Bryan: Estrogen- Friend or Foe?

[purecontrol]

Young men with high testosterone levels dont get prostate cancer, old men with low test and high estrogen do.

Xenoestrogens, and peripheral conversion cause prostate cancer.

I am really suprised to see people act like this when it is constantly complained about that there are to many people lurking and not posting.

I am simply here to share ideas and thoughts, if that is not welcomed I will delete all that I have posted and move on to a more progressive forum.

Otherwise keep your personal comments to you self and simply move on with the discusion so that the facts can show themselves.


With that said the studies that I have posted and you have posted show in fact that Estrogen increases the effects of DHT.

I never once said that if you bring Estrogen down that you would not need to stop conversion to DHT simply that the body is responding to the higher levels of estrogen which your study clearly shows it dose.

Now will the levels of DHT drop right away? At this point the answer is no, can you stop those DHT levels from ever rising in the first place or will they go down over a period of time, maybe.

The fact is that Estrogen is not simply OK, that too much estrogen causes just as much harm as to much DHT.

The point in our quest should not to have completely elimate Estrogen or DHT but rather to return them to a midium normal to low normal state depending on the person.

And that a very very key element has been left out of the picture.

My goal is simply to explore different areas of discusion and to bring up different points in areas already explored.

I also have some very good topics on Prolactin and it's direct importance with DHT Estrogen and ARs

 

[Bryan]

For chrissake, don't just go around posting TONS of irrelevant studies that few people are even going to read!! If you have a point to make, STATE IT CLEARLY AND SUCCINCTLY. There's an old saying that you should take to heart: "Brevity is the soul of wit."

 

[Bryan]

Young men with high testosterone levels dont get prostate cancer, old men with low test and high estrogen do.

So what CONCLUSIONS are you going to draw from that? :wink:

With that said the studies that I have posted and you have posted show in fact that Estrogen increases the effects of DHT.

Maybe. But that's in the PROSTATE, dude. What does that have to do with male pattern balding?

I never once said that if you bring Estrogen down that you would not need to stop conversion to DHT simply that the body is responding to the higher levels of estrogen which your study clearly shows it dose.

Horseshit! You said in plain English that if you reduce estrogen, you will reduce DHT. I showed you some scientific evidence that you were WRONG about that.

Now will the levels of DHT drop right away? At this point the answer is no, can you stop those DHT levels from ever rising in the first place or will they go down over a period of time, maybe.

The study I posted lasted nearly a YEAR, dude. DHT levels went UP, not DOWN. You're as wrong as you can be.

The fact is that Estrogen is not simply OK, that too much estrogen causes just as much harm as to much DHT.

In the prostate, MAYBE. But all the available evidence suggests that estrogen is good for scalp hair.

 

[purecontrol]

So what CONCLUSIONS are you going to draw from that? :wink:

This is a very strong indication that estorgen plays a very important role in the effects that DHT has on the body

Maybe. But that's in the PROSTATE, dude. What does that have to do with male pattern balding?

You can't be serious? That is where all the studies info ect ect has come from for male pattern baldness, if it were not for research into the prostate we would not have finasteride or dutasteride.

Horseshit! You said in plain English that if you reduce estrogen, you will reduce DHT. I showed you some scientific evidence that you were WRONG about that.

Yep sure did, and as I stated with your study it apears that is indeed wrong, however as I stated would the DHT levels drop to normal or never go above normal if used in preventative measures or yearlier in life.

Further more Xenoestrogens are not taken into account either, so proper estrogen levels can not 100% be ruled out.

But at this point I would much more lean twoard what the study showed to error on the side of caution

The study I posted lasted nearly a YEAR, dude. DHT levels went UP, not DOWN. You're as wrong as you can be.

Already covered this

In the prostate, MAYBE. But all the available evidence suggests that estrogen is good for scalp hair.

Are you refering to directly? Certainly estorgen helps skin elastin ect ect with many many positive benefits of course, other wise it would not be there.

However higher than normal levels, as evidence shows, is not GOOD for the hair as it highly increases the effects of DHT.

The prostate is not tissue that is in a bubble LOL If estrogen effects the prostate in such a dramatic fashion it is more than likely it will do the same to the rest of the cells in the body, especially those that are also that sensative to Androgens ie the hair on your head.


