DHT

[Secrets]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

0.05 mg finasteride: 61,6% decline in scalp skin dht - 49,5% decline in serum dht.
0,2 mg finasteride : 56,5% decline in scalp skin dht - 68,6% decline in serum dht.
1 mg finasteride : 64,1% decline in scalp skin dht - 71,4% decline in serum dht.

I found it interesting that 0,05 mg finasteride reduced the scalp skin dht more than 0,2 mg finasteride did (61,6% vs 56,5%) , while reducing serum dht less ( 49,5% vs 68,6%).

Here, I read that serum dht only has a relatively little effect on hair follicles:
http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... =scalp+dht

Question 1: Isn’t it the reduction of serum dht that is responsible for the side effects of finasteride, and wouldn’t it then be nice if this reduction was small (as serum dht apparently has little effect on the hair follicles anyway)?

Here, I read that the dht levels in the follicles are more important than the ones in the scalp:
http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... =scalp+dht

Question 2: Is there a close relationship between the levels of follicular dht and scalp dht? For example – when there is a reduction in scalp dht, will the levels in the follicle be reduced similarly?

Question 3: If so, is it possible that 0,05 mg of finasteride may be just as effective as 0,2 mg (bigger reduction in scalp skin dht), while giving less sides? (less reduction in serum dht).

I don’t know much about these things, so it would be great to get some input.

 

[Lessofarockstar]

This might help you. Then again it might not cause it doesn't specifically answer your questions, but it is my thoughts on DHT levels. And maybe you'll find it interesting:

http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hp?t=25032

 

[Bryan]

I found it interesting that 0,05 mg finasteride reduced the scalp skin dht more than 0,2 mg finasteride did (61,6% vs 56,5%) , while reducing serum dht less ( 49,5% vs 68,6%).

That's almost certainly just a statistical fluke. Don't put too much stock in it.

Question 1: Isn’t it the reduction of serum dht that is responsible for the side effects of finasteride, and wouldn’t it then be nice if this reduction was small (as serum dht apparently has little effect on the hair follicles anyway)?

Uhhh...nobody knows for sure exactly how the side-effects work, but my general assumption would be that they are mainly a result of reducing DHT in the actual tissues involved by inhibiting the local action of 5a-reductase, just like it is with the DESIRABLE effects within hair follicle cells.

In other words, blood serum levels of DHT are just an indirect effect of locally produced DHT in various tissues around the body that leaks out into the bloodstream, and those serum levels probably have relatively smallish effects around the body (both the desired and undesired effects).

Question 2: Is there a close relationship between the levels of follicular dht and scalp dht? For example – when there is a reduction in scalp dht, will the levels in the follicle be reduced similarly?

I personally wouldn't necessarily say that there's a "close" relationship between the two, because it depends to a considerable extent on how you go about reducing the DHT. For example, think about what would happen if you started taking large amounts of Merck's experimental drug MK386 (a specific 5a-reductase type 1 inhibitor): it would probably significantly reduce total scalp DHT, because there's a lot of the type 1 enzyme in sebaceous glands; however, it probably wouldn't reduce the DHT in the hair follicle dermal papillae nearly as much, because papillae have mainly the type 2 form of the enzyme.

Question 3: If so, is it possible that 0,05 mg of finasteride may be just as effective as 0,2 mg (bigger reduction in scalp skin dht), while giving less sides? (less reduction in serum dht).

I strongly doubt it. The dose-response curve of finasteride is FAIRLY flat, but not TOTALLY flat. A dose of 0.2 mg would almost certainly work a little better than a dose of 0.05 mg.

Bryan

 

[Boru]

Great discussion.

 

[Lessofarockstar]

Great discussion.

Boru, how's that monster of a regimen working out for you?

 

[Boru]

My list looks monstrous but only takes 40 minutes a day. The new hair is progressing, though rather whispy, but better than the smooth bonce I had 2 years ago. I will try to post photos soon. Thanks. Boru

 

[Secrets]

Thank you very much for your feedback Bryan - you sure know a lot about these things!

There is another thing I was wondering about in the study.. It appears that the rise in scalp skin testosterone was bigger in the 0,2 mg dose?

http://www.physics.upenn.edu/facultyinf ... index.html

Could this also be a fluke?

Lessofarockstar - you have some very good points, and I am also considering a "micro dose" of finasteride. I got enlarged nipples after only two months on 1 mg (had to stop taking it), so I am very cautious now - it is powerful stuff. But what dosage to choose, that is a tricky question...

