ASC-J9

[mjd50]

I don't have high hopes for this but at least it appears they are moving along. The new press release just mentions acne but the androscience website still lists androgenetic alopecia as being associated with ASC-J9. I wonder what the deal is with it. At the very least its seems that they having been moving along with their trials. If you look at their News and Updates from prior months, they were still in Phase I as early as Feb. 2007

http://www.androscience.com/Design/Asse ... 07News.pdf

 

[Armando Jose]

Andro Science
A company that beleive in a link between acne and common hair loss. SEBUM

I am not alone. :jump:

Armando

 

[CCS]

DHT causes sebum production and hair loss. Sebum does not cause hair loss.

 

[Bryan]

Andro Science
A company that beleive in a link between acne and common hair loss. SEBUM

I am not alone. :jump:

Sorry, Armando, but you ARE alone! All by your lonesome self!! :jackit:

 

[abcdefg]

Is that true? dht causes sebum which causes hairloss? What is sebum exactly?

One more question what does sebum have to do with the white oily crap lots of men on here always complain about?

Does anyone know anything on this?

 

[Bryler]

Is that true? dht causes sebum which causes hairloss? What is sebum exactly?

One more question what does sebum have to do with the white oily crap lots of men on here always complain about?

Does anyone know anything on this?

There is a causitory connection between 1) DHT and sebum and 2) DHT and androgenic alopecia. There is simply a correlation between sebum and alopecia. DHT is a catalist...sebum and androgenic alopecia are two downstream results.

Sebum - An oily secretion manufactured by tiny sebaceous glands near the follicles that keeps your hair lubricated and shiny...fatty secretion of the sebacious glands; thick greasy semifluid lubricating substance composed of fat and epithelial debris.

 

[CCS]

Is that true? dht causes sebum which causes hairloss? What is sebum exactly?

One more question what does sebum have to do with the white oily crap lots of men on here always complain about?

Does anyone know anything on this?

There is a causitory connection between 1) DHT and sebum and 2) DHT and androgenic alopecia. There is simply a correlation between sebum and alopecia. DHT is a catalist...sebum and androgenic alopecia are two downstream results.

Sebum - An oily secretion manufactured by tiny sebaceous glands near the follicles that keeps your hair lubricated and shiny...fatty secretion of the sebacious glands; thick greasy semifluid lubricating substance composed of fat and epithelial debris.

and we find out what shampoos and topics reduce the effects of DHT by seeing if they reduce the effects of sebum. The sebum is not bad, but it's presence tells us how much DHT is near by. Nizoral decreases sebum production, whereas Head & Shoulders increases it.

 

[michael barry]

Armando,

If you really want to sell more of your baldness product, you should disband the alternative theory of sebum-back up into the hair follicle as the cause of baldness.


What you should do, if you have not already, is link the new studies concerning peppermint to alpha five inhibition and lessening sebum secretion to your product page.

You should also list the ingredients by their common names, not latin---which few people understand, and list exactly why you believe them to work, backed by studies.

For instance, I have personally seen lavender to be a stimulant on my toe hair, and I think its in your topical----just say its a stimulant. Of course any studies you can find to back it up would help, but perhaps the best testimonial you could come up with would be to put it on one of your forearms for three months and take pictures, and then show both forearms in you product page as proof it induces hair growth. It does.


I have posted some info as of late on how coal tar probably lowers NADP and how this cofactor is necessary for vigorous alpha five activity in producing DHT.
I think thyme or sage (forget which one) also affects NADP. Ive been meaning to spend a night with google and to research this.

Thyme and sage are in your topical. List what you think they do, and back them up with studies as best as possible.


Rosemary is in your topical. Ive seen pubmed studies describing the very strong anti-oxidant activity of this essential oil and how anti-inflammatory it is. Id' list these studies also.


Any other hairloss patents in the literature that have some of the ingredients you use could be cited by you on your product page. If you use lemon grass or limonene or castor oil...............those are in other hairloss patents, therefore someone thinks they work. You could cite their reasoning.


I cant remember what all you have in your product. I do remember oregano is in it, and I dont know what that is in it for. However, I DO KNOW THIS.........sage, thyme, rosemary are all in American Crew Revitalize and in many hairloss shampoos and concoctions. Peppermint is now proven to inhibit alpha five and decrease sebum in the skin (plus Ive seen it lessen my beard hair). Lavender stimulated hair on my toe and is in many old essential oil remedies and modern shampoos. I would suggest the addtion of licorice if you can make it blend without reaction, etc. as Haircycle shampoo does, because it was the most anti-androgenic topical of all.

