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CBS Evening News tommorow...balding cure

Chrisknight

Chrisknight

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michael barry said:
Fabio,

Curis is a company that is researching cellular-based technolgies. They are looking at certain chemicals present in cells that can be of use in treating various disorders, etc.

They have had much success in trials in getting shaven mice to regrow hair extremely quickly. But thats the problem (Ive seen these pictures), shaven mice aren't bald men. There is a world of difference. Getting hair to grow "fast" does not mean you can get miniaturized damaged philosebaceous units that have suffered alot of immuno damage to "regrow" somehow. Im not real excited about what they are doing.


Fabio,
As far as we can tell, baldness looks like androgens (particularily DHT) "do something" (Dr. Proctor) to your hair, and the immune system begins to see the hair as a foriegn body and begins a mild attack on it. Cut the androgens, the attack lessens greatly. Cut the androgens altogether (castration) and the attack stops, but you dont get that much hair back. The skin around the "gone" follicles has suffered from much micro-inflammatory damage and the follicle itself is "scarred" microscopically. Its been stated on Proctor's site that Cyclosporin, an organ rejection drug regrows more hair than castration does. Cyclosporin is an immuno-suppressant, so dont take it. It would kill you if you took it for too long. Thats what they give organ recipeints so their immune systems wont reject new hearts, livers, etc.
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I gave someone your post and asked if he could give his opinion on it. This is it.

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First let me ask you what part of the hair follicle is getting attacked by the immune system? Is it attacking the part that supplies blood to the hair root?

a3469_1246.JPG


Well lets see. Like I said I am not expert on hair loss, but let me assume what everything is correct above (which it probably is--referring to Michael Barry's post)

When Hh is turned on you get cells that are not as detectable by the immune system. Maybe there is some sort of relationship there. I would still like to see what part of the hair is attacked by the immune system. But I think it more likely causes the follicle cells to divide thus causing hairs to grow.

The whole theory about the hedgehog pathway comes from Adult Stems Cells. Hair's are thought to contain stem cells and when turned to divide you get hair growth.



"Hair grows from cells located at the base of the hair follicle. Hair follicles continuously cycle through growth, rest, and re-growth phases. In many people with hair loss, however, the follicles do not cycle correctly, with a growing number of abnormal follicles entering longer resting phases and producing only tiny invisible hairs.

Penn researchers suspected that stem cells located within the follicle bulge were responsible for hair growth.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 073634.htm"
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Adult stem cells might hold to the key to the next generation of targets for therapeutic purposes including hair growth, cancer, and regenerative medicine. Adult stem cells are controlled by only a few pathways such as Hedgehog, Wnt, Notch, and a few others. These pathways are thought to be the master regulators of a lot of other pathways.


You can also say that in chemo induced alopecia hedgehog was also able to regrow hair as well. If you nock out hedgehog in embryonic development you don't get any hair growth....
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I'm still excited by that little ole Hedgehog.
 
FabioM

FabioM

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Michael Barry thanks for the explanation...no wonder i´m getting some white thingies coming out of my head,it´s the atack my immune system is doing to my hair.

I´m more inclined to accept HM as the real cure for hairloss but people are speaking about it for some years no and nothing happens
 
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michael barry

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Chris Night,

Here is a little something on the immune attack from Dr. Peter Proctor's (hairloss-researcher) website: "Emerging Model for Pattern Balding (after Kligman, others )
Balding begins when male sex hormones do "something " to the scalp hair follicle which causes it to be read as a "foreign body". Your immune system then mounts an attack on the hair folllicle. The main damage in pattern hair loss is probably immunologically-mediated. Damage to lining of blood vessels, which produces hair growth factors, makes the balding process worse. "

That info is from this page: http://www.drproctor.com/baldfaq1.htm

Check out what Proctor goes on to say "Microscopically, balding looks like organ rejection. That is, increased number of immune system cells clustor round the base of the scalp hair follicle. Interestingly, lessor numbers of immune system cells normally cluster around the hair follicle. These may have a role in the normal hair cycle.



Organ rejection drugs ( e.g., cyclosporin ) reverse balding better than antiandrogens. This gives a rough indication of the relative importance of hormonal verses immunological factors in maintaining the balding state. Conversely, cyclosporin and similar agents may also have a "phenytoin-like" action on follicles which induces hair regrowth, separate from their immunosuppressive properties"


Proctor also discusses minoxidil, and why it works: "Blood Vessel Lining in Pattern Hair Loss


Minoxidil, other agents apparently imitate hair growth factors ( nitric oxide radical, etc. ) produced by vessel lining. For a paper on this, go here. In diseases involving damage to vessel lining (e.g., atherosclerosis) production of these hair regrowth factors decreases. Such diseases are associated epidemiologically with severe balding. Also, decreases in circulation reported in balding scalp may reflect local damage to vessel linings. Alternately, some deficit in both the blood vessel and the hair follicle produces coincidental deterioration in both organs, producing hair loss. Again, a good candidate is the nitric oxide/superoxide system"



The hedgehog pathway that Curis is looking into is interesting. Believe me, I hope it "cures" baldness and makes us grow back all our hair, and we dont get cancer from it, etc.

