Darolutamide (odm-201), A Better Topical Than Enzalutamide?

[SteveTabernack]

It’s mixed. Most of what I have read about seti is either it doesnt do much or it stops shedding, but you need pge2 for regrowth. The higher oral doses always seem to do better. There have been some good reports from guys who used PSI and mg132 but thing is it’s really hard to get and it’s very expensive.
A lot of the guys are using CB too, and from what I read that seems to yield the best results which is surprising since it’s really just a side-free version of RU. I will say that most of those guys are using a custom vehicle that the private forum makes and sells. No one knows what’s in it bar the guys who make it.

From what I observe, your typical regimen on P H G looks like:
Duta, seti, RU or CB, pge2/castor oil, wounding, LiCl, VPA. Seti is always a staple.
Quite a lot of guys using adenosine, stemox, estriol, and various random growth factors also. To date the most amazing results I’ve seen anywhere have still been full mtf regimens. Regardless, I have learned quite a lot of useful things from the forum and I think if you can get in, it’s great for anyone who’s past the point of usual treatments. It’s also great that these crazy bastards are willing to try really very highly experimental things.. like chlorine dioxide and DIY scalp injections. Actually I’m following a guy who’s about to do home mesotherapy using TB500 and SGF-57. Anyway, if you can get in, it’s a useful resource for many different things.

Interesting, I thought CB was a total dud.

How does one go about joining this secret club lol.

 

[furrydome]

Also personally i will just say I think the idea of a "secret hair forum" is just absurd and the so called "exclusivity" is antithetical to how I believe information should be debated and shared.

On one hand, the exclusivity means it's easier to stay anonymous, and less risky to talk about really extreme treatments. You can also get much higher signal / noise ratio.

 

[Georgie]

Simplest approach is just to add 1-3% dmso to the minoxidil. Eg. Add 1 ml dmso to 40 ml minoxidil.

Expect greater penetration. More side effects. And dmso has an anti-collagen effect on your skin over time.

Used dmso at the beginning until I realized it wasnt necessary. I still get intolerable systemic side effects (dry eyes) above 8 mg per day or so. The systemic side effects and their consistent reproducability proves that the compounds are penetrating just fine without dmso.

Also personally i will just say I think the idea of a "secret hair forum" is just absurd and the so called "exclusivity" is antithetical to how I believe information should be debated and shared.

It’s purely because I’m trying to cut back on minoxidil.
I was thinking of dissolving 20mg in a couple of mls then topping it up with water.

Yeah look I’m not sure why it’s private, and there are plenty of things about it that I don’t mecessarily agree with, but it’s still a highly informative forum. I try not to tread on too many toes.

 

[Georgie]

Interesting, I thought CB was a total dud.

How does one go about joining this secret club lol.

Look, some of them say that it’s the vehicle that’s important, and that their custom stuff is was really helps the CB to work. Personally I’m not willing to venture down that path because AA’s just don’t seem to cut it for me.
I think you need to be invited to join. I’ll pm you.

 

[Georgie]

For those interested in seti - My 3rd day so far, first day i did about 700mg, last two days i've done 1g. I DEFINITELY makes me drowsy. i have no doubts about this after the same fatigue has come over me after ever single dose. Secondly, my shedding has been down today. Usually shed around 120 hairs, today was in the 60's. Feel kind of like a potato with these sides but if it stops my hair falling out, it's worth it.

 

[Kornel]

Where did you get your PGE2 from?

 

[Georgie]

That's awesome. Great news. If it keeps up for you ill give it a shot too for extra insurance.

I'll probably get groggy too. Even all the "nondrowsy" newer antihistamines like cetirizine make me drowsy.

It’s like a mixture of sedation and brain fog. Goes away after a few hours I find.

 

[kawnshawn]

It’s like a mixture of sedation and brain fog. Goes away after a few hours I find.

Weird, I have the exact opposite problem. After taking it I feel wide awake and alert. Good sign that your shedding is down this soon.

