2 Dutas a week?

[Andrea]

In Italy a famous Doctor prescribes 1mg (2 capsules) twice/week and his patients seems to be satisfied...

 

[Bryan]

I would say that all of them except the bottom right a relatively steady - a small (not macroscopic) fluctuation around an already large deflection. However, i have never queried whether DHT levels are relatively steady, i have always qualified my concerns with using the term when discussing the level of change of the DRUG ITSELF in the body, as per my interpretation of the chart with your pencilled in line which does not mention DHT.

Sure, but the two tend to go hand-in-hand.

So can you confirm. Is the chart (with the 0.5mg pencil line) describing 'steady state' drug level in the body?

Yes.

Also more and more links with data are coming out of the woodwork. Can you please post a full list of study/prediction links of original data where possible. You may have done it before but i've not been here long.

Here are all the ones I currently have that relate directly to dutasteride:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride ... gh-res.htm
(DHT reduction after various single doses -- high-res version)

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride ... ow-res.htm
(DHT reduction after various single doses -- low-res version)

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2b.htm
(DHT reduction versus various daily doses) (small version that I posted recently)

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2.htm
(DHT reduction versus various daily doses) (larger version of previous graph)

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride3.htm
(Time to achieve steady-state versus dose) (the other one I posted recently)

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride4.htm
(serum dutasteride concentration vs. DHT reduction) (This is my favorite of all the graphs. I took the liberty of personally adding the three vertical dashed lines on the X-axis which correspond to daily doses of 0.1 mg, 0.5 mg, and 2.5 mg. The smallest and largest doses are positioned where I personally estimate them to be, while the middle dose is positioned at the blood concentration specified by Glaxo in their technical literature.)

Now, I have a question for you. Is there a financially viable test (may be blood test) that may suggest/infer if DHT levels are low enough to not play a significant role in male pattern baldness after taking a drug?

Nope. The only thing I've seen even remotely resembling such a thing would be Merck's "dose-ranging" trial of different doses of finasteride, and their effect on haircounts and serum DHT levels. I've posted the link to that in the past.

 

[dut]

Sure, but the two tend to go hand-in-hand..

Nope. At low level high freqency i would agree but at low frequency when a small dose is taken (0.5mg x 2/per week) there is only a few percent change in DHT but 100% change in Drug level in the body. After 6 months of at high dose regime you could you could even take random amounts of 1mg day1, 5mg day2, skip 2 days, 2.5 mg day5 etc (stupid just to prove a point) and the DHT supression would be virtually unchanged over time. The response delay, smoothing effect, etc that the body creates on DHT levels is the smoothing algorithm i was talking about on a previous post. However no one would dream of calling such a random regime as steady state despite the relatively smooth DHT supression.

Here are all the ones I currently have that relate directly to dutasteride:

Thanks. I will see what i can work out from these. Any original links without distorted pics?

Nope. The only thing I've seen even remotely resembling such a thing would be Merck's "dose-ranging" trial of different doses of finasteride, and their effect on haircounts and serum DHT levels. I've posted the link to that in the past.

If you type 'DHT test' in google there are a few links offering a test for < $100. Are none of these any good?

 

[Andrea]

Have you ever controlled your DHT level under fina or dutasteride?

When I was under fina I controlled my serum level of DHT every 6 months and the value was ALWAYS in the middle of the range but I was a good responder !!!!
I think (and some doctors) that the serum level is not a reliable value...
These drugs works slowly where is needed...
Even my father who takes the drug to IPB has good result on PSA but DHT is normal...
Some people seems to have the same experience with Dutasteride.
It's hard to believe but is real...

 

[Bryan]

Sure, but the two tend to go hand-in-hand..

Nope. At low level high freqency i would agree but at low frequency when a small dose is taken (0.5mg x 2/per week) there is only a few percent change in DHT but 100% change in Drug level in the body.

Which is why I was careful to say that the two tend to go hand-in-hand, especially at the lower doses that seem to be increasingly popular on these forums.