These are pictures of mice treated with Curis' hedgehog pathway drug here http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full . Pretty impressive isnt it? However, copper peptides have very drammatic results on mice too (Skinbio.com has a great picture of this, and Proctor's site has another). Believe me, I hope "this is it and all", but I do temper my hopes with the realization that shaven mice arent balding men with Androgenic Alopecia. Our balding is much more complicated. I wish I had a link handy that contains Hideo Uno's description of it.....I'll look around for it. Its amazing.

Thats some impressive info you posted by the way. Man, I keep telling myself that some bald scientist somewhere is going to figure out this particularily frustrating problem for humanity someday. Ive been expectin a "cure for baldness" since reading an article in the late 80's that confidently predicted the end of it by the turn of the century. Funny, I was watching a preacher's sermon today who was talking about visiting people in Africa (quite a few men there shave their heads) that use sticks to stetch out their ears sort of like large mouse ears and use neck rings to stretch the women's necks out until they are much longer than normal. They think its beautiful, and many keep their hair very short/shaven. The things we'll do for our appearance. Funny, aint it? I'd just like my hairline back. LOL
 
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michael barry

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Fabio and Chris,

This paragraph is from Uno's HISTOPATHOLGY OF HAIRLOSS and deals with the immuno attack:

"In alopecia skin, tha abnormal streamers underneath the follicles appear to be a structural barrier for the down-growth of anagen follicles. Moreover, severe inflammatory involvement in the streamers causes suppressive growth of the follicular bulb and dermal papilla cells. Dense collagenous or hyalinized scarring streamers block the growth of follicles. These follicular structures naturally resist any therapeutic effect for follicular growth. Moreover, associations of focal perivascular and perifollicular inflammatory cell infiltrations are often seen in alopecic skin."


A guy called THE ALMIGHTY GOD OF HAIRLOSS, who like Bryan Shelton, has read tons about the condition wrote the following paragraph about Uno's work with human vs. macaque baldness. I proboably learned more reading the following than I did in a couple of months research on my own (because TAGHL is alot smarter than I am). Enjoy:

Androgens, male pattern baldness, and human vs. macaques"


Guys,

Hideo Uno, an expert on male pattern baldness, published an OUTSTANDING paper on human vs. macaque baldness. I was very glad to read this paper, because it validates everything that I have said and thought regarding male pattern baldness.

If you read nothing else in this post, PLEASE (I beg you!) read the excerpts written by Hideo Uno, which are VERY, VERY important, and explains the key to fighting male pattern baldness in the most successful way possible. It also explains why some people don't respond to treatments like dutasteride. Anyone who wants a thorough understanding of human alopecia should read this entire post carefully!

This post will also prove what group of users are most credible in this forum. That is, it shows that myself, Bryan, Marco, Frizz, etc. have been right all long. The foremost experts in the world verify what we've been telling you all these months.

CommoneSense, I think Dr. Uno's statements are going to shock you, but more importantly, they are going to educate you on male pattern baldness. After reading his comments, I sincerely hope you change your outlook and recommendations on the treatment of male pattern baldness.

In this paper, Hideo Uno covers the histopathology of both macaque *AND* human baldness. Despite what some uninformed readers say, human baldness is a complicated disorder which involves more than just androgens.

Point number one: The histopathology of human and macaque baldness, while similar, HAVE SOME KEY DIFFERENCES.

We know that macaques respond more favorably to baldness treatments than do humans (especially to antiandrogen treatments). And we know that the response rate among macaques is remarkably consistent; i.e., they all get similar results (in contrast to humans, where we see greatly varying results among individuals).

So, why do macaques get better and more consistent results? Because macaque baldness is purely a genetic and androgen-driven disease. Human baldness is much more complicated, hence decreased results and a whole range of responses to various treatments.

Why is human baldness more complicated? For starters, human baldness involves inflammation and fibrosis. In macaque baldness, inflammation and fibrosis is absent among all macaques (source: Uno's study below). This is a key difference between macaque and human baldness. And since inflammation generates a slew of potent hair growth inhibitors (IL-1, TNF-alpha, TGF-beta1, etc.), and since fibrosis scars the structure of the follicle itself, this explains the difference in results between humans and macaques. Also, macaques are not exposed to other factors which inhibit hair growth, like stress, smoking, poors diets/insulin resistance, etc.