 

[Lessofarockstar]

Thank you very much for your feedback Bryan - you sure know a lot about these things!

There is another thing I was wondering about in the study.. It appears that the rise in scalp skin testosterone was bigger in the 0,2 mg dose?

http://www.physics.upenn.edu/facultyinf ... index.html

Could this also be a fluke?

Lessofarockstar - you have some very good points, and I am also considering a "micro dose" of finasteride. I got enlarged nipples after only two months on 1 mg (had to stop taking it), so I am very cautious now - it is powerful stuff. But what dosage to choose, that is a tricky question...

Dude... I get sides from just 0.25. The thing I have learned about microdosing finasteride is that sides come with effectiveness. If the dose effectively lowers your dht levels you risk the sides. That might not happen to you though because I am still convinced that 1 mg is more than most people need and that might be the cause of many sides.

So if you are having trouble on 1 mg you could try lowering your dose. It's such a b**ch having to quit the best treatment option available. So I hope you find a lower dose that suits you.

 

[Secrets]

Sad to hear about the sides on 0,25 mg - how long have you been taking it? Gyno is serious stuff (my nipples are still enlarged, 6 months after I quit), and it surely is a big difference in how people tolerate this drug. Funny how some can take 5 mg (or more) and be fine, while others get serious sides even on micro doses.

I tried 0,25 mg for 14 days a couple of months ago, and by the second week, I felt a change in the libido, and also got some funny feelings in the chest (very slight). That may of course have been my imagination (or paranioa), but it was enough to make me stop.

0,05 did lower scalp and serum dht in the study - how much is a bit uncertain (as Bryan said, there might be a fluke in the statistics there - the rise in scalp skin testosterone on 0,2 mg is also a bit funny), but I think it is interesting that such a small amount of the drug can do that much! It seems that the dht levels are reduced to castrate levels somewhere between 0,05 and 0,2 mg.

Perhaps some people respond well to very small doses, and get sides when they go above that level? Let's say that 0,1 mg is enough to do the job in one person (lower the dht levels to castrate levels), then maybe taking 0,25 mg is "overkill" and causing sides? I don't know...

 

[Bryan]

It seems that the dht levels are reduced to castrate levels somewhere between 0,05 and 0,2 mg.

Where did you hear that?

Bryan

 

[Secrets]

I can't remember now (been reading too much on too many forums lately) - but I may have got mixed it up (still a newbie), so take it with a big grain of salt!

 

[Bryan]

The reason I asked is that I have a study around here which measured both testosterone and DHT levels before and after castration. Serum DHT levels were reduced by an average of around 70%, which is just about what you get with a full dose of finasteride (Propecia or Proscar). Now, as I'm fond of pointing out, the dose-response curve of finasteride is relatively flat, but it's not PERFECTLY flat. My guess is that those smaller "micro-doses" are pretty unlikely to make it to the 70% reduction level, but they might get kinda close (I'll have to leave it up to each individual to decide for himself what "kinda close" really means in this context), depending on random and unpredictable personal variations in response to the drug.

Bryan

 

[Secrets]

It’s sad that there are so few studies on lower doses of finasteride...

I was thinking about trying 0,25 mg finasteride, but the more I look into it, the more it looks like the side-effects are nearly the same as on 1 mg, and I am sure this has to do with what Bryan pointed out; the dose-response curve of finasteride is relatively flat. That is bad news for those that get serious sides on 1mg (like gyno).

But what about a 0,05 mg dose of finasteride as a “boosterâ€￾ in a topical regimen?
The 61,6% decline in scalp skin dht was probably just a fluke (as Bryan pointed out – it seems to be way too high), but maybe the decline in serum dht is more accurate? (0,02 mg = 49,5 % vs 1 mg = 71,4 %). That is a big difference, and I think I read somewhere that that both serum and scalp levels of dht were reduced quite similarly. Anyway, 0,05 mg would probably not do much (if anything) on it’s own.

But for those that are on a topical regimen (for example Revivogen and spironolactone), and have tried 1 mg finasteride and got sides (or don’t want to take the risk), maybe this 0,05 mg dose could help?
If 0,05 mg reduces the dht levels about 50%, then that is a lot less for the topicals to fight, and at the same time I think the chance of side effects would be greatly reduced compared to on 1 mg. It should not raise the Testosterone and Estrogen levels as much either.

Just thinking out loud here (Bryan has to correct me!).