15% Minoxidil Gone - What's Next for You?

[Bryan]

Because theyre a gimmick and don't do anything. Retinol, in general is pretty weak, thats why its OTC as opposed to tretinoin which is a RX.

"Retinol" is just another word for vitamin A, and is used by some companies (in my opinion) to confuse consumers into thinking that they're talking about Retin-A, which is a prescription drug, as you said. One of the companies that does that deliberately (in my opinion) is Spectral DNC. It's a SCAM. Does anybody really think that applying vitamin A to your head grows hair??

 

[Green_Jellybean]

Thats interesting, the 5% did nothing, and the 15% did. Where you using generic kirkland minoxidil, the foam?????

I started out using Rogaine (liquid) from the chemist, but after a couple of years I swapped to Kirkland, which I ordered online (lower cost, more discreet). Unfortunately I never saw any improvement on either 5% brand.

I've never tried any foam product.

I'd like to try CB-03-01 but unfortunately it looks several years off still ... the doctor who originally suggested higher dose minoxidil has suggested Bimatoprost, so I'll see how that goes.

 

[Bryan]

Where's the trust. You don't believe me?????? lol

Just kidding, here you go
First one-----> A randomized clinical trial of 5% topical minoxidil versus 2% minoxidil and placebo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in men

Second One -----> A mutlicenter randomized placebo controlled double blind clinical trial of novel formulation of 5% minoxidil topical foam versus placebo in the treatment of androgenetic alopecia in men

The first study is a fairly common one, and doesn't have anything to do with minoxidil "foam". The second one does have to do with foam, but is very disappointing to me, because it's just a study of minoxidil foam versus placebo!! That still doesn't address, or have anything to do with how standard Rogaine solutions compare with Rogaine Foam. Do you know of any other studies that compare them directly?

 

[franky123]

Theres no study that directly test foam to solution, but both are using a randomized, clinical, double blind study, testing the same area of the scalp, same general norwood patterns, and same age groups and ethnicities. Basically, the test subjects are identical, using the same test parameters. They also tested the same area of the scalp( 1cm2), same region of the scalp ( the vertex), used at the same frequencies, and tested non-velus hair count using a fixed lighting position for before after studies. They were also both tested by clinical doctors. The foam had a better "user perception" of effectiveness, while the solution didn't. However, the clinicians gave the same general rating(~60% grew hair on both studies, except that the solution grew more hair than the foam).
Also note that in the placebo group on the foam only, a whopping 50% of the patients "perceived" that it was working, while the investigators didn't( this didn't happen with the solution). Which means that the foam had a thickening effect which made it look better cosmetically in the placebo group. There's a outlying factor here.

By looking at the results and testing parameters/conditions, you can make a safe assumption that at the 16 week mark, the solution grew more hair than the foam, even though they were not tested head to head. Theres a reason why they stopped at the 16 week mark on the foam. Because at the 2 year mark, they would have most likely returned to baseline on average and stabalized. Its still effective, because hair loss would have continued on the placebo group, but the results weren't as great as the old solution.

 

[Jacob]

You guys could also look into liposomal versions of minoxidil..as it's been shown that less minoxidil in a liposomal or other encapsulating tech vehicle is needed compared to a "regular vehicle" minoxidil. There are examples of this with non-minoxidil ingreds as well. In fact...in another hair-related one..."With the example of the hardly water-soluble immuno suppressant Ciclosporin A this has also been shown in an animal model for Alopecia areata: hairless rats which had been topically treated with liposomally encapsulated Ciclosporin A regained a normal fur growth within only a few weeks. Other preparations in which Cyclosporin A had been applied in presence of classical penetration agents as alcohol did however not show any effect at the same test conditions"

BLOCK-COPOLYMER NANOPARTICLE FOR FOLLICULAR DELIVERY OF HAIRDRUGS

Won-seok Park, Jong-won Shim, Dae-seok Sung, Dae-kwon Kim, Chang-hoon Lee, Yong-chul Shim

AmorePacific R&D Center, Yongin-si, Korea

The hair follicle is acknowledged to be a complex, dynamic structure which may contribute significantly to passive transport of compounds into the scalp. To elucidate the improved delivery of hair drugs such as minoxidil and cyclosporin A(CsA) with the use of nanoparticles, we developed a follicular delivery system based on the self-assembled block-copolymer(PCG-101) nanoparticle.

