based on this bryan study, why aren't we taking 5 mg finaste

[Gilgamesh]

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/finasteride ... anging.htm

scroll down to the bottom for the chart

.2 mg haircount = 61
1 mg haircount = 77
5 mg haircount = 95

now IMO 95 is a huge difference from 77 and worth the cost

improved appearance also rises from 54 to 71 when 1->5mg

am i missing something obvious, because you guys do your research and are all on 1.25

help?


based on this study, why aren't we taking 5 mg finasteride


based on this bryan study, why aren't we taking 5 mg finasteride

 

[Z]

I think its a combination of fears:

1. Floppy c*** syndrome
2. Man-boobs risk
3. Loss of libido
4. Costs

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

5 mg is not recommended because of an increase in side effects is not justified based on the potential increase in hair counts. The FDA has approved the use of 1 mg finasteride for the treatment of male pattern baldness as safe. 5 mg finasteride is a treatment for prostate problems in which the potential risks (mostly the side effects) are justified because of the terminal nature of prostate cancer.

 

[Gilgamesh]

I think its a combination of fears:

1. Floppy c*** syndrome
2. Man-boobs risk
3. Loss of libido
4. Costs

haha i already have 1 and 3 (its worth it for my hair)

as for 4, if you get the indian generic its cheap as hell

 

[Gilgamesh]

what doesn't make sense to me is 1 mg inhibits 68.7% dht, and 5 mg inhibits only 69.2%

how could that tiny difference change hair count so much

 

[Britannia]

You should have looked at that study more carefully. It clearly states that the 5mg of finasteride was administered for 12 months, where as the 1 mg of finasteride was only administered for 6 months. There were two different studies going on: one studing 1mg vs 0.2mg/0.01mg/placebo and the other studying 5mg vs placebo. This study never directly compared 1mg and 5mg together.
Look at table 1 where it says "assessment". You will see that 1mg was M6 and 5mg was M12.
So actually this study shows that using 5 times the recommended dosage for twice as long only results in a small increase in hair count. Clearly, the risks of sides associated with taking 5mg does not justify this level of improvement in effectiveness. This is why 1mg is the preferred choice.

 

[IDOASIS]

Ok, and what is the different between the scalp DHT on those doses??

 

[Siberian]

Just a sidenote: Proscar ($239/90 days) is actually MORE expensive than Avodart ($236/90 days) - at least on drugstore.com. Since Avodart is apparently more effective, it seems a more economical choice.

 

[IDOASIS]

Wow its expensive!!!
90 tables of proscar on this website cost 85.5$
and 90 tables of dutasteride cost 90$

http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/custome ... ng=proscar

 

[Siberian]

Wow its expensive!!!
90 tables of proscar on this website cost 85.5$
and 90 tables of dutasteride cost 90$

http://www.unitedpharmacies.com/custome ... ng=proscar

Yikes, yea that certainly is a huge difference. I just never know whether or not to trust sites like that. I know when I order from drugstore.com that I'm getting the real deal. Not that these guys are necessarily scamming anyone, but I just don't know. So far, I've been doing it the legit, albeit expensive way via a prescription from my Doctor.

But I'd really like to get my paws on Avodart

Have you used them before?

 

[IDOASIS]

Well, me and most of the guys from hairsite order from them.
I think the results on my hair are some kind of proof ,though recently I got a prescription (30$ per month the real Avodart at the local pharmacy ).
There are more sites with similar prices, like inhousepharmacies, genhair.com etc.
It's the first time I hear about so high prices.

Does drugstore.com sell the original or generics??

 

[Siberian]

Why then does Merck say, "PROPECIA will not work faster or better if you take it more than once a day?"

http://www.propecia.com/finasteride/pro ... i/take.jsp

So much conflicting information... it's frustrating. There's no way to make an informed decision.

 

[Bryan]

Re: re:

5 mg is not recommended because of an increase in side effects is not justified based on the potential increase in hair counts. The FDA has approved the use of 1 mg finasteride for the treatment of male pattern baldness as safe.

I can't agree with your basic premise. My point of view is that side-effects are directly proportional to the degree to which DHT is reduced, so if 5 mg/day lowers DHT only slightly more than 1 mg/day, then side-effects from 5 mg/day would be only slightly worse than 1 mg/day.

