A topical that works as well as Finasteride or a decent one?

[Bryan]

Just for accuracy of the specific claims being made and for the historical record, here are some of those old posts from alt.baldspot. I've cleaned them up a little and edited them for conciseness. First is a post from 1998:

--------------------------
From: Peter H. Proctor
Date: Fri, Nov 27 1998 12:00 am
Email: [email protected] (Peter H. Proctor)
Groups: alt.baldspot

(quoting a previous post by John Ertel)
>I'd encourage people to try Proxiphen, as I believe
>it works>to grow hair in some people, as it did for me.
>In my personal opinion though, people should give
>Minoxidil/Propecia a shot first for reasons of cost
>if nothing else. If they work for them, great, if not,
>they can always try Prox! =)

Actually, a lot of people we get on our program have done just this.

>My arguments with Brian have only been on his insistance that
>he can't see any reason why anybody would logically choose
>Propecia as the better treatment over Proxiphen.

Going back over this thread, it seems that you are both arguing two separate questions... His (and mine) is that Proxiphen unquestionably works significantly better than Propecia. Yours is that Propecia (and/or minoxidil) works well enough that it might be all you need. We are all correct...

Peter H. Proctor, PhD, MD
------------------------------

Ok, now fast-forward to the year 2003. I posted some questions to Dr. Proctor, and here is his response, followed by my response, followed by his further response:

--------------------------
From: Peter H. Proctor
Date: Fri, Dec 19 2003 1:57 pm
Email: Peter H. Proctor <[email protected]>
Groups: alt.baldspot

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 12:16:24 GMT, [email protected] (Bryan Shelton)
wrote:

>Dr. P, I seem to remember back a couple of years or so ago that you
>made quite a strong statement about the performance of Proxiphen,
>compared to Propecia...I believe you said that Proxiphen was
>"unquestionably more effective" than Propecia all by itself. I'd be
>curious to know how you make determinations like that.

It has workd in persons previously unresponsive to Propecia... Also, Proxiphen works in many persons previously unresonsive to minoxidil, which is arguably a little more effective than Propecia.

>Also, have you been able to observe the effects on any patients
>using Avodart (dutasteride)? How would you honestly rate the
>performance of Proxiphen, compared to dutasteride?

Can't say because I have not used Proxiphen in persons who have not responded to Dutasteride. At the moment, there do not appear to be many persons receiving this drug for hair loss, though this could change.

Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD
-----------------------------

From: Bryan Shelton
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2003 5:31 am
Email: [email protected] (Bryan Shelton)
Groups: alt.baldspot

>It has workd in persons previously unresponsive to Propecia...

Dr. P, what about the reverse of that? Have you seen anybody respond to Propecia who didn't respond to Proxiphen?

Bryan
----------

From: Peter H. Proctor
Date: Fri, Dec 26 2003 7:16 pm
Email: Peter H. Proctor <[email protected]>
Groups: alt.baldspot

>>It has workd in persons previously unresponsive to Propecia...
>
>Dr. P, what about the reverse of that? Have you seen anybody
>respond to Propecia who didn't respond to Proxiphen?

No.

Dr Proctor

 

[Bryan]

That's one of the areas where I also disagree with Dr. Proctor. I think topical spironolactone is only a rather mediocre antiandrogen.
post more pictures on his Web site.

Bryan

That is disturbing. Do you just mean it is not strong enough by itself, or do you think it would give little help to men on dutasteride? If I can get rid of all DHT, do you think spironolactone cream could give the effect of half as much testosterone?

Probably.

I try to choose my words very carefully. I didn't say that I think topical spironolactone is a BAD or TERRIBLE antiandrogen, just a mediocre one.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

That is why the prox-N has a pH of 2.2.

Did you measure that yourself?

That is about 10x as acidic as coke, but 1% as acidic as 1M hydrochloric acid. The copper sulphate is worse. But I'm not going to put straight prox-N on my scalp anymore. I'm quite annoyed DrP put zink sulfate in there.

The copper/zinc sulphates are the very last items on the ingredients list. What makes you think there's any more than just small amounts in Prox-N?

Bryan

 

[LookingGood!]

Damn i always get annoyed when I see that picture quoted next to Prox-N and NANO - it's not from Prox-n and NANO, the guy is a Proxiphen user.

Here are Bryan's pics using Prox-N

http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/photogallery/pgbryan.htm

I realy cant say that I am impressed with these photos. I mean you cAN get the "fluff" effect from any volumizing shampoo. There is no significant growth there. I cant imagine why he didnt try propecia for the crown.