BTW, it would be interesting to see that regimen (0.5 mg x 2/per week) actually plotted and graphed by Gisleskog and his colleagues in the same way they did their other graphs. There's always a certain amount of guesswork when we try to interpolate or extrapolate from the published ones, and I can't help but wonder just HOW few "a few percent change in DHT" actually is!

After 6 months of at high dose regime you could you could even take random amounts of 1mg day1, 5mg day2, skip 2 days, 2.5 mg day5 etc (stupid just to prove a point) and the DHT supression would be virtually unchanged over time.

Well, the "after 6 months" part doesn't really have anything to do with it. All that really matters is the average amount that you take over a reasonable period of time (a week or two), as long as that average dose is high enough.

When Avodart first became available, I was constantly seeing posts from newbies who were saying things like, "I'm going to take 5 Avodart capsules (2.5 mg) once every 5 days, and because of dutasteride's long half-life, that will be the same as if I were taking 2.5 mg every day!" Seriously, that's what people kept saying, and I was spending a lot of my time countering that fallacious reasoning! :mrgreen:

The response delay, smoothing effect, etc that the body creates on DHT levels is the smoothing algorithm i was talking about on a previous post. However no one would dream of calling such a random regime as steady state despite the relatively smooth DHT supression.

Sure, _I_ would call it steady-state, as long as the same average amount of dutasteride is taken every week or so. Why not?? It doesn't make any difference how you divide it up from day-to-day.

Here are all the ones I currently have that relate directly to dutasteride:

Thanks. I will see what i can work out from these. Any original links without distorted pics?

Those are scans that I did myself of the graphs from the Gisleskog et al studies. Sorry if they're not high-enough resolution for you, but I have to carefully conserve both the storage space and the bandwidth that are available to me on my rather limited free Geocities account. I have to keep my scans to a rather minimal size/resolution.

Nope. The only thing I've seen even remotely resembling such a thing would be Merck's "dose-ranging" trial of different doses of finasteride, and their effect on haircounts and serum DHT levels. I've posted the link to that in the past.

If you type 'DHT test' in google there are a few links offering a test for < $100. Are none of these any good?

I don't know how reliable such online DHT tests are (hell, I don't even have all THAT much confidence in the accuracy and repeatability of the blood tests that you get when going to your regular doctor), but in any event, that's a different question from the one you asked before, which is whether or not there is a test to determine how low you'd have to get your DHT specifically to avoid hair loss.

 

[powersam]

When Avodart first became available, I was constantly seeing posts from newbies who were saying things like, "I'm going to take 5 Avodart capsules (2.5 mg) once every 5 days, and because of dutasteride's long half-life, that will be the same as if I were taking 2.5 mg every day!" Seriously, that's what people kept saying, and I was spending a lot of my time countering that fallacious reasoning! :mrgreen:

but dutasteride is magic, and has a magical half life which means 5 times 5 equals 125. and you call yourself a hair loss expert :shakehead:

 

[Andrea]

Even in the IPB the doctors suggests a less dosage of Avodart (3,4/weeks)....
To hairloss 2 caps/week is OK...
The level of DHT in rhe blood is not important.
Bye

 

[chino20]

What do people think about using 2 dutas capsules per week combined with 1/4 proscar per day?

 

[Timi]

in ouer Page more take Dayli finasteride and all 5Days one dutasteride
with good success

Timi

 

[dut]

What do people think about using 2 dutas capsules per week combined with 1/4 proscar per day?

I read Pondle's response to a similar question on another web site when he suggested this type regime for himself.
He basicaly agreed that on paper, if our understanding of how it works on male pattern baldness is correct, AND the Dutas is genuine, there would be no real benefit of taking the finasteride on top.
I think that some people who have had some success with finasteride but want to go one better with dutasteride may end up in a dutasteride v's finasteride confidence/gamble/dilema, so carry on with finasteride just incase the dutasteride doesn't work for what ever reason.

