Bryan - Free Fatty Acids Question

[GourmetStyleWellness]

Bryan -

I am currently in talks with the owner of Procerin, to try and turn him over from the Dark Side to the side of good, and help them brainstorm on creating a product that will actually be beneficial for hair loss. I told them about Revivogen's free fatty acids and had remembered what you said that the Free Form is difficult to obtain and very expensive.

Here was his reply. I was wondering what you thought about it:

"Free form ALA/GLA is easy, its actually basically processed sunflower seed oil. GSE is a likely alternative to our blueberry derived Procyanidin."

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Bryan]

I told them about Revivogen's free fatty acids and had remembered what you said that the Free Form is difficult to obtain and very expensive.

Let's be sure to keep what I said in the proper context, which is the following:

The only place I know of to get pure fatty acids in their free form is from a chemical company, but it's almost impossible to get such a company to sell chemicals to an ordinary individual (although I did manage to buy linoleic acid from one of Fisher Scientific's local distributors). There's nothing unusual about, say, a graduate student ordering chemicals from such a company through his university's account, or a doctor or scientist having such an account; but good luck to an ordinary guy off the street who wants to order chemicals! :cry:

Some pure fatty acids are more expensive than others. If I remember correctly, GLA was about $40/gram from one company, but linoleic acid is a lot cheaper than that. However, the Revivogen people have an extra neat trick up their sleeve: they don't use PURIFIED fatty acids, just simple mixtures of fatty acids (in their free form, of course) that come from the bulk de-esterification of natural oils like borage and flaxseed. They save a lot of money that way, for both themselves and their users.

Here was his reply. I was wondering what you thought about it:

"Free form ALA/GLA is easy, its actually basically processed sunflower seed oil."

Actually, I'd have to agree with him. De-esterifying natural oils into free-form fatty acids is no big deal for a chemical company. It's a relatively simple process. Can you talk the guy into putting out a similar product as Revivogen at a better price? All they have to do is have a chemical company do the appropriate processing of some natural oil which is relatively rich in unstaurated fatty acids, then ship the resulting mix to them in bulk. The Procerin people could then mix it into a topical vehicle, bottle it, and sell it. Revivogen could use a little competiton! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Trent]

gourmetstylewellness.com do you think it would be useful to add some of these to the regimen? i was taking a black currant oil which was free fatty acids, but stopped just cause i ran out, do you think i should get back on them, just for the hell of it??

 

[JWM]

gourmetstylewellness.com

It would also be great if you could ask them if the product would ONLY contain fatty acids. The other stuff (zinc, b6, azelaic acid etc.) is unneccesary and may, as Bryan suggested, make it cheaper.

 

[Old Baldy]

Bryan: How does emu oil stack up compared to the fatty acids you guys are talking about?

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

The only place I know of to get pure fatty acids in their free form is from a chemical company, but it's almost impossible to get such a company to sell chemicals to an ordinary individual

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Procerin people don't have access to a chemical company, but I could be wrong.

However, the Revivogen people have an extra neat trick up their sleeve: they don't use PURIFIED fatty acids, just simple mixtures of fatty acids (in their free form, of course) that come from the bulk de-esterification of natural oils like borage and flaxseed. They save a lot of money that way, for both themselves and their users.

Interesting. Would you say its still as effective as Purified fatty acids?

Can you talk the guy into putting out a similar product as Revivogen at a better price?

Isn't there already one out, called Crinagen?

All they have to do is have a chemical company do the appropriate processing of some natural oil which is relatively rich in unstaurated fatty acids, then ship the resulting mix to them in bulk. The Procerin people could then mix it into a topical vehicle, bottle it, and sell it. Revivogen could use a little competiton! :wink:

This brings up another question I wanted to ask you. If you could create the ultimate topical hair loss treatment consisting of things we only have good reason to believe will work (versus FDA approved and clinically proven) ... what would it consist of? The procerin people are foaming at the mouth right now for the answer to that question because they're willing to make it. We all know how much they love money, to the point of even lying to people unfortunately ... so maybe their greed will result in our benefit. Then again, the answer to this question could possibly already be answered by you with one word: Proxiphen. Yes ? No ?

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

gourmetstylewellness.com do you think it would be useful to add some of these to the regimen? i was taking a black currant oil which was free fatty acids, but stopped just cause i ran out, do you think i should get back on them, just for the hell of it??

Check out the "Three P's" post we put up the other day:
http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hp?t=12638

I still genuinely believe the way to approach treating hair loss is to start with the most proven, and work your way down, in intervals of 6 to 12 months. It takes a hellish amount of patience and discipline but ideally I think that's the best solution for results. Start with Propecia and give it a year or two. If you see results, stick with it all by itself. Be happy to maintain. Its buying you time. When it runs out maybe 7 years down the line, add Rogaine and enjoy another 5 years or so with that combination.