Don't believe me? Hideo Uno verifies everything I've said above. Keep reading....

Point number two: all of those who think that antiandrogens are the be-all and end-all of treatments are severely misguided, and do not understand the pathology of human pattern baldness.

In particular, CommonSense (and other like-minded readers) has long dismissed the involvment of factors other than androgens and genetics. He wants you to believe that androgens are the ONLY factor involved, and the ONLY factor we should address. Also, he continuously downplays any other approach to fighting male pattern baldness, such as antiinflammatory and anti-fibrotic treatments.

So, who to believe? Me, Bryan, Frizz, Marco, etc., or CommonSense? Well, I will let the experts tell you in their own words. To make a long story short, CS is completely misguided, and below is the proof from one of the foremost experts on hair loss in the world.

So, without further ado, here is some excerpts from Hideo Uno:

Citation:

Androgenetic alopecia in the stumptailed macaque: an important model for investigating the pathology and antiandrogenic therapy of male pattern baldness. Hideo Undo, etc. al. Chapter 11, Hair and its Disorders: Biology, Pathology and Management; published by Martin Dunitz Ltd, 2000.

Excerpts (in qoutes):

"... However, our recent comparative studies on the histopathology of human and macaque androgenetic alopecia revealed critical differences in pathological manifestations between these two counterparts (19)."

My comment: this next excerpt is a very important point that everyone should know about.

"The histopathological changes of the human androgenetic alopecia have been described by many investigators. Besides a miniaturization of follicles, fibrogranulomatous or collagenous streamers are beneath the follicles, together with focal perivascular and perifollicular inflammatory cell infiltrations, and varying degrees of fibrosis have been reported (Table 1)."

My comment: this next excerpt has more IMPORTANT details on human male pattern baldness, and why some people simply fail to respond to treatments.

"In alopecia skin, tha abnormal streamers underneath the follicles appear to be a structural barrier for the down-growth of anagen follicles. Moreover, severe inflammatory involvement in the streamers causes suppressive growth of the follicular bulb and dermal papilla cells (see Figure 8a). Dense collagenous or hyalinized scarring streamers block the growth of follicles (Figure 8b and c). These follicular structures naturally resist any therapeutic effect for follicular growth. Moreover, associations of focal perivascular and perofollicular inflammatory cell infiltrations are often seen in alopecic skin."

My comment: Dr. Uno now summarizes the pathology of macaque baldness. Please note that it is different than human alopecia in that hair loss develops evenly, whereas in humans there are many different patterns of hair loss, and that alopecia in macaques develops very rapidly, whereas in humans it's much, much slower. Additionally, there is NO INFLAMMATION IN macaque baldness.

"In the macaque, alopecia develops evenly in the entire frontal scalp during a relatively short period after the elevation of androgens during puberty. In the macaque alopecia, the histopathological changes comprise simply of miniaturization of the follicles, with those follicles remaining in telogen for a long period. There is no inflammatory involvement in the dermis and no adnormal streamers underneath the follicles, unlike the human counterpart."

My comment: Dr. Uno now says macaques respond better to treatments than humans, based on all of the available data.

"... However, presumably because of the different pathological backgrounds between macaque and human alopecia, macaque alopecia responded more strongly and homogeneously than human alopecia (Table 3)."

My comment: A VERY IMPORTANT, key point here by Dr. Uno.

"Furthermore, in human androgenetic alopecia, therapeutic approaches cannot simply rely on either hypertrichotic or antiandrogenic agents or even a combination of both. For further therapeutic improvement, it may be necessary to use combined treatment with antiandrogenic and antiinflammatory, as well as anti-fibrotic agents; hypertrichotic agents, such as minoxidil, or other potassium channel openers in addition, may enhance efficacy."

My comment: To sum it all up, here are Dr. Uno's conclusions. This paragraph is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!!!!

"... Nonetheless, the complexity of the pathological changes in human androgenetic alopecia appears to hamper the effects of these hair growth-stimulating agents. Thus, results obtained from the macaque, which has no such complications, usually show much greater and homogeneous effects than those obtained in human alopecia. The pathologoical changes associated with regressed follicles in human androgenetic alopecia have been described by many investigators. However, more studies on the histogenesis of inflammatory streamers, dermal lymphocytic infiltrations, and the process of focal fibrotic changes are necessary to fully define this disorder. For further improvement of therapy, combined pharmacological interventions may be needed to reduce or prevent inflammatory and fibrotic processes in human alopecic skin."