I am not sure if you have an axe to grind of something, but I am simply here to explore and have logical mature ideas.


Leave your feelings at home where they belong, to further research.

 

[purecontrol]

For chrissake, don't just go around posting TONS of irrelevant studies that few people are even going to read!! If you have a point to make, STATE IT CLEARLY AND SUCCINCTLY. There's an old saying that you should take to heart: "Brevity is the soul of wit."

No reason to use that language, how you are acting is completely uncalled for and does not further the discusion at all.

There were around 4 studies that I cited to your one study you cited, I posted them so that people can draw their own conclusions instead of telling them what is means. It is important to full source your info as a rule.

 

[docj077]

The prostate is not tissue that is in a bubble LOL If estrogen effects the prostate in such a dramatic fashion it is more than likely it will do the same to the rest of the cells in the body, especially those that are also that sensative to Androgens ie the hair on your head.

Actually, you CAN NOT infer anything with regards to the effects of androgens on hair from studies involving the prostate. Different cells in the body respond quite differently to androgens at many levels. This is quite obvious from the difference that is seen between body hair, pubic hair, facial hair, and hair in the scalp. They all have different responses to androgens whether there is a genetic defect or not.

The interplay of nuclear receptors is not the same in every given tissue. In fact, it is quite different and quite limited to the tissue being studied. The response to hormones in the skin is a very different phenomenon from the response to hormones that occurs in the reproductive system and glands of the male and female body. Not only are their different receptor subtypes depending on the tissue, but their are also fluctuating concentrations of nuclear receptors to alter the response.

Studies involving prostate tissue simply don't cut it when one is discussing a specific tissues androgen, estrogen, or estrogen-androgen response. In fact, your conclusions would be wrong before you ever formed them.

 

[wookster]

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen

Synthetic chemicals shown to have unintended estrogenic effects

4-Methylbenzylidine camphor (4-MBC) (sunscreen lotions)

hydroxy-anisole butyrate (food preservation)

atrazine (weedkiller)

bisphenol-A (food preservation, plasticizers)

DEHP

dieldrin (insecticide)

DDT (insecticide)

hexachlorocyclohexane (insecticide)

endosulfan (insecticide)

erythrosine, Red Dye No.3

heptachlor

methoxychlor (insecticide)

Polychlorinated biphenyls,(PCB)s (lubricants, adhesives, paints)

p-nonylphenol (in PVC products and byproduct from detergents and spermicides)

parabens (lotions)

phenosulfothiazine

phthalates (plastic softener)

 

[wookster]

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

http://www.drlam.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_f ... inance.cfm

Summary

Estrogen Dominance is the result of excessive estrogen and progesterone deficiency. It affects about 50% of Western women. It is an epidemic of gigantic proportion. The primary causes are excessive environmental estrogen , obesity, stress, poor diet, lack of exercise, and unopposed estrogen given as part of a hormone replacement therapy. Estrogen dominance is a major root cause of a myriad of conditions including PMS, endometriosis, cystic breast disease, PCOS, uterine fibroid, and breast cancer. Fortunately, the level of estrogen in our body can be reduced. Following the estrogen reduction protocol will go a long way to reduce the amount of estrogen in our body and curing women from the dreaded illness mentioned above.

 

[wookster]

http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1996102810.shtml

Estrogen Blocker Grows Hair


NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Researchers say a compound used in laboratory experiments to block the production of estrogen also has the surprising side effect of awakening sleeping hair follicles. Their report in the October 29 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences says if the estrogen blocker proves safe for people, it could be used for hair loss caused by chemotherapy, male pattern baldness, or gradual thinning.

[...]

But, they began to notice something strange happening. Hair stopped growing on the shaved skin of mice treated with a biologically active form of estrogen -- 17-beta estradiol -- even though the animals were at an age when hair growth should continue.

And, when the researchers applied an estrogen blocker called ICI 182,780 just twice, tissue studies one week later showed hair follicles beginning to sprout hair.

"By two weeks, the visible hair growth on treated mice was about the same as on mice who had never been shaved, while mice that were not treated with [the compound] grew no hair," Smart said.

The researchers soon switched the focus of their study to the links between estrogens, estrogen-receptor blockers, and hair growth.