I think a good anti-androgenic topical can be concocted out there from essential oils and natural sources that are not exotic free form fatty acids that would cost a fortune to synthesize if some producer was of the mind to do so.
However, such a topical would have to appeal to a prospecitve buyers scientific mind and use studies to make their case for efficacy. Obviously any before and after photos showing anti-androgenic action would be helpful. A made-up alternative baldness theory though, will drive most potential customers away everytime. All the scientists who have researched baldness are not wrong Armando. These are often dedicated people who'd like to solve it for themselves or for a relative/spouse------they are not "missing anything".



By the way......................in any topical, I feel that if one could find a substance that downregulated DPPK, they might really have "found something" in baldness. It may just be a "hunch", but the fact that DPPK results in dead keratinocyte cells, that would no doubt be carried out of the body via the hair shaft, might just be why the first inflammation seen in baldness is near the infidulum (the opening in the dermis where the hair exits the body). It makes sense. The immune system would naturally "attack" dead cells in the body. I think DPPK might be even more important that subduing TGF beta. TGF beta would be downreged a great deal just by controlling alpha five activity and as much receptor blockage as one could come up with.


In short Armando, make a topical that inhibits alpha five, inhibits receptor uptake either through blockage or downregulation of expression, is anti-inflammatory, is stimulatory, downregs a negative growth factor or two.......................and then you can sell it based on means of reason against the traditional interpretation of male pattern baldness................................instead of getting them to swallow an 'alterna' baldness theory. It would seem to be a better business decision.

 

[abcdefg]

So does propecia effect sebum production at all if dht is lowered does sebum production then change or does dht just initially trigger it? Sebum as the result of dht completely explains why I have all this oily white crap right where I lose my hair dht is causing my glands to produce to much of that and dht is making my hair also miniaturize. I think I just decided i need to take propecia because im about 90 percent sure thats what this intense itch, and white flaky crap all stems from.
I never really knew what sebum was exactly or what it had to do with anything but im pretty sure I have overproduction of that and dht must be the cause. It also explains why the only thing that every made that white crap and the itch go away was saw palmetto. DHT is responsible in my case atleast.

 

[CCS]

If sebum backup caused hair loss, then why does finasteride stop hair loss, when it does not slow sebum production? Remember, finasteride only inhibits 5ar2. 5ar1 is in the sebum glands.

 

[abcdefg]

you said:
DHT causes sebum production and hair loss. Sebum does not cause hair loss.
So then finasteride would help slow or stop sebum production as well as hairloss? I think sebum is my problem so how to alter or slow that down? Are androgens then responsible?

 

[Bryan]

Finasteride has been previously tested for its effect on sebum production, and found not to have any measurable effect. The reason for that is probably that sebaceous glands contain the type 1 form of 5a-reductase, which finasteride doesn't significantly affect.

Yes, sebum production is strongly influenced (stimulated) by androgens.

 

[abcdefg]

If sebum production is strongly influenced by androgens then does that mean seb derm is really because of androgens? So dutasteride lowers sebum production but finasteride doesnt? finasteride does inhibit some androgens indirectly by stopping 5ar 2 so shouldnt it help with sebum production? Once androgens start sebum production can it be stoppped or slowed even if androgens are taken away after the fact? Physics teaches us with entropy that not all processes are reversible.

 

[jakeb]

Physics doesn't come in to play in the way you're suggesting. With matter, there's entropy. With biological systems... new things can grow, even as the matter that makes them up is slowly falling apart. Some people even say that every 7-10 years, your body is made up of a completely different set of atoms than it was before:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .Bc.r.html

 

[Bryler]

If sebum production is strongly influenced by androgens then does that mean seb derm is really because of androgens?

Many treatments for seborrheic dermatitis, among other things, inhibit androgenic activity locally where applied.

So dutasteride lowers sebum production but finasteride doesnt?

To some extent, yes...most likely because of its additional, partial inhibition of 5ar-1

finasteride does inhibit some androgens indirectly by stopping 5ar 2 so shouldnt it help with sebum production?

This was addressed by CCS...no?...

