Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

[IdealForehead]

But if Merck or whoever has the patent gets it through phase 3 for prostate cancer and then turns around and does the same thing for hairloss the price would come down if it were manufactured on a wide scale. Once it became generic then it would be really affordable.

Hilariously, in 3-5 years, once this is ~$40 a gram like enza is now, it will simultaneously be the strongest and the cheapest hair loss treatment on the planet.

 

[ALightInTheDark]

Hilariously, in 3-5 years, once this is ~$40 a gram like enza is now, it will simultaneously be the strongest and the cheapest hair loss treatment on the planet.

In 2-4 years you mean, it will be out in 2019.

 

[Ollie]

As we now have a few individuals doing this can someone log their progress with some regular photos ?

 

[ElTioLaBota]

@IdealForehead my shedding has either stayed the same or increased, I know it's been like 5 days but do you think this is a bad sign?

Good luck buddy!

 

[countjulian]

As we now have a few individuals doing this can someone log their progress with some regular photos ?

@Jonnyyy is doing so, check the "my story" forum.

 

[countjulian]

In 2-4 years you mean, it will be out in 2019.

The company behind it has expressed interest in running trials on it for Androgenetic Alopecia I believe? Is that correct?

 

[IdealForehead]

The company behind it has expressed interest in running trials on it for Androgenetic Alopecia I believe? Is that correct?

According to who or what? I can't see how they ever would. This stuff is so strong you can't risk even drops of it getting spread around a bathroom if kids or pregnant women might use the same bathroom. And orally it's too strong to use for hairloss. It would only be usable as a topical, and it can't ever be safe for broad use as a topical.

I don't see Bayer/Orion ever doing that at all. It will be the #1 prostate cancer drug, but use for hair will always be dangerous and underground/unsanctioned.

 

[countjulian]

According to who or what? I can't see how they ever would. This stuff is so strong you can't risk even drops of it getting spread around a bathroom if kids or pregnant women might use the same bathroom. And orally it's too strong to use for hairloss. It would only be usable as a topical, and it can't ever be safe for broad use as a topical.

I don't see Bayer/Orion ever doing that at all. It will be the #1 prostate cancer drug, but use for hair will always be dangerous and underground/unsanctioned.

I don't remember where but I read in some report on the tests for prostate cancer that they've shown interest in it as a hairloss drug after it gets approved for prostate cancer.

 

[IdealForehead]

I don't remember where but I read in some report on the tests for prostate cancer that they've shown interest in it as a hairloss drug after it gets approved for prostate cancer.

Keep in mind there is not one strong topical antiandrogen approved for hair loss. finasteride topicals have been around since the 90s. RU came out in the 90s. Over 20 years later, neither has been brought to market. Drug companies have to worry about liability, not just what will work. Topical daro for hairloss is a liability nightmare. And oral will rip healthy guys to shreds.

I'm skeptical.

 

[countjulian]

Keep in mind there is not one strong topical antiandrogen approved for hair loss. finasteride topicals have been around since the 90s. RU came out in the 90s. Over 20 years later, neither has been brought to market. Drug companies have to worry about liability, not just what will work. Topical daro for hairloss is a liability nightmare. And oral will rip healthy guys to shreds.

I'm skeptical.

Fina topicals are not too hard to come by. Hanson and Wong makes one and I'm using one by a different compounding pharmacy right now. As long as it's FDA approved specialist pharmacies will be able to mix it for off- label use. I understand your concerns but I don't think most of the players in this space share them.

 

[IdealForehead]

Fina topicals are not too hard to come by. Hanson and Wong makes one and I'm using ome right now. As long as it's FDA approved specialist pharmacies will be able to mix it for off- label use. I understand your concerns but I don't think most of the players in this space share them.

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying - they're off label and compounded. There's a huge difference between getting something compounded and a pharmaceutical company bringing it to market as a conventional therapy that anyone can get. That pharmaceutical company is then absorbing the liability for EVERY USER and what happens to their family members over the course of their users' daily administration for months and years.