"Our findings indicate that an estrogen-receptor pathway in specific cells of the mice's hair follicles somehow acts as a switch, essentially turning on and off hair growth," Smart explained, adding that the study sheds new light on the role of estrogens in regulating the normal cycle of hair growth.

ensativo: ensativo: ensativo:

 

[wookster]

http://www.keratin.com/ac/baldnesstreat ... suse.shtml

Progesterone is a competitive inhibitor of 5 alpha reductase so it has the potential to block production of dihydrotestosterone(DHT). Only one small study has been conducted to examine the effects of topical progesterone on androgenetic aloepcia. The results indicated some benefit in stopping further hair loss but significant regrowth did not occur.

Despite the limited clinical trial results, some dermatologists in Europe do use topical progesterone to treat androgenetic alopecia. They typically use a 1% or 2% topical concentration of progesterone, with a maximum exposure limit of 40mg a day. It has been suggested that higher doses resulted in menstrual irregularities in women using topical progesterone.

 

[wookster]

Interesting...

http://www.mercola.com/1998/archive/nat ... terone.htm

Males also produce progesterone, although about half as much as females do. The progesterone prevents the body from converting testosterone to di-hydro testosterone. It does this by inhibiting the enzyme 5-alpha reductase. Progesterone inhibits 5 alpha reductase far more effectively than Proscar and Saw Palmetto which are the more standard agents employed in traditonal and natural medicine.

 

[wookster]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/

Hormonal profile of men with premature balding.

Stárka L, Cermáková I, Dusková M, Hill M, Dolezal M, Polácek V.
Institute of Endocrinology, Prague, Czech Republic. [email protected]

[...]

Premature androgenic alopecia has been suggested as a feature of the male equivalent of the syndrome of polycystic ovary.

[...]

CONCLUSIONS: The hormonal pattern of a substantial number of men with premature balding resembles in some respects the hormonal pattern of women with polycystic ovary syndrome.

 

[michael barry]

Wook,

Topical progesterone has been tried..........................but it degenerates pretty quickly and you'd have to use it every few hours or so. It would be great if it would last twelve hours or so, but it just doesnt.

 

[wookster]

Wook,

Topical progesterone has been tried..........................but it degenerates pretty quickly and you'd have to use it every few hours or so. It would be great if it would last twelve hours or so, but it just doesnt.

The question becomes: what are the levels and ratio of progesterone, estrogen, and DHT, in balding vs. non-balding scalps?

 

[Bryan]

http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1996102810.shtml

Estrogen Blocker Grows Hair

Another trip down Memory Lane by Wookster!

 

[Bryan]

So what CONCLUSIONS are you going to draw from that? :wink:

This is a very strong indication that estorgen plays a very important role in the effects that DHT has on the body

There are suspicions that estrogen plays an important role in the etiology of prostate disease, but you sure as hell can't generalize that to all the rest of the body.

Maybe. But that's in the PROSTATE, dude. What does that have to do with male pattern balding?

You can't be serious? That is where all the studies info ect ect has come from for male pattern baldness...

What does THAT mean?? Honestly, you don't have a CLUE what you're talking about!

Horseshit! You said in plain English that if you reduce estrogen, you will reduce DHT. I showed you some scientific evidence that you were WRONG about that.

Yep sure did, and as I stated with your study it apears that is indeed wrong, however as I stated would the DHT levels drop to normal or never go above normal if used in preventative measures or yearlier in life.

Oh, so THAT'S your excuse??

Is there any scientific evidence at all that would convince you that you're wrong, or are you just bound and determined to believe your nutso theory? :wink:

In the prostate, MAYBE. But all the available evidence suggests that estrogen is good for scalp hair.

Are you refering to directly?

Yes.

However higher than normal levels, as evidence shows, is not GOOD for the hair as it highly increases the effects of DHT.

There is no such evidence for hair. In fact, the commonly-held view among doctors and scientists is that the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen is protective for hair follicles, by reducing the amount of testosterone that is liable to be converted to DHT.

The possible effect of estrogen on the prostate is a completely separate issue.

The prostate is not tissue that is in a bubble LOL If estrogen effects the prostate in such a dramatic fashion it is more than likely it will do the same to the rest of the cells in the body, especially those that are also that sensative to Androgens ie the hair on your head.