This tacit assumption that most people seem to have that SIDE-effects increase rapidly with dose while DESIRED-effects increase only slowly doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Why then does Merck say, "PROPECIA will not work faster or better if you take it more than once a day?"

Because they LIE!

Merck can only say what the FDA allows them to say. The FDA also forces Upjohn to say the same lie about Rogaine.

Bryan

 

[silkeysmooth]

Why then does Merck say, "PROPECIA will not work faster or better if you take it more than once a day?"

Because they LIE!

Merck can only say what the FDA allows them to say. The FDA also forces Upjohn to say the same lie about Rogaine.

Bryan

What's that about rogaine? I've never heard that, but then, it's never entered my mind. You think if I drench my head in rogaine 6 times a day I might get better results? Not that I'd do that or anything...

Have you read any studies that show that more than 2 applications per day is more effective?

Don't hold out on us Bryan!

 

[Bryan]

There haven't been any studies that actually compared 2 applications/day against more than 2 per day; what I'm thinking of is the fact that they made the same claims for the 2% version of Rogaine before the 5% ever came out: they claimed that using more of it wouldn't work any better. But since then, there have been at least a couple studies showing the 5% version to be more effective than 2%. The key fact is that regardless of which one you use, they both evaporate down to a saturated solution of minoxidil in propylene glycol. So the original claim for 2% Rogaine is almost certainly false: it WILL work better if you use a larger quantitiy of it, enough to supply the same amount of minoxidil as what you get with the standard application of the 5% version.

Bryan

 

[Johnny24601]

re:

The action of finasteride is not totally clear. What is known is that at 1 mg it decreases the production of DHT to a point where people with male pattern baldness may have benefit. At 5 mg that DHT reduction is only slightly more. Why it is not exponential, I don't know. If the adiditonal 4 mg is not dropping DHT levels, then what is it doing? I highly doubt it is just coming out of your urine, it is going somewhere and potentiall affecting testosterone in other ways.
I take anything Merck has to say with a giant grain of salt, but they had a basis for deciding that the 1 mg dose was better then the 5 mg dose. They had already studied the effects from teh 5 mg dose when they got approval for proscar. It would have been far easier to just produce the proscar and apply for FDA approval of the 5 mg dose for male pattern baldness, they decided not to do that for a reason and I believe the reason is side effects.
Many many people on this board report a decrease in side effects with a decrease dosage. Most reports indicate that a reduction in dosage does not have an equally exponential negative effect on results but users of this site report that it does have a huge effect on side effects. This indicates that dosage changes may have a large effect on effectiveness for the treatment of male pattern baldness but does have a large effect on side effects.
I encourage you to look at the rate of side effect for 5 mg finasteride users who take the drug in relation to prostate problems. I researched the topic when I first started out and I remember the 5 mg users have a much higher incident of side effects.
The FDA has approved the use of finasteride for prostate problems, but again that approval was based on the risk/reward of effectiveness vs. side effects. Most users of proscar are able to cope with the side effects. For me, it is a risk that is just not worth it.

 

[Bryan]

Re: re:

The action of finasteride is not totally clear. What is known is that at 1 mg it decreases the production of DHT to a point where people with male pattern baldness may have benefit. At 5 mg that DHT reduction is only slightly more. Why it is not exponential, I don't know.

You mean, why it is not LINEAR, you don't know? That's the way enzymes work: if you take enough of an inhibitor to block 95% of an enzyme (for example), you don't just require another 5% of the inhibitor to block the remaining 5% of the enzyme. Doesn't work that way. It's not linear.

If the adiditonal 4 mg is not dropping DHT levels, then what is it doing?

HUH??? The additional 4 mg IS dropping the DHT levels an additional amount. Where'd you get the idea that it wasn't??

I take anything Merck has to say with a giant grain of salt, but they had a basis for deciding that the 1 mg dose was better then the 5 mg dose.

It was just a rather arbitrary decision, actually.

They had already studied the effects from teh 5 mg dose when they got approval for proscar. It would have been far easier to just produce the proscar and apply for FDA approval of the 5 mg dose for male pattern baldness, they decided not to do that for a reason and I believe the reason is side effects.

Nah. Early test-subjects have taken as much as 50 mg/day of finasteride with no problems.

Many many people on this board report a decrease in side effects with a decrease dosage.

I take that with a grain of salt.

Bryan