end.

 

[Nebula74]

Hair fall from when I brushed my hair today

 

[Swarleyd]

Does the shedded hairs have a black or white bulb ?

 

[Nebula74]

Does the shedded hairs have a black or white bulb ?

No

 

[Micky_007]

A few things since you’re constantly posting this wall of finasteride hate text.

1) Any large enough company will settle out of court to avoid legal fees. Regardless of whether or not they would win in the end. It doesn’t mean anything.

2) Obviously there are sides, the important thing to note though is if those sides differ too much from controls and if they’re persistent. Your links themselves admit that it’s only around 1% of people who experience persistent side effects. And those side effects can range from ED to slightly reduced libido.

3) for those persistent sides, why exactly do you blame the drug here? Clearly if their sides are persistent then their dht should continue to be low and their hair loss should stop. But nope, their hair loss continues despite their lingering sides. How interesting... all of the effects but the hair maintenance ones conveniently still linger in PFS sufferers.

1) Actually, any large company has more than enough money and high up lawyers to destroy negative claims against their product. They have the money to hire the best of the best lawyers to easily fend of any accusations. If Merck was so confident in their product not causing long lasting side effects they would most definitely have fought and won the cases, also, they have the time and resources to do it all without it affecting their business production and sales in any way. So why wouldn't they fight it. Lawyers fees of a couple big thousands would most definitely not be of even the slightest problem to a company earning approximately $100 million per year only from one of their drugs (Propecia) .

2) There's only 1 link out of about 15 studies I provided that say there's 1.4% of Permanent ED sides. I specifically included that figure so people can see just how great the contrast is from several other studies who found that that figure should have been at least 14 times more. Furthermore, sexual side effects are not the only concern to many people. Mental side effects and physical side effects are of concern of many. Im literally speaking to an 18 year old now who is telling me he would never touch Finasteride due to those reasons. I actually didn't even tell him anything bad about Finasteride, he's been linking me with negative reviews and stuff at his young age. It's also because he has several doctors in his family that warned him against using it even in the future. Which is something really interesting to see how doctors will without hesitation prescribe Finasteride to patients but when it comes to their own family they would never recommend it. Very telling because even @Nebula74 mum whose a doctor did not want him using it.

I mentioned several studies which said Finasteride had enormously more negative side effects rate in the links I provided. Just to highlight the figures:


"Persistent sexual dysfunction in 14%"

"Impotence occurred in *15.8 percent* of finasteride users"

"ED was the most Frequently reported side effect"

"Loss of Libido was the most common sexual side effect"

"94% experienced a decline in Libido"

"96% still suffering sexual side effects one year later"

"44% of Propecia users experienced sexual side effects"

"The rate of depressive symptoms was 75 percent in Men"

"64% suffered moderate to severe depressive symptoms"

These are quotes from the studies I posted above just to highlight the enormous contrast in side effects rate compared to that of the FDA which is clearly corrupt.

3) I blame the drug undeniably because all these people who were trialed and found to have persistent sexual, mental or physical side effects had no such health problems before. The fact that they only experienced these health issues when the only changes they made to their life was take Finasteride clearly indicates it was Finasteride.

Also, no, just because PFS sufferers have persistent side effects does not mean that their DHT levels should be low the rest of their life. It simply means that the reduction in DHT at any point caused permanent shut down of certain bodily functions in people's bodies due to the altering of Hormone levels at anytime during the use of Finasteride, which is exponentially increased with prolonged use of Finasteride. Many people are far more sensitive to changes in hormone levels, also peoples hormone levels are known to be permanently altered after using Finasteride and it is known that altering hormone levels can often result in Hormone levels often never returning to the same. And hormone levels are highly sensitive, everything needs to be in balance, and imbalances due to Finasteride cause a ripple effect of problems. Hence its often permanent side effects.

 

[Nebula74]

What is up with my crown? Right is from two weeks ago, left is now, I'm aware the angling is slightly different, but , there's clearly more scalp visible on the new one right?