 

[CCS]

That is why the prox-N has a pH of 2.2.

Did you measure that yourself?

That is about 10x as acidic as coke, but 1% as acidic as 1M hydrochloric acid. The copper sulphate is worse. But I'm not going to put straight prox-N on my scalp anymore. I'm quite annoyed DrP put zink sulfate in there.

The copper/zinc sulphates are the very last items on the ingredients list. What makes you think there's any more than just small amounts in Prox-N?

Bryan

Yes, I did measure that myself. In the lab I have pH paper (not to be confused with litmus paper). The first strip wen from 6.5 up to 8 with varying colors. A drop of clear prox-N on it made it and extreme of the 6.5 color. So I switched to one that goess from 4.5 to 7.0. Again, and extrame of the 4.5. And the colors are not the same at the bottom and top of the ranges of differernt strips. The colors are kind of random, though somewhat of a rainbow on each strip. Anyway, I then did the 2.5 to 5.0 strip, and finally the 0 to 2.5 trip, where it clearly was pH 2.2. The folligen I had that I had diluted with water by 50% was pH 6.

If that is not conclusive enough, I'll open the bottle and dip the pH probe in there. I have access to one, and I know how to calibrate it.

 

[Felk]

I still have respect for Dr. Proctor. Remember every doctor in the world from lee to klein and all doctors use various concoctions of minoxidil in different combinations.

Dr. Proctor provides alternative solutions. He is very bad in marketing and advertising.
He sells spintrap for 65$. The bottle says 1 oz. But it contains 60 ml (same size as proxiphen-N).

Also, for proxiphen-N he says 2-4 months supply. He can give a dropper and ask us to use 0.33 ml everyday (same as he recommends). His two month supply costing 60$ will come for 6 months. That is 10$ per month for prox-N and affordable for everyone.

He could say twice a day and it will still be 20$ per month. He never spent any time to trivial details like this. Also, as Bryan and others say he needs to post more pictures.

He should update and modify his website. Sometimes his online orders don't work.

All said and done, I still think prox-N will be more effective than minoxidil in the long run and finasteride/dutasteride + prox-N will stop anyone from balding further.

Great post tech, I think you should email that to Dr P, I'm sure he'd see the sense in it - he's probably just too busy to "get round" to cleaning up his site.

In relation to what Bryan says about Proctor's claims, I tend to agree with him. This is based on all I have read about Dr Proctor and his products, all my email communications with him, my own experience with his products, and all the knowledgeable posters with experience with Dr P and his "potions"

However we need to remember that his claims about his own products are always going to be favourable. Remember Dr Lee claims that azelaic acid inhibits DHT by 98%!

And when Proctor claims that he has had people who have never responded to propecia, have great results with proxiphen, remember that Dr Lee claims that his Xandrox users usually see better results than his patients on minoxidil + finasteride!

Since Bryan has met the guy he can definately make better character judgements than us, but for all of us mere "consumers" I think we should still view his claims as coming from someone selling their own product.

 

[techprof]

Felk, I agree with you he might claim more results than expected. But we are talking about someone who is pathetic with advertising and marketing. I tend to believe him more than Lee for his audacious claims about azelaic acid.

I don't agree with him about the spironolactone. spironolactone is a lousy treatment as far as I am concerned. But I expect prox-N or proxiphen to better than minoxidil alone in the long run.

I don't rate proxiphen to be better than propecia in general. Now imagine a situation, wherein the guy is balding only to NW2 or 3 according to his genetics withoug using propecia. In his case propiphen might be more effective than propecia as it contains more regrowth agents and sods.

For people like me who have aggressive male pattern baldness, propecia/dutasteride alone is unquestionably better than proxiphen (IMO) alone. Hence, I recommend a combo of finasteride/dutasteride + proxiphen. minoxidil hairs are only temporary. So there may not be any point in using minoxidil at all.

 

[CCS]

aromatases are enzymes that are coded for by DNA. They are big. We are not going to get them in our scalps. I doubt beta-sitosterol will turn testosterone into estrogen, or can we get anything that does that into our system. We can get compounds that act like estrogen, but I don't know if they will help.

My main goal is to get the testosterone out of my scalp without touching the testosterone in my body. I did some reading, and sites are claiming beta-sitosterol blocks the androgen receptor or 5ar, and saying stearic acid blocks 5ar. I don't know what to think. The revivogen site says ALA is an anti-inflammatory. I'm just going to stick with the topical spironolactone for now.