Self-assembled nanoparticles and phosphatidylcholine liposomes (330 nm) containing minoxidil & CsA were prepared. The distribution pattern of fluorescence dye (rubrene), entrapped in block-copolymer and liposome, was observed in dorsal guinea pig skin and hamster ear using confocal microscopy. The two penetrated drugs were measured using the Franz diffusion cell with rodent skins. Also, the anagen induction & elongation activities of the two drugs, entrapped in nano-particles, were observed using female C57bl/6 mice in the telogen phase.

We observed that insoluble rubrene fluorescence dye, entrapped in nanoparticles, penetrated via the pilosebaceous pathway in guinea pig skin and hamster ear region. In the Franz cell experiment, minoxidil, which was entrapped in nanoparticles of the 40 nm size, diffused significantly more in hairy guinea pig skin +/- by 1.8~2.4 fold +/- compared to those in liposome and ethanol solution. There was no significant difference in the activity of anagen induction of C57BL/6 mouse between 3 % minoxidil solution (propylene glycol and ethanol) and 0.5 % minoxidil nanoparticle solution. Also, the same dose (0.2%) of CsA, entrapped in nanoparticles, showed higher activities of anagen elongation compared to CsA dissolved in ethanol & polyol solution.

On the basis of in vitro and in vivo experimental models, block-copolymer nanoparticles can be effectively used as a permeation shunt system via pilosebaceous units in substitution for liposomes.

 

[Bryan]

Theres no study that directly test foam to solution...

If that's true, a lot of guys on various hairloss Web sites are in for a rude awakening, because it's been stated (or strongly implied) that Rogaine Foam is more effective than ordinary Rogaine! I've even seen specific numbers stated: "Rogaine Foam is xx% more effective than standard Rogaine", or whatever the number supposedly is. Starting several months ago when I was asked if that were true, I said: "I don't know. I haven't seen any studies comparing the two." I'm glad I was skeptical and cautious!

 

[franky123]

When they say 85%, they're talking about subject perception, not the clinicians...

Heres the results, one is the subjects, which is highlighted in blue.
The %'s are in the brackets() on the right next to the numbers. You'll see that the subject perception of hair growth adds to 85%.

You can clearly see, the actual assessment by the clinician using a GPR( using global photographic view), is closer to around 40%, which is less than the minoxidil solution.

Ironically, in the subject assesment, 40% believed that they grew hair in the PLACEBO group.....lol
This is obviously because of the cosmetic effects. So when you take into consideration that half the people in the actual 5% foam group are simply experiencing cosmetic enhancements( because of the roughly 40% placebo effect), it means that only half actually grew hair, which matches the figures of the GPR, meaning only 40% only really grew hair. See, don't you love math.

BTW, the amount of hair grown is also less than the solution. So essentially, less people respond, and the ones that do grow less hair.

 

[tedlin01]

Anyone heard about GENHEAR MINOXIDIL 15% WITH AZELAIC ACID 5%?

http://shop.genhair.com/store/index.php ... ducts_id=4

 

[azuri]

interesting...

ive been trying to send them an email to see if its for real but it keeps on bouncing back??? maybe something wrong on my end? Would be good if they were ligit.

 

[Alhairmist]

Just managed to place an order from Minoxidilmax broken website. I checked out the stuff i saved in my cart before. I hope they will honor my order. unk:

 

[seneca]

Just checking out minoxidilmax' website and there are several different sorts, some with propylene glycol some without. How does this affect the product?

 

[thinincrown]

Hi Bryan,

Thanks for your reply. I am confused however as it is my understanding that Azelaic Acid has been shown to be a fairly stable and potent inhibitor of DHT production in the scalp. Here is some info I found on that:

Azelaic acid may be useful as a hair growth stimulant. A research report by Stamatiadis in 1988 suggested that azelaic acid (and combinations of it and zinc ion and vitamin B6) was a strong type I 5-alpha reductase (5-AR) inhibitor. [...]