 

[Georgie]

Shedding seems to be back today. Long terminal and vellus hairs. Retrograde recession worse by the day. I’ve attached some photos where you can see my hairline has been eaten away and there’s only like a shadow of my temple points left. Lots of loss around and above my ears. You can see where I’ve lost a lot of hair on my temples and that there is only weak hair growing in. What’s bizarre is that I appear To be growing a lot of new hair, but basically all of it is miniturised - colourless, thin, weak, kinks and snaps easily. I’ve tried to take some photos of the hairs from my middle part where you can see this halo of thin short hairs. I plucked one out to show what the quality of the hair looks like. I don’t understand how after being on avodart since November and daro since January, I can still be growing miniturised hairs only (by the way my scalp biopsy stated a while back that I have 80% miniturisation). I’m also losing the inner and outer parts of my eyebrows and my eyelashes are growing thinner and sparser. Got no idea what to do.

 

[IdealForehead]

Shedding seems to be back today. Long terminal and vellus hairs. Retrograde recession worse by the day. I’ve attached some photos where you can see my hairline has been eaten away and there’s only like a shadow of my temple points left. Lots of loss around and above my ears. You can see where I’ve lost a lot of hair on my temples and that there is only weak hair growing in. What’s bizarre is that I appear To be growing a lot of new hair, but basically all of it is miniturised - colourless, thin, weak, kinks and snaps easily. I’ve tried to take some photos of the hairs from my middle part where you can see this halo of thin short hairs. I plucked one out to show what the quality of the hair looks like. I don’t understand how after being on avodart since November and daro since January, I can still be growing miniturised hairs only (by the way my scalp biopsy stated a while back that I have 80% miniturisation). I’m also losing the inner and outer parts of my eyebrows and my eyelashes are growing thinner and sparser. Got no idea what to do.

That makes way more sense. I couldn't see how a pgd2 inhibitor could stop your hair loss in the context of how I understand your hairloss, though I was happy for you if somehow it did work.

Pgd2 is a downstream inflammatory mediator triggered by androgen binding to androgen receptors.

You already:

- have a strong 5-ar to reduce androgens
- have an oral androgen receptor antagonist (dutasteride).
- have the strongest topical antiandrogen (daro)
- are a woman so have low androgen levels to begin with

I have always been skeptical your hair loss is primarily androgenic. Partly why I suggested you try daro was to answer the question definitively which i think the above has done adequately.

If there is no significant androgen binding there will be no signicant downstream pgd2 to inhibit and seti/fevi will not be helpful.

Your hair loss which has occurred all over your body and involves long periods of halted hair growth is not typical of androgenic pattern hair loss.

Your hair loss pattern and history is far better explained in the context of POF eliminating your natural hormones (this eliminating all ER-beta signalling) and ethinyl estradiol stimulating only ER-alpha to induce catagen from the top of your head to the tip of your toes.

The good news is that if that is the case I think the odds of a full or near full recovery are very high once the underlying problem is fixed. The reason androgenic hair loss is an irreversible problem is the inflammation from androgens triggers scarring of the follicles. I am not sure but there is good odds that ER-alpha induced catagen signalling is not an inflammatory process, but rather something along the lines of Telogen Effluvium, which can reverse quite well.

Until you add some ER-beta signalling the categen signalling will continue unabated.

Also as discussed previously you are lucky you started with so much hair as you are still within the very normal range. That continues to buy you time.

 

[Georgie]

That makes way more sense. I couldn't see how a pgd2 inhibitor could stop your hair loss in the context of how I understand your hairloss, though I was happy for you if somehow it did work.

Pgd2 is a downstream inflammatory mediator triggered by androgen binding to androgen receptors.

You already:

- have a strong 5-ar to reduce androgens
- have an oral androgen receptor antagonist (dutasteride).
- have the strongest topical antiandrogen (daro)
- are a woman so have low androgen levels to begin with

I have always been skeptical your hair loss is primarily androgenic. Partly why I suggested you try daro was to answer the question definitively which i think the above has done adequately.