If sebum backup caused hair loss, then why does finasteride stop hair loss, when it does not slow sebum production? Remember, finasteride only inhibits 5ar2. 5ar1 is in the sebum glands.

Once androgens start sebum production can it be stoppped or slowed even if androgens are taken away after the fact? Physics teaches us with entropy that not all processes are reversible.

Entropy is not the mechanism under which sebum is produced...because it is produced. In any event, sebum production is part of a dynamic system in the body. In that dynamic system it is a downstream product. If you interfere with the upstream catalysts of this biological process, yes, you will decrease the downstream products. This is not a momentum-based process where you "push" the boulder over the hill and it continues to roll after you cease to "push". Cancer could be thought of as a process where an initial catalyst (free radicals perhaps) causes an initial process which then advances under its own power after the initiating stimulis is removed. This is not the case here with sebum production. Even with the cancer example, the concept of entropy is not applicable because entropy is a measurement of "disorder" where cancer cells are still functioning cells that are producing other functioning cells from raw materials in the body (an organizational process). Even if this process is undesirable for the long term well being of the host organism, it is a process of organized creation, not disorder.

 

[abcdefg]

Interesting. You guys are right I think.

I dont know. It seems weird to say DHT causes sebum production and hairloss but finasteride doesnt change sebum production. Im guessing we dont know why 5 ar type 1 alters sebum production while type 2 does not. I guess i need to take propecia but maybe dutasteride although much more dangerous would be better for type 1 inhibition since i think sebum is my problem. I worry about dht and its role in the brain and skin. I dont want premature aging because i decided to inhibit dht in my skin throughout my body, and no one will convince me that we fully understand what dht does in the skin precisely.

So according to science thus far we can credit the higher incidence of seb derm, and dandruff for men in general compared to women due to higher androgen levels?
Has it been found men with seb derm then benefit more from dutasteride then men without seb derm just due to sebum alterations?

 

[Armando Jose]

Hi Michael, thank you for your good advice in bussiness issue, sadly my background is scient, not bussiness, but I am going to try use your wise words because I have a family.

Only a remark at your commentary

A made-up alternative baldness theory though, will drive most potential customers away everytime. All the scientists who have researched baldness are not wrong Armando. These are often dedicated people who'd like to solve it for themselves or for a relative/spouse------they are not "missing anything".

They are missing the more important thing, in my oppinion, They don't demostrate the different sensibility in healthy scalp hairs with androgens, and even they don't want investigate when androgens appears in the viccinity of scalp hairs. Maybe, in this case, bussines strategies are also implicated. In my oppinion androgens are present in healthy scalp hairs a lot of years before puberty. My hunch is easy, sebum is vital for a sane hair, and childrens have a "luxuriant" hair. Without sebum there is no hair, or better thepilosebaceous unit.

Ah, Mr. Bryan, I dont know very much about complete or incomplete insensibility to androgens, but I think that all is not only black or white. Without androgens there is not human life ¿Is it correct?.

PCR or HG-MS analysis is sufficient to probe or disprobe this very important question.

Thank you again, I'll try to use your wise words.

Armando

 

[Bryan]

I dont know. It seems weird to say DHT causes sebum production and hairloss but finasteride doesnt change sebum production.

Why does it seem "weird" to you?? It's already been pointed out two or three times in this thread that the type of 5a-reductase in sebaceous glands is the type 1 version, which finasteride doesn't touch.

Im guessing we dont know why 5 ar type 1 alters sebum production while type 2 does not.

AGAIN: sebaceous glands contain type 1, not type 2.

 

[Bryan]

So dutasteride lowers sebum production but finasteride doesnt?

To some extent, yes...most likely because of its additional, partial inhibition of 5ar-1

To be very cautious here, it should be pointed out that there are no studies that I'm aware of which looked at the degree (if any) to which dutasteride lowers sebum production.

 

[Bryler]

So dutasteride lowers sebum production but finasteride doesnt?

To some extent, yes...most likely because of its additional, partial inhibition of 5ar-1

To be very cautious here, it should be pointed out that there are no studies that I'm aware of which looked at the degree (if any) to which dutasteride lowers sebum production.

...Very good point Bryan. This is just a guess on my part. I have no studies to back this intuitive statement up....this comes solely from factual extrapolation and personal experience. Keep an open mind on this point...