Bryan's chart...

[Andrea]

Hi everyone,
I read with attemption the Bryan's chart... Very very interesting!

It seems that only with 1mg (ore more..) of Dutasteride (2 capsules) there is a very hard suppression of 5 alpha Reductase type 2 (totally after 28 days) and it persist to a long long time... At any other dosages (under 1mg) this suppression is very similar at 5mg of finasteride.
The power of Dutasteride is more expressed against the type 1 that seems to have a minor role in male pattern baldness...
So, probably is possible take dutas 2/week but it's very important take 1mg (two capsules togheter).
What do you think?

Sorry for my English...

 

[Guest]

You read it wrong if you think that 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day only gives slightly more type 2 suppression than 5 mg of finasteride a day. 5 mg of finasteride a day gives around 90% and 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day gives around 98.5%. That's 85% more compared to 5 mg a day of finasteride. 1 mg of dutasteride a day gives only a negligible difference in type 1 suppression compared to 0.5 mg a dutasteride of day. Now, 2.5 mg of dutasteride a day knocks out just about all the type 2 5ar activity, but is that healthy? I don't know.

 

[Timi]

I think DHT Inhibit is not so important
70% or 95%

It is more the aggressiveness
We must DHT tame


And not go to zero DHT

It has often emphasized that a higher dose is not better

Timi

 

[Andrea]

you don't understande me...
Take a look:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2b.htm

The suppression of enzymes...

Only with 1mg the suppression is TOTALLY.

Try to insert 0,5mg in the chart...

 

[Guest]

I think DHT Inhibit is not so important
70% or 95%

It is more the aggressiveness
We must DHT tame


And not go to zero DHT

It has often emphasized that a higher dose is not better

Timi

You are dead wrong. There is no evidence that suppressing a larger % of type 2 5ar DHT results in more hair loss. There is a lot of evidence from studies that it results in less hair loss, and more hair growth, as well.

Anecdotal reports of dutasteride on these forums do not count as evidence, Timi.

 

[Guest]

you don't understande me...
Take a look:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2b.htm

The suppression of enzymes...

Only with 1mg the suppression is TOTALLY.

Try to insert 0,5mg in the chart...

It's NOT perfectly linear. If it was directly correlated to dose, then 2.5 mg would be inhibiting about 250% of the type 2 enzyme. This is obviously impossible, because the maximum is 100%. Bryan has posted before that it is NOT perfectly linear and NOT directly correlated with dose. You can't just insert it like that.

0.1 mg of dutasteride per day is equal to 5 mg of finasteride a day in terms of type 2 inhibition. Bryan has posted that before. 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day after reaching steady state will inhibit around 98.5% of type 2 5ar in the follicles. And if I remember correctly, 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day will inhibit approximately 50% of type 1 5ar in the follicles. 1.0 mg of dutasteride per day does NOT have any sizeable difference compared to 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day, but 2.5 mg of dutasteride a day did show a considerable difference in studies compared to 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day. As Bryan has posted before, this is probably due to increased inhibition of the 5ar1 enzyme, and not the complete inhibition of type 2 5ar, because the standard 0.5 mg of dutasteride dose, the same dose I take, is already knocking out 98.5%, which is almost complete inhibition anyway. 1 mg of finasteride a day will only knock out around 85% of type 2 5ar after reaching study state and almost no type 1. This is why finasteride is less effective than dutasteride.

 

[Lordutasteride]

My stomach has grown very fast with Avodart .I have gaining a lot of weight. Is there anybody who has gained some weight with duta too?

 

[Guest]

Ok do me a favor lord. Don't post the exact same question in two separate dutasteride threads, because even if it spawns a discussion, now you've just split it into different threads, which makes things messy.

 

[Timi]

My stomach has grown very fast with Avodart .I have gaining a lot of weight. Is there anybody who has gained some weight with duta too?

Yes Bodyfat is more and the face-Neck swollen-Bold

Timi

 

[Andrea]

Hello Jayman,
Thanks for the reply!
But in the chart i read that after 28 days at 1mg/day the type2 goes to ZERO and only after 1month is regenereted, it's true?
So, if you take a daily dose I agree with you that the best choice is 0,5 but if you want take 2 caps/weekly (for example) is necessary a higer concentration of the drug (1 mg) to mantain a level of 5AR 2 very low (more than finasteride daily).
What do you think?

 

[powersam]

twice a week will give you as good inhibition as 5mg finasteride daily. so why not? there is no recommended dose of avodart for hair loss, so look at the charts and decide what you think is best. my suggestion is to keep it low though.

one of the reasons i take 0.5mg twice a week is that it suppresses the type 2 enzyme well over 90%, but the type 1 only 15% or so, which i think is good for safety reasons. also, i am on it and it works, so why would i change anything?

 

[CCS]

You read it wrong if you think that 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day only gives slightly more type 2 suppression than 5 mg of finasteride a day. 5 mg of finasteride a day gives around 90% and 0.5 mg of dutasteride a day gives around 98.5%. That's 85% more compared to 5 mg a day of finasteride. 1 mg of dutasteride a day gives only a negligible difference in type 1 suppression compared to 0.5 mg a dutasteride of day. Now, 2.5 mg of dutasteride a day knocks out just about all the type 2 5ar activity, but is that healthy? I don't know.

the way I see it, balding men have way too much DHT in their follicles, and finasteride just tips it back to near normal, after other factors are considered. I don't think finasteride affects the whole body enough to be a problem even if enzyme blocking is bad. I just don't know enough biochem to know what dutasteride would do, but fdA is not worried.