This is for guys who are relatively new to hair loss and haven't developed to more advanced Norwood stages.

Using this method, Revivogen and its Fatty Acids wont even see the light of day for 10 years. And rightfully so. There's no need, if what you have going is working.

Now ... you're on Oral Saw Palmetto. A big fat waste of time in most people's book. Topically Saw Palmetto has more potential for treating hair loss because it can do its work locally. It was not shown in studies to reduce serum DHT enough, when ingested orally. Thats the kicker. Topically however... possibly a different story. So in that light ... Revivogen does have saw palmetto in it... along with these fatty acids.

It would be your choice, then. If Propecia is doing its job, Id say you can even drop the saw palmetto and kick back and enjoy. Im also not big on the logic of "overkill" on maintenance products like Propecia and Revivogen and spironolactone. These arent growth stimulants, per se. If you're on one and its working, then thats sufficient. Taking 3 different "DHT inhibitors" (sorry bryan) when you're already on Propecia may not be necessary.

Anyways, lots of room for opinions and differing viewpoints. Its up to you!

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[misterium]

Wow it takes a lot of balls to work with the enemy..

Those guys need to come correct this time..


Right on.

 

[Trent]

good advice gourmetstylewellness.com. i think propecia is definitely working, and if i regrew just a little bit more i would be pretty happy to maintain for five years, so i guess you make a good point to hold off on revivogen and the like until i really really need them. i'm just so scared to stop using the saw palmetto because i'm seeing results, you know what i mean? I also use a shampoo that actually has saw palmetto in it almost everyday, i alternate maybe two days a week with a regular one. so in your opinion, this shampoo may be helping, i'll stick with it. We have very similar hairlines and hairloss, and you had success so i'm willing to basically do whatever it is you did (even if that means trying saw palmetto for a year and wasting my time)

 

[Bryan]

i was taking a black currant oil which was free fatty acids...

I'll say it again: virtually all natural oils contain only insignificant amounts of free fatty acids. That includes black currant oil and emu oil.

Bryan

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

i'm just so scared to stop using the saw palmetto because i'm seeing results, you know what i mean?

Here's what I just heard:

"i'm just so scared to stop eating chocolate ice cream because im seeing results, you know what i mean?"

I'd bet the house that Propecia will maintain your results even if you stop SP. But do whatcha like, probably no harm done.



gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Bryan]

The only place I know of to get pure fatty acids in their free form is from a chemical company, but it's almost impossible to get such a company to sell chemicals to an ordinary individual

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Procerin people don't have access to a chemical company, but I could be wrong.

Oh, it's not THAT difficult. If you have a legal COMPANY (as opposed to being just some individual John Doe), you can probably set up an account with a chemical company, if you're willing to go to all the trouble. That's what my friend Dave (from alt.baldspot) did.

However, the Revivogen people have an extra neat trick up their sleeve: they don't use PURIFIED fatty acids, just simple mixtures of fatty acids (in their free form, of course) that come from the bulk de-esterification of natural oils like borage and flaxseed. They save a lot of money that way, for both themselves and their users.

Interesting. Would you say its still as effective as Purified fatty acids?

Yes. I'd be astonished if it turned out that the different fatty acids "competed" or "interfered" with each other in some way! That just seems extremely unlikely to me!

Can you talk the guy into putting out a similar product as Revivogen at a better price?

Isn't there already one out, called Crinagen?

Crinagen has a better price, but I don't really consider it to be a "similar product" as Revivogen. I don't think it has nearly the fatty acid content that Revivogen has, so it doesn't really count.

This brings up another question I wanted to ask you. If you could create the ultimate topical hair loss treatment consisting of things we only have good reason to believe will work (versus FDA approved and clinically proven) ... what would it consist of? The procerin people are foaming at the mouth right now for the answer to that question because they're willing to make it. We all know how much they love money, to the point of even lying to people unfortunately ... so maybe their greed will result in our benefit. Then again, the answer to this question could possibly already be answered by you with one word: Proxiphen. Yes ? No ?

Heh...yeah, maybe. But one obvious improvement on Proxiphen would be to substitute a better topical antiandrogen than spironolactone (like RU58841). Another might in fact be to include fatty acids, because to the best of my knowledge, there is no substance in Proxiphen that acts as a 5a-reductase inhibitor.

Bryan

 

[Matgallis]

out of all the hairloss companies you chose the one that makes procerin?

Not a wise choice IMO. Might as well have ken make it.

 

[Bryan]

out of all the hairloss companies you chose the one that makes procerin?

Not a wise choice IMO. Might as well have ken make it.