Regards,
The Almighty God of Hair loss
 
G

Guest

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So chill lol...so what would you recommend like types of drugs besides propecia and minoxidil, to combat those other factors such as antiinflammatory drugs etc etc.
 
hairhaircomeagain

hairhaircomeagain

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michael barry said:
hairhaircomeagain,

GlaxoSmithKline decided not to market dutasteride as a hair growing indication. They declined to go for phase 3 trials.
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Mike....Very helpful posts...All of em...Thanks.

Thats what worries me about dutasteride the most. There must be a big reason why a company after spending millions of dollars and also clearing Phase II will not go for Phase 3. They surely found something about dutasteride which may prove harmful to humans in the short or long run..Thats what worries me about dutasteride.

Actually thats what worries me about Propecia too....Merck may not have been as ethical as Glaxo about thinkin on the long term effect of Propecia and released it in the market. This maybe a completely stupid statement.

But as far as dutasteride is concerened, can anyone throw some light as to why Glaxo moved away from it.
 
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michael barry

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hairhaircomeagain,

You might already know this, but if you dont...............we have a biolgocial model for men with no type 2 alpha five reductase enzymes genetically. There are famlies in Peurto Rico and some Guatemalan men without the this type of alpha five. They dont develop obvious sexual organs until puberty though, and sometimes are mistaken for little girls as boys.......very small penises until puberty.
However, after puberty they grow to normal size and live healthy happy lives. They never lose their hair or develop acne. Until puberty though......they have less muscle tone than other boys. I wish I still had that link. Proscar has been around 20 years or so now. Havent heard of men having bad effects after all that time. Ive seen Bryan post that during trials some men recieved 50mg doses of finasteride and side effects didnt, believe it or not, get worse. Interesting. Propecia is proboably okey-dokey.


TheMoose,
Using Nizoral a couple of times a week has anti-inflammatory properites. Coal tar and salycic acid shampoos are anti-inflammatory to an extent also. Wouldnt use em' every day, but a rotation of the three might not be bad. You know just rinsing your hair with cold water would help a bit. Apple cider vinegar is a pretty fair anti-inflammatory thats very cheap and on grocery store shelves. Those things might help a tad. Copper peptides are proboably the best anti-inflammatory choice we have at the moment. Proanthocyanidins (that you can literally make at home out of green apples, alchohol, couple of herbs...........recipie on hairsite under waseda) have anti-inflammatory actions supposedly. Cold water rinses are free : )
 
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ANDREW_J_I

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^ is this for hm or cloning? ot something different. looked confusing.
 
DaSand

DaSand

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powersam

powersam

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ahh but the thing is jeffss that as your 'assurance' is based on nothing but pessimism it holds little weight. until you actually have something factual to back up your statements you'd best hold of on assuring people of anything.
 
News2

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It's on page 17. here's the relevant quote:

To date, progress has been on track. ARI completed preclinical trials with animals, which paves the way for Phase I human clinical trials. At present, the company is engaged in preparing applications to gain approval from th U.S. Food and Drug Administration for the Phase I clinical trial. Therefore, a practical date for commercialization will be in 2008 or later, and efforts are directed earnestly toward this goal.
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I also feel that 2008 is a bit optimistic. (I think it'll be out in late 2009/early 2010.) However, this is the second time since April that the guys from ARI have stated that they expect it to be out by late 2008, so maybe they know more than we do...
 
News2

News2

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Just a thought: Intercytex are about to start Phase II trials, and they have stated that they're aiming for a 2010 release. ARI, on the other hand, have not even started Phase I trials. Therefore it is unlikely (in my opinion) that their product will be on the market in 2008.
 
nervx

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News2 said:
Just a thought: Intercytex are about to start Phase II trials, and they have stated that they're aiming for a 2010 release. ARI, on the other hand, have not even started Phase I trials. Therefore it is unlikely (in my opinion) that their product will be on the market in 2008.
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Depends where they launch the treatment. In japan you can get a new drug on the market in less than a year but some people think ARI will use the intercytex phase I trials to skip it and go directly to two.
 
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ANDREW_J_I

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whats going to be better, HM or hair cloning?
 
nervx

nervx

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ANDREW_J_I said:
whats going to be better, HM or hair cloning?
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they're the same thing. i don't know if HM is classified as true cloning but the media calls it by a variety of names.
 
R

RTJBJ

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nervx said:
but some people think ARI will use the intercytex phase I trials to skip it and go directly to two.
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i thought the result will be proprietary to Intercytex, like other trials

can they do that.. ??

and other question, how do you get these kind of info. Very exciting i must say, but still we never heard or read it else where..
 
nervx

nervx

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i thought the result will be proprietary to Intercytex, like other trials

can they do that.. ??
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I don't know it's just an idea someone mentioned. Both companies were working together up until moving into trials so it's possible phase I could be identical between the two companies and only the injection procedure/dose amount is different.
 
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