 

[Bryan]

the way I see it, balding men have way too much DHT in their follicles, and finasteride just tips it back to near normal, after other factors are considered.

While I suspect it's true that balding men have at least somewhat more DHT in their follicles on average than non-balding men, I really doubt that that's an essential feature of balding. I think the essential feature of balding is that there exists an unusual sensitivity to androgens in balding hair follicles.

Also, if I'm correct about the implications of the Gisleskog et al studies, the use of Propecia would be expected to reduce DHT within hair follicles by maybe around 85% or so (I acknowledge that there's a fair amount of uncertainty when we start citing specific numbers like that). I don't think that such a relatively sharp reduction in DHT within hair follicles would "normalize" them at all; I think it's just that one of the very few ways we have of fighting that unusual sensitivity to DHT is to knock the DHT itself down to levels WAAAY below normal.

 

[Timi]

Hi Bryan

What is with Topic Finasterid?
here a Report

1997 JOURNAL Of DERMATOLOGICAL TREATMENT 8(3):189-192
mazzarella f; Loconsole f; Cammisa A; Mastrolonardo M; Vena GA
Topical finasteride in the treatment of androgenic alopecia. Preliminary evaluations after a 16-month therapy course

Topical fINASTERIDE has potential in the treatment of androgenic alopecia, report researchers from Italy. In this pilot study, 52 patients (28 men) with androgenic alopecia applied a topical finasteride 0.005% solution (n=26), or vehicle (26), twice daily for 16 months. Journal of Dermatological Treatment 8: 189-192, Sep 1997

Mazzarella Report


They used a typical vehicle of 50% ethanol, 25% propylene glycol, and 25% water. The results were measured (in part) by taking monthly photographs, and then comparing the photos at the end of the 16-month trial. The photos were graded on the following scale:

5 Complete restoration of hair density
4 Marked reduction of balding area(s)
3 Slight reduction of balding area(s)
2 No change compared to baseline
1 Slight enlargement of balding area(s)
0 Marked enlargement of balding area(s)

Here is the paragraph from their "Evaluation of hair regrowth" section:

"During the first 3 months of the trial, the clinical response was not significant. The scores for hair regrowth ranged from 1 to 2 with no significant difference between the two study groups. By contrast, throughout the subsequent course of the study a significant improvement in the status of the scalp hair was observed among the finasteride-treated patients. At the end of the study, the clinical results were scored 4 in 12 patients and 3 in the remaining 14. Response to treatment was substantiated by both an increase in the hair density at the periphery of balding areas and a progressive, though slow and incomplete retrieval of the hair texture within previously bare sites. Patients initially grew vellus-type hair that tended to change to thicker, pigmented terminal hair as the clinical response progressed. As for the group receiving placebo, only ten patients were evaluable at the end of the study. The high number of dropouts was a result of the lack of any improvement in the status of the scalp hair. These results were scored as follows: 2 in three patients, 1 in three patients and 0 in four patients."

"Of the 52 patients enrolled, 36 (69.2%) completed the entire study period. Notably, all dropouts occurred in the placebo group after 1 to 10 months. Moreover, the overall tolerability of the treatment was excellent. No patient experienced any local or systemic untoward effect. In particular, in the finasteride group laboratory data indicated revealed no relevant change in plasma levels of total testosterone, free testosterone or dihydrotestosterone. On the basis of these findings any significant percutaneous absorption of the drug could reasonably be excluded."[/quote]

 

[Bryan]

Yes, the Mazzarella study was one of the ones claiming to get a good result with topical finasteride.

 

[Andrea]

Hello Bryan,
what do you think about DHT on the scalp?
I read your interesting charts but there is no mention about this...
If finasteride works topically probably the scalp DHT is more important than serum DHT.
So, 2,5mg of dutasteride reduces significantly better DHT than finasteride or dutasteride at any other dosages...
Do yuo believe that a dose of 2,5mg weekly could be reduces DHT ON THE SCALP better than 0,5mg everyday (even in a long term)?????
I don't understand this...
Thanks and happy new year!
Andrea

 

[stax]

Hey Bryan, is DHT reduced after your first dutasteride capsule?

And if so how much around?


Thanks.

 

[Bryan]

Hello Bryan,
what do you think about DHT on the scalp?
I read your interesting charts but there is no mention about this...
If finasteride works topically probably the scalp DHT is more important than serum DHT.
So, 2,5mg of dutasteride reduces significantly better DHT than finasteride or dutasteride at any other dosages...
Do yuo believe that a dose of 2,5mg weekly could be reduces DHT ON THE SCALP better than 0,5mg everyday (even in a long term)?????

I've always hated the term "scalp DHT", because it's rather ambiguous. Taken literally it would mean the total amount of DHT found in the scalp, which would include not only hair follicle DHT, but also the DHT in sebaceous glands and other areas of the skin like sweat glands. I don't think those other locations of DHT are nearly as important as follicular DHT, so I think we should avoid talking about "scalp DHT" in the first place.

Yes, obviously 2.5 mg/day of dutasteride would reduce all sources of DHT better than 0.5 mg/day.

 

[Bryan]

Hey Bryan, is DHT reduced after your first dutasteride capsule?

Sure.

And if so how much around?

After studying all those charts I've posted, it looks to me like approximately Propecia-like levels of DHT reduction are achieved after only a couple or so Avodart capsules are taken.

 

[stax]

Thanks Bryan, just wanted to make sure because i did a little experiment after 2 days on Dutasteride, and wanted to know if my DHT was reduced to Propecia levels during this time.


Thanks again.