A diffuse thinner's story

[Mindfull]

I am sure you are in a similar predicament as I am. Finasteride, to be honest, is the best thing out there for hair loss. At the age of 22, I can't drop it, especially since I have taken it for more than 4 years. The best we can do is combat the side effects (and potential side effects) by taking supplements. Bleh.

D.

But do you actually have side effects - or have you just read so much about the potential side effects that you virtually anticipating them. Most people as you most prob know dont have any side effects from taking finasteride, what so ever. I have never heard of 5AR II (finasteride) interacting with neural processes. Nor have I heard of mental side effects from using finasteride.

 

[drinkrum]

I am sure you are in a similar predicament as I am. Finasteride, to be honest, is the best thing out there for hair loss. At the age of 22, I can't drop it, especially since I have taken it for more than 4 years. The best we can do is combat the side effects (and potential side effects) by taking supplements. Bleh.

D.

But do you actually have side effects - or have you just read so much about the potential side effects that you virtually anticipating them. Most people as you most prob know dont have any side effects from taking finasteride, what so ever. I have never heard of 5AR II (finasteride) interacting with neural processes. Nor have I heard of mental side effects from using finasteride.

The side effects are real. I never have morning wood. This is not something I can trick myself into thinking. Ejaculate is noticeably less, erections are softer. The price we pay for vanity.

D.

 

[drinkrum]

[quote="drinkrum":163e9][quote="Bismarck":163e9][quote="drinkrum":163e9]I see. In my research, finasteride does not interfere with DHEA levels. Do you find the same result, Bis?

D.

No idea. I don't know yet what to make out of this ALLO thing.

According to Merck, at the 1 mg/day level, finasteride only significantly alters DHT level. T and E2 increase at first, but generally this tapers off. Humorously, Merck won't let anyone see their original dataset. Ask Bryan about it.

D.

They did a lot of research concering finasteride and bone health or so but nothing with the brain 8)
If I remember correctly GSK doesn't mention mental sides on dutasteride. Surprinsingly, there are so many posters around saying they've got such problems ... strange.

When I learned GSK canceled trials of dutasteride for male pattern baldness, I had a gut feeling it was due to weird side effects. Their rationale that dutasteride wouldn't do well in the market, etc. was bogus. If this was the case, they never would have put all the millions of dollars into the trials in the first place. And dutasteride does grow much more hair than finasteride. So why would they cancel the trials? Only if they realized that there were some important issues with blocking DHT completely and especially from inhibiting 5-AR I.

D.

Well said. I think you are right on all accounts. It's really strange that they had to go into Phase III (two times) until they realized the cost throwing it against male pattern baldness on the market won't be amortized. :shock:[/quote:163e9]

Hey Bis,

In the meanwhile, I am going to start taking GABA supplements. It is extremely cheap: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=600. Also, I am going to take 7-OXO-DHEA.

D.[/quote:163e9]

Your worried about taking 1 mg of 0,8 mg of finasteride - and then you want to take this stuff... doesnt make sense[/quote:163e9]

Of course it does. Just as taking a multivitamin makes sense. Worse comes to worst, I will just urinate all the extra GABA out.

D.

 

[Mindfull]

[quote="drinkrum":77c74]I see. In my research, finasteride does not interfere with DHEA levels. Do you find the same result, Bis?

D.

No idea. I don't know yet what to make out of this ALLO thing.

According to Merck, at the 1 mg/day level, finasteride only significantly alters DHT level. T and E2 increase at first, but generally this tapers off. Humorously, Merck won't let anyone see their original dataset. Ask Bryan about it.

D.

They did a lot of research concering finasteride and bone health or so but nothing with the brain 8)
If I remember correctly GSK doesn't mention mental sides on dutasteride. Surprinsingly, there are so many posters around saying they've got such problems ... strange.

When I learned GSK canceled trials of dutasteride for male pattern baldness, I had a gut feeling it was due to weird side effects. Their rationale that dutasteride wouldn't do well in the market, etc. was bogus. If this was the case, they never would have put all the millions of dollars into the trials in the first place. And dutasteride does grow much more hair than finasteride. So why would they cancel the trials? Only if they realized that there were some important issues with blocking DHT completely and especially from inhibiting 5-AR I.

D.

Well said. I think you are right on all accounts. It's really strange that they had to go into Phase III (two times) until they realized the cost throwing it against male pattern baldness on the market won't be amortized. :shock:[/quote:77c74]


Dont forget that dutasteride is approved for the treatment of enlarged prostata. If indeed the side effects were so weird or serious then something has been kept secret, since the side effect profile for dutasteride differs only sligtly from the one for dutasteride.