Abstract of Stamatiadis' 1988 study:

Br J Dermatol 1988 Nov;119(5):627-632 Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid.

Stamatiadis D, Bulteau-Portois MC, Mowszowicz I

The effects of zinc sulphate and azelaic acid on 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin were studied using an in vitro assay with 1,2[3H]-testosterone as substrate. When added at concentrations of 3 or 9 mmol/l, zinc was a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase activity. At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity. Azelaic acid was also a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase; inhibition was detectable at concentrations as low as 0.2 mmol/l and was complete at 3 mmol/l. An additive effect of the two inhibitors was observed. Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc, but not of azelaic acid, suggesting that two different mechanisms are involved. When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained. If this inhibition is confirmed in vivo, zinc sulphate combined with azelaic acid could be an effective agent in the treatment of androgen related pathology of human skin.

Look at the part of the sentence at the end of the Stamatiadis abstract which I've been careful to underline for emphasis! Shockingly, nobody ever seems to have noticed that the ability of topical azelaic acid to inhibit 5a-reductase has NEVER been confirmed in vivo; not in humans, not even in laboratory animals like mice, rats, or guinea pigs. Until that actually happens, I don't think it's wise just to assume that topical azelaic acid is going to serve as a worthwhile agent to fight male pattern baldness.

Dr Proctor, err Bryan,

As far as I'm concerned just because YOU don't think it's "supposed" to work doesn't mean sh*t to me or anyone else. Especially those who have seen improvement using it either in cream or or mixed w/ minoxidil

 

[thinincrown]

Murray Avenue Pharmacy should be able to formulate any minoxidil combo you want. I have tried the 5% azelaic and it was super clean.

Dont know if they will still be able to formulate a 15% liquid but they told me that 15% wasnt stable in a liquid anyway only in a lotion or cream.

I say just use 3 ml's of 5% and you should be about at 1 ml of 15%

 

[hairhoper]

Actually as much as I hate Bryan's blatant shilling of Proctor's products I do agree there's no proof azelaic acid does anything.

HOWEVER it does seem to be a reasonable vehicle for high % minoxidil, so if that's what you're after, who the f*** cares

 

[Jacob]

I don't think the company is working on this anymore...but...

"There is currently no topical therapy to influence the production of sebum and thus, the treatment of oily skin and seborrhea still remains an unmet need. TU-2100 is a novel pro-drug, composed of azelaic acid and ethyl salicylate, which was designed to penetrate the pilosebaceous unit and control sebum production. In effort to test the safety and efficacy of this agent, TU-2100 10% lotion was applied twice daily for 8 weeks to the face of ten women with oily skin. Sebum excretion rates declined by 30-44%, reaching normal levels within 8 weeks of treatment in all study volunteers. Notably, neither skin irritation, nor systemic adverse reactions were noted throughout the study."

The biology of the pilosebaceous unit has attracted the attention of numerous investigators on account of its involvement in important skin functions, including hair growth and sebum excretion. Malfunctioning of the pilosebaceous unit is the cause of common skin disorders, such as acne, seborrhea, dandruff, androgenic alopecia and hirsutism. Androgen metabolism plays an important role in the control of both sebum excretion rate (SER) and keratinization patterns in the pilosebaceous unit. The enzyme 5-a -testosterone reductase is responsible for the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and DHT is known to modulate both keratin formation and sebum production.1,2,3 Reducing sebum excretion is not an easy task. In his recent review, titled "Therapy For Acne Vulgaris", J. Leyden stated: "No topical therapies influence the production of sebum".4 Indeed, clinical studies with various topical anti-acne medications, including tretinoin and other retinoids, benzoyl peroxide and azelaic acid did not reveal any significant reduction of SER in acne and seborrhea - prone subjects.5,6,7,8 Topical application of the antiandrogen, inocoterone acetate did not reduce sebum excretion either.9 Other androgen antagonists, spironolactone and17-a -propylmesterolone, produced a significant reduction in SER, which occurred 12 weeks after the initiation of topical treatment.10,11 Interestingly, oral 13-cis-retinoic acid (accutan) and oral 9-cis-retinoic acid profoundly suppressed sebum excretion, with a long-lasting residual effect,12,13,14 whereas oral tretinoin did not.15