If there is no significant androgen binding there will be no signicant downstream pgd2 to inhibit and seti/fevi will not be helpful.

Your hair loss which has occurred all over your body and involves long periods of halted hair growth is not typical of androgenic pattern hair loss.

Your hair loss pattern and history is far better explained in the context of POF eliminating your natural hormones (this eliminating all ER-beta signalling) and ethinyl estradiol stimulating only ER-alpha to induce catagen from the top of your head to the tip of your toes.

The good news is that if that is the case I think the odds of a full or near full recovery are very high once the underlying problem is fixed. The reason androgenic hair loss is an irreversible problem is the inflammation from androgens triggers scarring of the follicles. I am not sure but there is good odds that ER-alpha induced catagen signalling is not an inflammatory process, but rather something along the lines of Telogen Effluvium, which can reverse quite well.

Until you add some ER-beta signalling the categen signalling will continue unabated.

Also as discussed previously you are lucky you started with so much hair as you are still within the very normal range. That continues to buy you time.

I have actually noticed of late that my scalp has a shiny look to it, particularly on the top of my head. I feel like fibrosis is taking place.

Also, the extreme miniaturisation i'm having which IS dht/androgen related STILL doesn't make sense whilst i'm taking so many dh and androgen blockers. None of it makes sense. Part of me wonders if being on minoxidil isn't detrimental to my hair growth given that it's synchronised growth, but who knows.

 

[IdealForehead]

I have actually noticed of late that my scalp has a shiny look to it, particularly on the top of my head. I feel like fibrosis is taking place.

Also, the extreme miniaturisation i'm having which IS dht/androgen related STILL doesn't make sense whilst i'm taking so many dh and androgen blockers. None of it makes sense. Part of me wonders if being on minoxidil isn't detrimental to my hair growth given that it's synchronised growth, but who knows.

I don't think "none of it makes sense". I think the ER-alpha/beta issue makes sense and is well supported by sufficient science.

Shiny scalp does not guarantee fibrosis. Some of those people with alopecia arreata have very shiny scalps but get total recovery on the oral immune drugs.

Only ever one way to know.

 

[Georgie]

That makes way more sense. I couldn't see how a pgd2 inhibitor could stop your hair loss in the context of how I understand your hairloss, though I was happy for you if somehow it did work.

Pgd2 is a downstream inflammatory mediator triggered by androgen binding to androgen receptors.

You already:

- have a strong 5-ar to reduce androgens
- have an oral androgen receptor antagonist (dutasteride).
- have the strongest topical antiandrogen (daro)
- are a woman so have low androgen levels to begin with

I have always been skeptical your hair loss is primarily androgenic. Partly why I suggested you try daro was to answer the question definitively which i think the above has done adequately.

If there is no significant androgen binding there will be no signicant downstream pgd2 to inhibit and seti/fevi will not be helpful.

Your hair loss which has occurred all over your body and involves long periods of halted hair growth is not typical of androgenic pattern hair loss.

Your hair loss pattern and history is far better explained in the context of POF eliminating your natural hormones (this eliminating all ER-beta signalling) and ethinyl estradiol stimulating only ER-alpha to induce catagen from the top of your head to the tip of your toes.

The good news is that if that is the case I think the odds of a full or near full recovery are very high once the underlying problem is fixed. The reason androgenic hair loss is an irreversible problem is the inflammation from androgens triggers scarring of the follicles. I am not sure but there is good odds that ER-alpha induced catagen signalling is not an inflammatory process, but rather something along the lines of Telogen Effluvium, which can reverse quite well.

Until you add some ER-beta signalling the categen signalling will continue unabated.

Also as discussed previously you are lucky you started with so much hair as you are still within the very normal range. That continues to buy you time.

A small chart of expected treatments for women with Androgenetic Alopecia.

The same article talks about how EE+CPA is a recommended, useful treatment for women with Androgenetic Alopecia.

 

[IdealForehead]

View attachment 83332
A small chart of expected treatments for women with Androgenetic Alopecia.

The same article talks about how EE+CPA is a recommended, useful treatment for women with Androgenetic Alopecia.