When you get something compounded, the liability is shared for the doctor/pharmacy and individual patient. That's small potatoes. You don't get class action lawsuits from that. You get class action lawsuits when major patented treatments offered to millions of men by one pharma company create major risks for a broad range of people.

Bayer-released topical daro is a class action suit waiting to happen.

 

[countjulian]

Yeah, but that's what I'm saying - they're off label and compounded. There's a huge difference between getting something compounded and a pharmaceutical company bringing it to market as a conventional therapy that anyone can get. That pharmaceutical company is then absorbing the liability for EVERY USER and what happens to their family members over the course of their users' daily administration for months and years.

When you get something compounded, the liability is shared for the doctor/pharmacy and individual patient. That's small potatoes. You don't get class action lawsuits from that. You get class action lawsuits when major patented treatments offered to millions of men by one pharma company create major risks for a broad range of people.

Bayer-released topical daro is a class action suit waiting to happen.

You honestly don't think there's any concentration and vehicle combo that would be safe for general consumption? Even a low concentration like .05% in a fast-drying vehicle?

 

[IdealForehead]

You honestly don't think there's any concentration and vehicle combo that would be safe for general consumption? Even a low concentration like .05% in a fast-drying vehicle?

No, because if some guy applies it messily and it gets all over the bathroom, or sheds hair all over the floor, or shares the same pillow in bed, or has a girl run her hands through his hair, and they have a fucked up intersex baby (which can happen even at random), they don't even need to prove daro was the cause. All they have to do is take it to court and prove that daro COULD POSSIBLY cause those problems, and the jury will side with them and Bayer will get fucked in the *** for more than a topical hair loss treatment would even be worth it for them.

I'm sure they have medical lawyers who will tell them all this as well and they won't touch it with a ten foot pole. If I'm wrong, I'll be very surprised. Part of the reason RU was never brought to market (in addition to I'm sure this same risk) is it was not considered a high earning potential treatment. The topical hair loss treatment market is not that big.

Most guys are happy with finasteride and if not, they're ready to go bald. This is also why GSK most likely hasn't bothered to get approval for Avodart (dutasteride) in most countries for hair loss. Not even worth the money and liability for them to get the approval.

Bringing this topically for hair to the market would be insanely high risk and low reward.

 

[countjulian]

No, because if some guy applies it messily and it gets all over the bathroom, or sheds hair all over the floor, or shares the same pillow in bed, or has a girl run her hands through his hair, and they have a fucked up intersex baby (which can happen even at random), they don't even need to prove daro was the cause. All they have to do is take it to court and prove that daro COULD POSSIBLY cause those problems, and the jury will side with them and Bayer will get fucked in the *** for more than a topical hair loss treatment would even be worth it for them.

I'm sure they have medical lawyers who will tell them all this as well and they won't touch it with a ten foot pole. If I'm wrong, I'll be very surprised. Part of the reason RU was never brought to market (in addition to I'm sure this same risk) is it was not considered a high earning potential treatment. The topical hair loss treatment market is not that big.

Most guys are happy with finasteride and if not, they're ready to go bald. This is also why GSK most likely hasn't bothered to get approval for Avodart (dutasteride) in most countries for hair loss. Not even worth the money and liability for them to get the approval.

Bringing this topically for hair to the market would be insanely high risk and low reward.

RU didn't go to market I believe because the patent ran out and the pharma company couldn't have monopolized it for any long period of time. It can be produced now by anyone as a generic, and they didn't want to shell out the money only to see other companies profit off of it. RU is sold over the counter in Indonesia.

I see what you're saying though. I still have hope Daro will be available from compounding pharmacies after it gets FDA approval for prostate cancer so people won't have to buy from China at least.