 

[chino20]

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I want to continue proscar since I've used it for so long and don't want to quit it, and I fear that if I switched to just dutas it has the possibility of being fake and the possibility it doesn't work/2 isn't enough to counter the effects of quitting proscar.

So other than the reason that taking finasteride on top of dutasteride might yield no further benefit, is there any other reason not to do that?

Dutas is cheap enough for this to be a real option I think.

 

[dut]

So other than the reason that taking finasteride on top of dutasteride might yield no further benefit, is there any other reason not to do that?

Some people wont take a drug that's prescribed to them.

Others will take genuine propecia without prescription and accept the risk after FDA approval.

Others will take generic finasteride at risk without presciption bought over the internet at risk.

It's a further jump to take genuine prescribed Avodart when not FDA approved and the drug regime for hairloss not decided. Remember, the level of finasteride was reduced from 5mg/day to 1mg for hairloss whilst 0.5mg dutasteride is approved for the prostate, not hair loss.

*Another jump in risk is take generic dutasteride bought over the internet when not prescribed on a drug regime that is not FDA approved. My guess this covers a large group of dutasteride users for hairloss.

Then there are the big risk takers. They take the compound 1.25mg generic finasteride per day (intead of 1mg) bought over the internet without prescription, then on top of that add generic dutasteride again bought over the net without prescription on a non FDA approved regime. The people who do this one can't justify it technically. They often justify on a confidence level hoping that at least one of there non prescribed drugs is genuine and will do the trick. If you believe in the dutasteride then why add finasteride at further risk if it cant give any further benefit? We are no where near FDA approval for the combined drug regime and it may never happen! Some people also consider that the cost of both generics is still cheaper than genuine Avodart.

So what happens after your after your success with your top 3 products finasteride or dutasteride + Min + nizoral?
Which one did the buisness and which had no effect at all. Do i really want to drop one at a time to find out or just keep using them all?

It becomes a cost v's risk v's desperation dilema after reading material mainly on the net. You will get extremes of opinion mixed with scientific evidence and there are no right answers.

If money was no object, and you are prepared to take the risk of genuine dutasteride, and keeping your hair is VERY important to you, then i'd find someone to prescribe Avodart or pay a hypnotist to convince me it didn't matter.

*I do this one (Dutas 2/week) bought from inhouse. I loaded at 0.5mg per day for 15 days assuming a 35 day half life which i later learnt from Bryans graphs was more than required because the half life at only 0.14mg/day (2/week) is only around 3 days, so i probably only needed around a 5 day load up.

Now i have a question. I bought my dutasteride in April 07 before i found this site. Do the majority of dutasteride users that aren't prepared to pay for Avodart (with or without prescription) think that Dutas from inhouse is the highest confidence option or can anyone justify another source (which is not unfounded opinion)?

Some of my tips on cost saving purchases. If you buy from islandcosmetics.com such as revita then use code disc5ic at the checkout for 5% off. Also go through quidco.com to save a further 5%. If you buy from mankind.co.uk then go through quidco for 10% off. If you buy from inhousepharmacy then use the US site (.com) which is cheaper than the UK site. Eg; 180 caps of dutas cost £98.74 on Uk site but on the US site it is $180 (£90). They still get posted from the same place and you pay the royal mail / customs charge. It's worth looking up hotdeals and quidco in google for anything else you buy and want to save money on.

Anyone else got any SERIOUS cost saving hairloss products tips other than a opting for a very short hairstyle?

 

[hair_tomorrow]

For what it's worth - this is just personal experience . . .

After almost a year of a hard-core regimen which included 1mg finasteride evey day, I had gone from a 5A to a 4A/5. Life was looking good w/ increased density and my bald spot filling in.

I modified my regimen somewhat, dropping a few 2nd tier topicals and supplements, and switching from 1 mg finasteride every day to dutasteride 2x per week & finasteride 2x per week. Ater 4 - 5 months I regressed again back to a 5A.

So in my instance - dutasteride 2x per week plus finasteride 2x per week wasn't as good as finasteride every day.

I've since cranked up my regimen and I'm still trying to recover.