If anything is bogus it would be the clinical before/after shot from merc ... that simply cannot be true. If we could see this persons face we would probably see craters of dry skin, uncontrolled eye movements, severe facial paralysis and increased nasal hair. IM sure

 

[drinkrum]

Dutasteride is marketed as Avodart by GlaxoSmithKline, not Merck.

D.

 

[Mindfull]

[quote="Bismarck":46801][quote="drinkrum":46801][quote="Bismarck":46801][quote="drinkrum":46801]I see. In my research, finasteride does not interfere with DHEA levels. Do you find the same result, Bis?

D.

No idea. I don't know yet what to make out of this ALLO thing.

According to Merck, at the 1 mg/day level, finasteride only significantly alters DHT level. T and E2 increase at first, but generally this tapers off. Humorously, Merck won't let anyone see their original dataset. Ask Bryan about it.

D.

They did a lot of research concering finasteride and bone health or so but nothing with the brain 8)
If I remember correctly GSK doesn't mention mental sides on dutasteride. Surprinsingly, there are so many posters around saying they've got such problems ... strange.

When I learned GSK canceled trials of dutasteride for male pattern baldness, I had a gut feeling it was due to weird side effects. Their rationale that dutasteride wouldn't do well in the market, etc. was bogus. If this was the case, they never would have put all the millions of dollars into the trials in the first place. And dutasteride does grow much more hair than finasteride. So why would they cancel the trials? Only if they realized that there were some important issues with blocking DHT completely and especially from inhibiting 5-AR I.

D.

Well said. I think you are right on all accounts. It's really strange that they had to go into Phase III (two times) until they realized the cost throwing it against male pattern baldness on the market won't be amortized. :shock:[/quote:46801]

Hey Bis,

In the meanwhile, I am going to start taking GABA supplements. It is extremely cheap: http://www.bulknutrition.com/?products_id=600. Also, I am going to take 7-OXO-DHEA.

D.[/quote:46801]

Your worried about taking 1 mg of 0,8 mg of finasteride - and then you want to take this stuff... doesnt make sense[/quote:46801]

Of course it does. Just as taking a multivitamin makes sense. Worse comes to worst, I will just urinate all the extra GABA out.

D.[/quote:46801]

Alright, maybe I didnt study the product closely enough... I just triggered on the word 'dhea' ... Personally I dont have much faith in these products.... which reminds me that I once asked a scientist about the potential side effects you could expect from altering you hormonal balance with finasteride... His answer was very cautious... Ill post it here - he said something about taking a vitaminpil instead ...

Dear Mr. Alexander

Your query about the use of a specific hair-protective product is
very difficult for me to answer to. I am not a hair specialist. But
from our understanding of aging, some paradoxical results have come
forward, specially in relation to the hormones.

Hormones are very important for growth, development, maturation and
reproduction. But after the effective reproductive age from
evolution's point of view (which for human species is between 45 to
50 years), a chronic presence of high levels of some hormones appears
to be actually harmful. Specially, in the case of men, the presence
of high levels of testosterone and other steroids can be life
shortening. With animal studies also it has been observed that
presence of high circulating levels of these hormones causes more
damage than any good and lifespan is shortened.

The main trouble in extrapolating from animal studies to human
beings, and that too to any individual being is our inability to
really know what is the "normal" situation for an individual.
Extrreme high or extreme low levels of hormones and any effects of
such high/low levels can be picked up clinically, but the range of
"normal levels" is very large.

So, here you have my very scientific - which generally mean, very
cautious, reply to your question. I don't think this answer can be of
much use to you, but I am sure that some intelligent hormone
specialist clinician can judge better.

My general message is: if there are no bad/disease symptoms due to
the lack of hormones, then using extra hormones may not be doing any
good to the body, and may actually be harmful over long term.

All the best,
Suresh Rattan


--

___________________________________
Postal address:

Professor Suresh I. S. Rattan, PhD, Dr.scient.
(Editor-in-Chief, Biogerontology)

Department of Molecular Biology
University of Aarhus

 

[Mindfull]

Dutasteride is marketed as Avodart by GlaxoSmithKline, not Merck.

D.