Oh man...THAT was cold! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Ken already has a highly successful hair loss 'cure' he hasn't got time to boil up another one in his kitchen/toilet combo, there is only so much business you can conduct from a secure hospital.

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

Mag ... look ... in the end, Procerin just wants to make a buck off of people, and they've infested every nook and cranny with Procerin ads. If I can get them to focus that effort on a product that actually works, then we've got a win win situation. Hell. Nobody else is doing sh*t (excuse the french) as far as making new treatments these days. Quite honestly I am blown away at their budget. I have been from the beginning. They must be spending a million just in advertising, which tells me someone with cash is funding this thing.

In my discussions with CJ of procerin, I have called him every name in the book and spat in his general direction. Through it all he has maintained that he has no bad intentions and just wants to sell a helpful product and make a buck off of it. That's capitalism. I have challenged him many times to make a buck selling a product that actually has potential to work.

His responses and understanding of hair loss seemed more like that of a general practitioner. He didn't get some of the nuances and important things someone should know about treating hair loss. He didn't seem like the most educated on the topic. That lead me to believe maybe the guy isn't just a dick. Maybe he's just somewhat uninformed.

That branched off into the discussion of ... "okay well... Mister GourmetStyleWellness ... why don't you tell me what will work then, and Ill make it." I basically replied "Oh yeah? Well I dare you to." So that's how we got where we are today. If I can get the guy to scrap Procerin and start advertising and creating something that will help people, then that would be great.

Hell ... Procerin is tricking more people out of hair right now than any product, and I can't get away from their millions of websites. They are all over google in every place, and that pisses me off. And the cool part is I have been candid and told CJ that. He respects it. What's worse ... he has over 300 clueless websites that sell hair products also selling Procerin. It is one of those jerks that hacked my server and sent GourmetStyleWellness reeling a few months back. They have quite a reach.

I thought ... for a moment... what if i could get this guy to realize the error of his ways, and use his powers for good instead of evil? It was a longshot, but surprisingly, he is totally open to it. So I realize its weird, and different, but we started discussing the "what ifs" ... what if you guys made something that I felt people would benefit from? He was open to the idea. If it ends up that Procerin gets pulled from the shelves and this new product gets onto 300 affiliate websites instead ... then I will have done something good, and actually done it the ethical, honest way too. If I do nothing, the procerin product will continue to make money and people probably won't benefit from it.

So anyways, that was my thought process.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

Bryan - here is CJ's reply. Thoughts?

-------------------------
To address this, I work with 2 cGMP-certified labs based in the US, and 1 Canadian one as well. 2 of them have already confirmed with me that the free-form GLA/ALA is not a problem to get/extract, its less expensive than processed and purified oil. Getting it to mix and stay mixed with other ingredients is tricky, its fairly thick stuff unless you water it down, and it doesn't dissolve readily into solution. Past that, my knowledge of the chemistry runs into a wall, but I have access to several chemists and a dermatologist that are pretty sharp. The other ingredients I'm told are all fairly easy to get ahold of, and I have very good relations with my labs/chemists so they will provide whatever assistance necessary.

[Maybe if we create something that works], you could have access to alot of information and, perhaps just as important, test subjects. My "people" can get the ingredients in the proper forms, assign their chemists to assist, and handle all regulatory issues, but the key is to get a proper test group together. My general thought is: once we came up with a mix of ingredients that was agreeable to all, got it formulated ( which I can do pretty quickly with some advance to notice to my chemists at the labs), then you guys offer it, free of charge, to willing participants via your sites to test. I know a board-certified dermatologist with a PhD in nutrition who would be potentially interested in overseeing such a study, or we could select someone else that all agreed would be a good candidate.

My general idea (open to all change/criticism) is that my company would wok with you guys to reach a proper formulation,and front all the development and production costs to get enough finished product to conduct a full, scientifically valid test. You ... would need to raise volunteers via your sites that would be willing to test a new product and report their results, whatever they may be. None of this is written in stone of course, these are just the ideas that pop into my head and seem to make the most sense, let me know your thoughts.
----------------------------

Bryan ... is RU prescription? I suggested something with spironolactone to him but he pointed out correctly that its considered a medication (script) so can't just be included in a topical.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Guest]

what kinda money we talking about here? does he want an avatar, I'm not cheap....

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

By the way, the difference between this idea and Ken ... is that we are using them to create a product that will help people, and has legit science backing it. Ken has no such product.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Guest]

By the way, the difference between this idea and Ken ... is that we are using them to create a product that will help people, and has legit science backing it. Ken has no such product.

gourmetstylewellness.com

this is simply not true, Ken does a nice line in those little jackets for dogs, mostly in tartans, I believe the line is called rK9teen, you telling me this does not help people?