So what? As we reviewed premenopausal women have normal levels of estradiol/estriol/estrone (even on high dose ocp) which might provide natural ER-beta stimulation to counteract the effect of EE's continuous exclusive ER-alpha stimulation.

You dont.

 

[Georgie]

So what? As we reviewed premenopausal women have normal levels of estradiol/estriol/estrone (even on high dose ocp) which will provide natural ER-beta stimulation to counteract the effect of EE's continuous exclusive ER-alpha stimulation.

You dont.

SHohkd have clarified maybe.
I’ve been hearing “no doctor would prescribe this to a woman as first line treatment for Androgenetic Alopecia”.
I’ve been trying to convey for ages why this is seen as useful and why I am on it.

 

[Georgie]

I was actually thinking today about my shedding and the weird hair growth pattern I have since I started minoxidil. I remember when I first started losing hair, I didn’t notice a whole lot of shedding ever. Just that my hair was falling out, miniturising and not growing back in a rapid way. Then I got an anovulatory period in 2015 and my shedding was “bad” during that week every time it happened. “Bad” at the time was like 30 hairs in the shower, but when I started taking the pill or when I wasn’t bleeding it was more like 10 hairs in the shower. Then I started minoxidil and because I’d gotten hair extensions around the same time I dint notice how much hair I was losing, only that I was still losing it really fast. I didn’t count hairs at all until around November last year and realised that “good” was around 60 hairs in the shower, and “bad” was 100+.
I honestly feel like minoxidil has played some role in what’s happening. After all, it only grows my hair for 3 months every 12-14 months. It should either work or not work right? Problem is I can’t come off it.

 

[Georgie]

Just casually losing 109 hairs in the shower. f*****g awesome.

 

[Georgie]

@IdealForehead an interesting study I found about the role of dexamethasone in aromatase enzyme activity. There’s a lot of reading, but essentially is states that it significantly unregulated 17-b estrogen receptor, whilst it downregulates 17-a. Amongst all steroid hormones including estradiol, androgens, progesterones etc, it was the only factor to increase aromatase activity in the scalp. Interesting, because it’s the second main ingredient in ell-cranell/Pantostin/alfatradiol.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15330396

Interesting because my sister who has hashimotos went through this addisonian crisis 2 years ago and has had to take steroids ever since because she no longer produces any cortisol. Her hair has thickened up a fair bit.

 

[IdealForehead]

@IdealForehead an interesting study I found about the role of dexamethasone in aromatase enzyme activity. There’s a lot of reading, but essentially is states that it significantly unregulated 17-b estrogen receptor, whilst it downregulates 17-a. Amongst all steroid hormones including estradiol, androgens, progesterones etc, it was the only factor to increase aromatase activity in the scalp. Interesting, because it’s the second main ingredient in ell-cranell/Pantostin/alfatradiol.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15330396

Interesting because my sister who has hashimotos went through this addisonian crisis 2 years ago and has had to take steroids ever since because she no longer produces any cortisol. Her hair has thickened up a fair bit.

That is very interesting. I'm wondering if this ER-alpha/beta thing is a very important component to female hair loss that people have been missing up to now.

I'm gonna make a longer separate post about it later to collate all this info in one place. Maybe the girls on the hormone forums you're visiting will benefit from the knowledge too once that's done.

My sister has been losing her hair from PCOS mildly and my mom from menopause.

From what I understand long term steroids can atrophy the skin, so while that is an interesting connection to draw, I am not sure how helpful it is as long term solution. Better to manipulate the ER-alpha/beta balance by adjusting your hormone levels (since you need the hormones anyway) than using steroids which are not safe long term to tweak receptor expression.

 

[SteveTabernack]

Just casually losing 109 hairs in the shower. f*****g awesome.

Tell me about it. I'm easily losing 200 hairs a day, which is really quite inconceivable considering my temples have no hair to lose any longer and the rest of my head isn't exactly a forest of density. Every corner of my apartment has so much hair gathered on the floor it's ridiculous.