GSK... fine. The point is the same

 

[Bismarck]

If I remember correctly, the average age of participants in the trials testing the drug for enlarged prostate was 60 ! That's a huge difference to teens with hairloss.

bis

 

[Mindfull]

If I remember correctly, the average age of participants in the trials testing the drug for enlarged prostate was 60 ! That's a huge difference to teens with hairloss.

bis

as far as Dutasteride is concerned, the trials involved:

Geriatric: No dose adjustment is necessary in the elderly. The pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of dutasteride were evaluated in 36 healthy male subjects aged between 24 and 87 years following administration of a single 5-mg dose of dutasteride. In this single-dose study, dutasteride half-life increased with age (approximately 170 hours in men aged 20 to 49 years, approximately 260 hours in men aged 50 to 69 years, and approximately 300 hours in men older than 70 years). Of 2,167 men treated with dutasteride in the 3 pivotal studies, 60% were age 65 and over and 15% were age 75 and over. No overall differences in safety or efficacy were observed between these patients and younger patients.

Read the complete statistics from the trials on dutasteride here:
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:R0 ... vodart.pdf[/quote]

 

[Old Baldy]

Sorry to change the subject but thanks for the info. Bis.

I've got to get some red clover and sophora root next. You can bet I'll be picking red clover this summer when I'm walking the dogs in the woods.

You know I need to buy an herbal book with pictures. I'll bet there are alot of beneficial plants out in the woods where I walk the dogs. I just don't know what they look like. (But I know what red clover looks like!!)

 

[Bismarck]

Sorry to change the subject but thanks for the info. Bis.

I've got to get some red clover and sophora root next. You can bet I'll be picking red clover this summer when I'm walking the dogs in the woods.

You know I need to buy an herbal book with pictures. I'll bet there are alot of beneficial plants out in the woods where I walk the dogs. I just don't know what they look like. (But I know what red clover looks like!!)

Actually a good idea to make the topicals yourself....

:freaked2: $$$ http://www.kurogrow.com/adenogen_eng.html $$$

 

[Buffboy]

Will a bottle Adenogen last you only 1 month, Bis?

And isn't it kind of weird to start selling a product without any clinical trials or some kind of official data to support it?

It doesn't even say how this stuff works...

 

[Bismarck]

Will a bottle Adenogen last you only 1 month, Bis?

And isn't it kind of weird to start selling a product without any clinical trials or some kind of official data to support it?

It doesn't even say how this stuff works...

Clinical trials are quoted in other posts in that section.

 

[Petchsky]

:freaked2: $$$ http://www.kurogrow.com/adenogen_eng.html $$$

Weird website...The FAQ is nothing but ???????????????????? all over the place.

I did a little research on the net to find out a bit more about it for mine and other posters who don't have a clue what it is,

(from stophairloss.co.uk)

14/12/2004 - Shiseido is to launch Adenogen, a new treatment for hair loss.

Adenosine is one of the in vivo substances that exists in the human body and the company’s extensive research on the substance has shown that it directly affects the hair papillae, a key part of the chemical reaction required to grow human hair. Consequently this substance influences the production of FGF-7, which is key to hair growth, and helps to speed up and encourage the process.

Japan’s Corporate News reported that from this finding Shiseido has developed a hair growth substance called Adenosine, which has been given approval as an active ingredient for medicated cosmetic products by the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare.

The company says that it plans to launch its own patented hair growth product for male pattern baldness under the name Adenogen, using Adensosine as a key ingredient. No launch date has as yet been confirmed for international markets.

Shiseido has been carrying out pioneering research into hair growth solutions from its Life Science Research Centre in Yokohama. The research team has been making advances towards a possible treatment for baldness by researching TGF-beta2, a substance that is said to influence the growth of hair cells.

The company already markets a number of leading hair-growth treatments which are sold internationally. They include its Intensive Hair Treatment Mask, which uses ingredients that replicate hair cells to build up thinning hair.

 

[Petchsky]

Also found this,

Shiseido Co. said Wednesday it will introduce a new tonic for promoting men's hair growth on March 21 based on a hair growth stimulant it has developed. Japan's largest cosmetics manufacturer said it will sell Adenogen, which contains the adenosine stimulant that enhances hair growth, for around 6,825 yen per bottle.

Shiseido said it has decided to launch the tonic after confirming the efficacy of adenosine as a key ingredient for a hair growth tonic. Of the 51 trialists of a tonic containing adenosine, more than 90 percent said that after a six-month test, they have seen the tonic enhance their hair growth.

I figure not much info has been released about it since loads of sites had the exact same info...

 

[Petchsky]

Just found something potentially interesting on a study on the lasercomb that could shed some light on this Adenosine....

"The amount of cellular energy in the form of adenosine triphosphatase (ATP) is also increased following LLLT"

The above quote is saying that adenosine is increased by using the lasercomb and could be one of the reasons it works...If that is the case then adenosine could be a product worth more attention. :wink: