DHT and Testosterone kills hair DIRECTLY........study

[docj077]

bryan,

you keep asking us how much androgen little girls have have, but you never tell us. what makes you so sure they have zero? I'd like to know the average extrogen, DHT, and testosterone levels of men and women at verious ages, and at pregnancy, so we can note some trends.

Good heavens, I've never ever said that they have ZERO androgen; the obvious implication is that they have VERY LITTLE androgen, even less than boys of the same age. I like to point that out mainly for the benefit of kooks like Ernie, who are convinced that ALL hair (even scalp hair) requires androgens to grow. A somewhat less egregious kook like Armando needs to keep that in mind, too. God knows I have to remind of him of that often enough, like when he routinely states that sebum is necessary for hair growth.

Bryan

Women don't begin producing androgens until their ovaries start kicking out testosterone during puberty. Before that, they produce precursors for androgens from their adrenal cortex. DHEA and androstenedione are both produced. I'm unsure if either of those two molecules can bind the androgen receptor. I've read conflicting literature.

 

[CCS]

how much more estrogen do adult women have than men? Is it true that men tend to have more DHT as they get older, even as their testosterone levels decline?

 

[docj077]

how much more estrogen do adult women have than men? Is it true that men tend to have more DHT as they get older, even as their testosterone levels decline?

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

"About the same time a metabolite of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), was discovered. Levels of testosterone in young men are quite high, while levels of DHT are low. The enzyme responsible for the conversion of testosterone to DHT, 5-alpha reductase, becomes more active with age. Thus the levels of testosterone decrease while the levels of DHT increase."

I don't know how trustworthy that site is, but take from it what you will.

 

[michael barry]

Armando and everyone,

Look at this repair picture from hairsite: http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full . Its at the beginning of a thread. The guy whose head is butchered HAD HAIR when he got the plugs. He was just "buffing up" his hairline. Perhaps he was a non-responder to propecia or minoxidil, but the rest of his hair fell out around the plugs, thus his freakish-frankenstinian appearance. This illustrates that there is a difference in the susceptibility in the hair's and their ability to miniaturize OBVIOUSLY.

Now if I know Aramando, I expect some half-assed reply in undiscernable faulty English that allows him to skirt the issue. The plugs have been KEPT short, they have not miniaturized. They have sebaceous glands, and make sebum. Still havent miniaturized. They have been given the same "amount of attention" (WTF???!!!) as the hair in between them, yet they remain. Stephen Foote believes that they have a fibrose scaffold created around them thus protecting the dermal papilla from higher tissue fluid pressure (and probably helping drainage somewhat if the galea was punctured during the surgery). Armando has no explanation for this since the plugs make sebum just like the thinning hair does. They NEVER go away. Dr. Gary Hitzig's plugs from the late SEVENTIES are still up front on his head. Still big, and all there.

Copper peptides have nothing to do with sebum to any large extent, and they regrow some lost hair and help a man keep what he has, why Armando?


SOMETHING I'D LIKE TO GET OFF MY CHEST>>>>>>>>>>>>>IF anyone comes up with a @@@@WRONG@@@@ alternative baldness theory that tells men they dont have to treat it from an anti-androgenic standpoint (by telling them to just grow their hair long) they are COSTING YOUNG MEN their damned hair. It HURTS them, and wastes their f*****g time and hair when they could be doing something constructive about it. That is what pisses me off about left-field theories that are easily disproven.



Docj077,
There is a gal named Holly who posts over at Hairloss-reversible.com. Her doctor prescribed her some DHEA for whatever malady a while back. She started having bitemporal recession. It didnt stop after her getting off the DHEA supplements all at once either. She is trying to regrow bitemporal recession, and hasn't had much luck. Ive read "somewhere" that DHEA or DHEAS can be converted by sulfites into DHT. Ive also read it speculated "somewhere"---(I rarely write things down) that androstenidione can be oxidized into DHT. I dont know if either of these are true, but Holly (posts as bumblebee now) is a real woman who has lost hair after getting on DHEA>



By the way, Widows peak..................beta sitosterol is *thought* to somewhat inhibit androgens from binding to receptors. There is a patent taken out in Japan for its topical usage in male pattern baldness. Its the one common ingredient in saw palmetto, african pygeum, stinging nettles, and pumpkin seeds. It only occurs in high incidence in two natural compounds, corn oil (associated with cancer in lab rats used topically) and pine oil (tall oil)----which usually occurs as an industrial by-product. Its in avocado oil also, but not much. Its from 10-18% of pine oil. Im currently putting that on the back of one hand to see if it has an anti-androgenic effect and makes the body hair there sparser. Wont know anything until at least November. I'll report what success Ive had. We do know this however, for whatever reason, pine oil has been found in Iron and Bronze age Celtic mummies heads in Ireland. The article I read about that states they used it as a hair gel. From using it in my head a couple of times to see if it was a styling aid, I can tell you forcefully that isnt true and it does little or nothing in that regard. The Gauls that Julius Ceasar encountered in Europe used lime in their hair according to Ceasar's "The Conquest of Gaul" that I read a few years back.