TU-2100 (Nonanedioic acid, bis[(2-(ethoxycarbonyl)phenyl] ester) is a novel dual-action pro-drug, composed of azelaic acid and ethyl salicylate. Both pro-drug components possess anti-acne properties, however, due to their hydrophilic character, they barely penetrate the skin and thus, their therapeutic benefits are limited. By contrast, TU-2100 is highly lipophylic and readily penetrates the follicle. Non-specific esterases in the skin hydrolyze this pro-drug and liberate its components to exert their effects inside their target site of action. Consequently, azelaic acid may then act via its 5-a -reductase inhibiting property (hitherto revealed only in vitro)16,17 and exert its keratolytic and antibacterial effects.17 Salicylic acid contributes to the therapeutic effect by its keratolytic and anti-inflammatory properties. In vivo studies, using the rabbit ear model, revealed that this agent was comedolytic, without the skin irritation which is typical to other potent anti-acne medications, such as Retin A®.18 In vitro studies have demonstrated that TU-2100 inhibits keratinocyte proliferation, thus supporting the in vivo results. The above-mentioned observations led us to initiate human studies, aimed to assess the safety of topically applied TU-2100 and to evaluate its effect on sebum excretion.

n all volunteers, baseline sebum excretion levels on the forehead were higher than those detected on the nasolabial area of the cheek. Baseline SER measurements indicated oily to very-oily forehead skin and oily skin at the nasolabial region of the cheek (% Areas covered by spots = 8.4 ± 1.1 and 6.2 ± 0.4, respectively). Mean sebum excretion rates after 4 weeks of repeated TU-2100 10% application, declined 33% (forehead) and 26% (cheek) and reached normal values in all the participants. Following 8 weeks of treatment, SER was 56% and 70% of the baseline values at the forehead and cheek, respectively (Figure 1). These decreases in sebum excretion rate were statistically significant at a 95% confidence level and with p values of ; Normal: 4-6.5%; Oily: 6.5-9%; Very Oily:>9%)

http://pharmalicensing.com/public/articles/view/949514185_38986fc914957

 

[Bryan]

TU-2100 was discontinued some time ago, unfortunately. Interestingly, though, I think I personally used the article above to challenge Dr. Lee's conviction at the time that topical azelaic acid was a whiz-bang 5a-reductase inhibitor! Didn't do any good, though; he continued to sell it in "Xandrox", thinking it was the cat's pajamas!

 

[Jacob]

Yeah..sure Bryan. I'm sure that worked out very well for you :shock:

Speaking of cat's pajamas..I guess that'd make Proctor's- Cat's Piss. Thanks for once again pointing out that you go after a competitor of Proctors...asking for evidence or pointing out the lack of such evidence...while peddling Prox and Nano which also contain ingreds that have no evidence behind them.

It's funny how you can take what you say and just substitute Lee and Xandrox etc for Proctor and Prox etc: Didn't do any good, though; he continued to sell "Proxiphen", thinking it was the cat's pajamas!

 

[Bryan]

It's not so much that I "go after" a competitor of Dr. Proctor's; it's that I "go after" an easy and simple-minded effort to sell something on the Internet that has no more research on it than THAT. It was just something based on an in vitro study, and Dr. Lee thought he could jump on that right away, and start selling it and making TONS of $$$ on it! (And that's even DESPITE the statement in the in vitro study itself cautioning that it needed to be verified in vivo, first!) I couldn't make this stuff up!

 

[Jacob]

And you couldn't make up that stuff when it comes to Dr Proctor either. Oh wait... you do :woot:

It still sure sounds like a lot more evidence than there is for NANO..or many of the other things Proctor has his cute little patents on. So yes..you do "go after" a competitor of Proctor's..while pushing Proctor's crap that has the same non-evidence for claims being made.

 

[thinincrown]

Ive seen way more posts of people having success using Dr Lee's products over the years than Dr Proctors.... nuff said

I think azelaic acid help minoxidil penetrate better thus increasing it's effectiveness. That being said I still believe that nanosome technology is the best way to get minoxidil into the follicle....