I also doubt zink ions will do much if they are bonded to OH ions. I think I'll add some potassium hydroxide to my prox-N to bring the pH up to 4. If it does not work at 4.5, it will not work inside the scalp where the pH is 4.5.

 

[JWM]

All said and done, I still think prox-N will be more effective than minoxidil in the long run and finasteride/dutasteride + prox-N will stop anyone from balding further

Bold statement!

 

[techprof]

JWM can you show a single post where users have posted pictures that show they have progressed in the norwood scale after being on finasteride (say NW2 to NW4)?

(NW1 to 2 is possible). I believe that one wouldn't advance in the norwood scale if he is on finasteride/dutasteride. I would love to be proved wrong with proof.

 

[Felk]

JWM can you show a single post where users have posted pictures that show they have progressed in the norwood scale after being on finasteride (say NW2 to NW4)?

(NW1 to 2 is possible). I believe that one wouldn't advance in the norwood scale if he is on finasteride/dutasteride. I would love to be proved wrong with proof.

Why tech? That would mean it's not as effective as we think

 

[techprof]

Felk, I meant getting worser by advancing in the Norwood scale.
Let's say if one were NW1 on day 0 and destined to go to NW7 by genetics. Propecia can only do so much.
But I would still insist that it will keep him from going past Norwood 2 or 3 max for a couple of decades.

What more can we ask for? For stupid people like me who didn't start finasteride/dutasteride till reaching NW6, it can't do much.

 

[Felk]

Yeah i know you meant that, but I wouldn't love you to be proved wrong, I would love it if you're right and we never go past NW2 or 3

 

[JWM]

Can't do it Tech. I wasn't disagreeing with you, but was more shocked that you felt Prox-N was such a potent treatment do be coupled with finasteride as a means to stop further balding.

 

[LookingGood!]

Felk, I meant getting worser by advancing in the Norwood scale.
Let's say if one were NW1 on day 0 and destined to go to NW7 by genetics. Propecia can only do so much.
But I would still insist that it will keep him from going past Norwood 2 or 3 max for a couple of decades.

What more can we ask for? For stupid people like me who didn't start finasteride/dutasteride till reaching NW6, it can't do much.

I dont agree. I really think that our bodies will acommodate to drugs like propecia and avodart and they will have to become dose dependent at some point to be affective. That's where one could run into problems such as sides. The problem is there are no long term studies that support this yet. The drug has only been mainstream since 1998. I had great results with it the first 3 yrs now its leveled and I did lose alittle in my Norwood 2 "island" which is not see thru but may be in the future. Who knows????

 

[techprof]

looking good, you might have lost in the nw1/2 area, have you progressed in the Norwood scale on the top of your head and the crown. I didn't think so.

I have lurked around the forums (may be 5 of them) looking for a post where in the users prove with pictures that he went from NW2 to NW5 after being on finasteride/dutasteride after 5 years. I see people saying finasteride stopped working in 9 years, may be switching to dutasteride. But no one shows with pictures that they have progressed in the Norwood scale.

finasteride has been around for a decade. Still not even a single story claiming people going from NW1 to NW4 after being on finasteride.

BTW, I would love to see your pictures showing you have progressed being NW2 after being on finasteride (ps., I pray that it doesn't happen to you).

 

[Dave001]

I really wish Proctor would support his product with testimonials and pictures on his website. This is seriously lacking. It should not be lacking if the guy has been in the business for 20 years. His site should be packed with photos from his clinic.

I disagree. Testimonials of medical products are a clear sign of deception (not even Doctor-tore Lee uses testomonials in his advertising). Photos are also meaningless unless you already trust the person providing them, and even then they will represent a very atypical response.

 

[bubka]

i totally see your point, but at least have something like Merck does, with good, typical, and no results...

 

[Dave001]

I just looked up the ksp of zink sulphate. Sure enough. The zink sulfate dissolves in water (cation and anion separate) just fine. Then the zink binds with OH- in the water, and the zink hydroxide is insoluble. This leaves and excess of H+ in the liquid. That is why the prox-N has a pH of 2.2. That is about 10x as acidic as coke, but 1% as acidic as 1M hydrochloric acid. The copper sulphate is worse. But I'm not going to put straight prox-N on my scalp anymore. I'm quite annoyed DrP put zink sulfate in there.

I would not at all worry about the toxicity of Prox-N. Dr. Proctor is quite cautious in that regard. Whether it is effective is a more valid concern.

 

[viperfish]

i totally see your point, but at least have something like Merck does, with good, typical, and no results...

Exactly right.