 

[michael barry]

Armando and everyone,

Look at this repair picture from hairsite: http://www.hairsite4.com/dc/dcboard.php ... &mode=full . Its at the beginning of a thread. The guy whose head is butchered HAD HAIR when he got the plugs. He was just "buffing up" his hairline. Perhaps he was a non-responder to propecia or minoxidil, but the rest of his hair fell out around the plugs, thus his freakish-frankenstinian appearance. This illustrates that there is a difference in the susceptibility in the hair's and their ability to miniaturize OBVIOUSLY.

Now if I know Aramando, I expect some half-assed reply in undiscernable faulty English that allows him to skirt the issue. The plugs have been KEPT short, they have not miniaturized. They have sebaceous glands, and make sebum. Still havent miniaturized. They have been given the same "amount of attention" (WTF???!!!) as the hair in between them, yet they remain. Stephen Foote believes that they have a fibrose scaffold created around them thus protecting the dermal papilla from higher tissue fluid pressure (and probably helping drainage somewhat if the galea was punctured during the surgery). Armando has no explanation for this since the plugs make sebum just like the thinning hair does. They NEVER go away. Dr. Gary Hitzig's plugs from the late SEVENTIES are still up front on his head. Still big, and all there.

Copper peptides have nothing to do with sebum to any large extent, and they regrow some lost hair and help a man keep what he has, why Armando?


SOMETHING I'D LIKE TO GET OFF MY CHEST>>>>>>>>>>>>>IF anyone comes up with a @@@@WRONG@@@@ alternative baldness theory that tells men they dont have to treat it from an anti-androgenic standpoint (by telling them to just grow their hair long) they are COSTING YOUNG MEN their damned hair. It HURTS them, and wastes their f*****g time and hair when they could be doing something constructive about it. That is what pisses me off about left-field theories that are easily disproven.



Docj077,
There is a gal named Holly who posts over at Hairloss-reversible.com. Her doctor prescribed her some DHEA for whatever malady a while back. She started having bitemporal recession. It didnt stop after her getting off the DHEA supplements all at once either. She is trying to regrow bitemporal recession, and hasn't had much luck. Ive read "somewhere" that DHEA or DHEAS can be converted by sulfites into DHT. Ive also read it speculated "somewhere"---(I rarely write things down) that androstenidione can be oxidized into DHT. I dont know if either of these are true, but Holly (posts as bumblebee now) is a real woman who has lost hair after getting on DHEA>



By the way, Widows peak..................beta sitosterol is *thought* to somewhat inhibit androgens from binding to receptors. There is a patent taken out in Japan for its topical usage in male pattern baldness. Its the one common ingredient in saw palmetto, african pygeum, stinging nettles, and pumpkin seeds. It only occurs in high incidence in two natural compounds, corn oil (associated with cancer in lab rats used topically) and pine oil (tall oil)----which usually occurs as an industrial by-product. Its in avocado oil also, but not much. Its from 10-18% of pine oil. Im currently putting that on the back of one hand to see if it has an anti-androgenic effect and makes the body hair there sparser. Wont know anything until at least November. I'll report what success Ive had. We do know this however, for whatever reason, pine oil has been found in Iron and Bronze age Celtic mummies heads in Ireland. The article I read about that states they used it as a hair gel. From using it in my head a couple of times to see if it was a styling aid, I can tell you forcefully that isnt true and it does little or nothing in that regard. The Gauls that Julius Ceasar encountered in Europe used lime in their hair according to Ceasar's "The Conquest of Gaul" that I read a few years back.

 

[Bryan]

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

I don't know how trustworthy that site is, but take from it what you will.

Since they refer to chrysin as being a "natural aromatase inhibitor", it's obviously not completely trustworthy.

Bryan

 

[docj077]

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

I don't know how trustworthy that site is, but take from it what you will.

Since they refer to chrysin as being a "natural aromatase inhibitor", it's obviously not completely trustworthy.

Bryan

Yeah, I didn't believe it, either. I know testosterone falls during andropause in older males. I have no idea if that increases the conversion of DHT.

The only logical theory I have for explaining that is that the loss of stimulus from androgens in the various tissues might upregulate both the enzyme and the androgen receptor. I know that if you remove androgens from the prostate, the number of androgen receptors will increase.

That's just a guess.

 

[CCS]

DHT is not anabolic, but its very androgenic.

Also it acts as an AI, and can bind to SHBG.

so if I soak my dic in a DHT solution, would that possibly make it bigger?

 

[htownballa]

DHT is not anabolic, but its very androgenic.

Also it acts as an AI, and can bind to SHBG.

so if I soak my dic in a DHT solution, would that possibly make it bigger?