 

[countjulian]

No, because if some guy applies it messily and it gets all over the bathroom, or sheds hair all over the floor, or shares the same pillow in bed, or has a girl run her hands through his hair, and they have a fucked up intersex baby (which can happen even at random), they don't even need to prove daro was the cause. All they have to do is take it to court and prove that daro COULD POSSIBLY cause those problems, and the jury will side with them and Bayer will get fucked in the *** for more than a topical hair loss treatment would even be worth it for them.

I'm sure they have medical lawyers who will tell them all this as well and they won't touch it with a ten foot pole. If I'm wrong, I'll be very surprised. Part of the reason RU was never brought to market (in addition to I'm sure this same risk) is it was not considered a high earning potential treatment. The topical hair loss treatment market is not that big.

Most guys are happy with finasteride and if not, they're ready to go bald. This is also why GSK most likely hasn't bothered to get approval for Avodart (dutasteride) in most countries for hair loss. Not even worth the money and liability for them to get the approval.

Bringing this topically for hair to the market would be insanely high risk and low reward.

Also couldn't some of this risk be averted if it's kept as prescription only, and the patient is given careful instructions on its use? After all women aren't even suppossed to touch finasteride.

 

[IdealForehead]

Also couldn't some of this risk be averted if it's kept as prescription only, and the patient is given careful instructions on its use? After all women aren't even suppossed to touch finasteride.

Exactly. Women aren't even supposed to touch finasteride.

How do you specify that women aren't supposed to touch:

- the heads of topical daro users
- the bed sheets of topical daro users
- the sinks of topical daro users
- the hairs that fall on the floors of topical daro users

It's completely impossible. Them bringing this to market would be a lawyer's wet dream.

Compounding will always still be possible if you can find a doctor to write you a compounding script. That won't be easy I will bet.

 

[countjulian]

Exactly. Women aren't even supposed to touch finasteride.

How do you specify that women aren't supposed to touch:

- the heads of topical daro users
- the bed sheets of topical daro users
- the sinks of topical daro users
- the hairs that fall on the floors of topical daro users

It's completely impossible. Them bringing this to market would be a lawyer's wet dream.

You could make a very fast drying compound and gives instructions that the user should always wash their hair before going to bed at night. I think you're being a bit extreme with the trace amounts that would be left on single hairs.

 

[IdealForehead]

You could make a very fast drying compound and gives instructions that thevuse should always wash their hair before going to bed at night. I think you're being a bit extreme with the trace amounts that would be left on single hairs.

That is one possibility. Someone asked earlier what would happen if you apply it for five minutes then rinse it off.

I still think you'd run into liability problems from the residue in tubs, plus again this is really not going to be worth enough money to them to be bothered with all this nonsense.

Cosmetic treatments need to be EXTRA safe because they are not life saving. It is expected if you're offering a cosmetic treatment the risk should be extremely low for it to be justifiable.

 

[countjulian]

That is one possibility. Someone asked earlier what would happen if you apply it for five minutes then rinse it off.

I still think you'd run into liability problems from the residue in tubs, plus again this is really not going to be worth enough money to them to be bothered with all this nonsense.

Cosmetic treatments need to be EXTRA safe because they are not life saving. It is expected if you're offering a cosmetic treatment the risk should be extremely low for it to be justifiable.

I see what you're saying. I still think there's a chance. The side effect profile on this blows fina out of the water IMO and I think there's a big market out there for that. Welly have to see what they do with that.

What do you think of its potential off-label? Similar to Avodart for stubborn cases at the current moment. If it's available off-label through compounding pharmacies for $100 give or take I would consider that highly available.

 

[Jonnyyy]

That is one possibility. Someone asked earlier what would happen if you apply it for five minutes then rinse it off.

I still think you'd run into liability problems from the residue in tubs, plus again this is really not going to be worth enough money to them to be bothered with all this nonsense.

Cosmetic treatments need to be EXTRA safe because they are not life saving. It is expected if you're offering a cosmetic treatment the risk should be extremely low for it to be justifiable.

So what does happen if you apply leave it for a few minutes then wash it off? Obviously it won't be as effective but shouldn't that mean almost no systematic absorption?