You don't have a CLUE what you're talking about!

I am not sure if you have an axe to grind of something, but I am simply here to explore and have logical mature ideas.

You aren't the first person to come here and attempt to draw ridiculous parallels between hair follicles and the prostate. It happens occasionally on all the hairloss forums, and it's just good sport and a lot of fun to knock it down whenever it pops-up.

 

[michael barry]

You aren't the first person to come here and attempt to draw ridiculous parallels between hair follicles and the prostate. It happens occasionally on all the hairloss forums, and it's just good sport and a lot of fun to knock it down whenever it pops-up.

Actually Bryan...............................I wish that we were getting to have advanced discussions and trying out various topicals in a more scientific manner, discussing the latest research, and comparing various regimines for effectivenss, cost, and simplicity. I cannot believe men keep coming up with various alternative baldness ideas. Some are for money promoted by hucksters, but in many instances like this PureControl poster, they are of men who simply refuse to believe that people have a natural tendency to Androgenic Alopecia, and will do anything to keep from facing up to that. These sites could really help men hang onto the hair they have all of their lives.

You made a post once about a guy who did oral spironolactone, and started regrowing hair all over his scalp after being bald for thirty years. We know of experiments where human hair that was minitarized did indeed enlarge when placed on a immuno-deficient mouse. So if we can block hormones at the follicle site, and keep the immune system from attacking or supress the immuno attack, or block whatever happenstance around the follicle or in it that gets the immune system to attack, and repair some of the damage around the follicle (with peptides and emu oil), men might be able to regrow some hair----and keep what they have until a real cure comes down the pike. Hairloss sites seem to be stuck in my opinon with all sorts of extraneous bullshit interefering with their natural evolutionary progress.

 

[CCS]

In the prostate, MAYBE. But all the available evidence suggests that estrogen is good for scalp hair.

Are you refering to directly?

Yes.

However higher than normal levels, as evidence shows, is not GOOD for the hair as it highly increases the effects of DHT.

There is no such evidence for hair. In fact, the commonly-held view among doctors and scientists is that the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen is protective for hair follicles, by reducing the amount of testosterone that is liable to be converted to DHT.

No way. If if half the testosterone is turned to estrogen, that porbably only reduces DHT 25%. That would not make enough of a difference. I heard estrogen has the opposite effect as DHT, and that is how it works. At least in penis tissue. That theory makes more sense, not the change in amount of DHT.

 

[Bryan]

Hairloss sites seem to be stuck in my opinon with all sorts of extraneous bullshit interefering with their natural evolutionary progress.

Well, I'm sure some people here have deplored all the painstaking attention we've given to the kooks with alternate theories of balding (the Ernies, the Armando Joses, the Stephen Footes, and the "purecontrols" of the world), but I think at least to some extent they've been "useful idiots", to quote Lenin! They've forced us to critically examine and confirm the very foundations of male pattern baldness theory, which I think is surely good for the newbies who have the patience to read it and understand it.

 

[Bryan]

There is no such evidence for hair. In fact, the commonly-held view among doctors and scientists is that the aromatization of testosterone to estrogen is protective for hair follicles, by reducing the amount of testosterone that is liable to be converted to DHT.

No way. If if half the testosterone is turned to estrogen, that porbably only reduces DHT 25%. That would not make enough of a difference. I heard estrogen has the opposite effect as DHT, and that is how it works. At least in penis tissue. That theory makes more sense, not the change in amount of DHT.

Every little bit helps. Furthermore, it's probably misleading even to think about it just on a simple direct basis, like for every molecule of T that turns into estrogen, that's one less molecule that can turn into DHT. Happle & Hoffmann (my favorite hairloss researchers ) did a nifty in vitro study a while back that found that estrogen (17b-estradiol) seemed to be a fairly effective 5a-reductase inhibitor (17a-estradiol was considerably less potent). So estrogen's beneficial effect on human scalp hair is probably a complicated combined effect of at least all the following factors, and possibly additional unknown ones:

1) One less molecule of DHT for each molecule of T that gets converted to estrogen;

2) The 5a-reductase-inhibiting effect of the estrogen, once it's formed;

3) A possible direct hairgrowth-stimulating effect of estrogen via the estrogen receptor (gene stimulation).