CCS you are getting weirder and weirder lol

 

[wookster]

Are there problems with this theory?

:? :? :?

http://www.dryskins.net/Moisturizers/ha ... malep.html

How Male Pattern Baldness Occurs

Dr. Engstrand explains that the tissue-thin membrane which is located on the crown area of the scalp in both men and women is soft and elastic during youth, and in women it remains so throughout life.

But with men, the male hormone which produces secondary sex characteristics, voice change, beard growth and body hair, causes the paper-thin membrane of the scalp to thicken.
This cuts off the blood supply to the tiny capillaries which are located above the tendinous membrane and which feed the hair follicles with nutrients essential for hair growth.

As the thickening process continues over the years, hair growth gradually diminishes until the starving hair follicles eventually atrophy, and the result is baldness.

The mechanisms with contact inhibition are not understood very well. Internet searches yield much hypothetical information.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 404101.php

Normal cells proliferate until they occupy the space allotted to them, and stop proliferating once they contact other cells or a dense extracellular environment. Overcoming this contact growth inhibition is an integral aspect of cancer induction. Dr. Herrlich and colleagues have found that merlin is a key component of the mechanism by which a cell responds to contact inhibition.

 

[docj077]

Merlin, is a tumor suppressor gene and defects in the gene cause neurofibromatosis type II

 

[JayBear]

I'm afraid i've become lost. Can someone bottom line the argument for me?

 

[docj077]

There really isn't an argument. There's two different theories being discussed. One addresses the molecular cause of hair loss while the other addresses the direct effects that the molecular effects seem to have in the form of venous stasis or lymphedema.

Honestly, they should both be combined into one theory.

 

[wookster]

http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic16.htm

Scalp hair grows at an average rate of 0.4 mm/day (approximately 0.5 in/month). At any particular time, not all human hair follicles in any given anatomical location are in identical growth stages; some are in the anagen, while others are in the telogen or catagen. This phenomenon is referred to as the mosaic pattern and is in contrast to some animals whose follicular units all are synchronized. This explains some animals' ability to shed winter coats when the ambient temperature becomes warm, while humans do not go bald during the follicular rest period.

Synchronized "regrowth" would be nice

Do mammals shed winter coats via some type of edema process?

 

[docj077]

I don't have time to look, but it wouldn't surprise me if hair cycling in animals that grow winter coats, is directly related to insulin and IGF-1 concentrations during specific times of the year.

 

[wookster]

I don't have time to look, but it wouldn't surprise me if hair cycling in animals that grow winter coats, is directly related to insulin and IGF-1 concentrations during specific times of the year.

:freaked: :freaked: :freaked:

Is IGF-1 associated with hair growth... or hair loss...?

http://dermatology.cdlib.org/DOJvol5num ... ws/su.html

In summary, regulation of human hair growth by androgen is probably mediated by IGF-1 in the dermal papilla. In male scalp, high levels of IGF-1 may increase the androgen receptor activity and dihydrotestosterone levels and these result in an increased propensity for baldness.

 

[Bryan]

Are there problems with this theory?

http://www.dryskins.net/Moisturizers/ha ... malep.html

Uh...YES, there are problems with that theory. BIG problems!! :wink: The "galea theory" of balding was discredited long ago. Didn't you know that?

I see that you joined this forum earlier this year, so you may not have seen the long thread I started more than a year ago on the seminal Nordstrom study from the 1970's, which finally dispensed not only with the old-fashioned galea theory, but also a certain NEW theory that's been floating around about "edema"! Here is a link to that thread. Happy reading:

http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hp?t=17571

Bryan

 

[HARM1]

Are there problems with this theory?

http://www.dryskins.net/Moisturizers/ha ... malep.html

Uh...YES, there are problems with that theory. BIG problems!! :wink: The "galea theory" of balding was discredited long ago. Didn't you know that?

I see that you joined this forum earlier this year, so you may not have seen the long thread I started more than a year ago on the seminal Nordstrom study from the 1970's, which finally dispensed not only with the old-fashioned galea theory, but also a certain NEW theory that's been floating around about "edema"! Here is a link to that thread. Happy reading:

http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hp?t=17571

Bryan

Hi,
Is it a known fact that even fallicles from donor area at somne point go bald?
You say it's due to something else, not male pattern baldness, and foote says it has evrething to do with male pattern baldness?

 

[Bryan]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "go bald". Aren't there transplants that have lasted for literally DECADES? There's such a thing as senescent thinning, too. Furthermore, not ALL hair follicles harvested from the occipital area are necessarily androgen-resistant. There's another study I've cited several times that showed that there's the occasional lone hair follicle from the back which was still sensitive to testosterone, so that might explain the failure of _some_ transplanted follicles to grow and thrive over a really extended period of time.

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Do mammals shed winter coats via some type of edema process?

If that were true, don't you think it would have been noticed long ago?