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barnabas said:
yeah basically.
Diffuse balding is not male pattern baldness
- Thread starter returnoftheshedi
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yeah basically.
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Apoc said:
no, it's some separate thing that deserves its own forum for diffusers to discuss our serious non-male pattern baldness condition.
you better produce studies proving that diffuse is male pattern baldness or else you're nothing but a lying shill for these drug companies.
returnoftheshedi
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barnabas said:
yea, how crazy of me to suggest a seperate forum for diffuse thinners. i must be nuts to think that 6 + years of browsing hairloss forums plus judging my own situation would be enough to draw a reasonable doubt as to the effectiveness of the big 3 on diffuse thinners. right? its soo outrageous to think that people who lose their hair in a completely different way than those with male pattern baldness might respond differently to treatments.
some of you dudes are so eager to belive that these treatments will halt your hairloss that you put blinders on to all the missing pieces. remember, we know dht is a cause, but its not the only cause. if all these forums do is reaffirm what propecia and rogaine put on the outside of their boxes, well, they really aren't doing sh*t.
if diffuse thinners dont want to talk about what we have in common. oh well. i'm older than most of you and already married. im sure most of you other dudes would benefit from these discussions more than me.
Old Baldy
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Is this your conditiion?
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt ... 86cdf5a0e7
At that same site do a search on "Dr P diffuse loss". Good luck!
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt ... 86cdf5a0e7
At that same site do a search on "Dr P diffuse loss". Good luck!
returnoftheshedi
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Old Baldy said:
no.
Johnny24601
Experienced Member
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re:
Diffuse thinning is simply a more aggressive form of male pattern baldness. Even diffuse thinners tend to follow the norwood scale as you always see the crown balding and the scalp receeding and meeting in the middle. The process is just faster then a receeder. Just as a receeder, the hair follicles are shrinking and eventually are totally destroyed. In diffuse most of the follicles on the top of the head are being attacked not just the hair follicles on the crown and front of the scalp. It is this reason why treatment is less effective for diffuse thinners. Look at it this way, if you had cancer in you lungs it would be far more treatable then if you had cancer all over your body. IMO diffuse thinners should be more realistic and hope that treatments slow down their hairloss and not stop it.
As I stated, most receeders begin to lose hair all over their scalp as they age and thus in time they can be labelled as diffuse thinners. Some men go right into diffuse as this "trigger" can happen at any time and at various degrees.
male pattern baldness is widely researched. When you say "cure" I kind of laugh because this is not a medical condition but a natural biological function that effects your look only. It is only our society that makes us feel like we have a disease that needs to be "cured".
You are not getting the results you want and are coming up with theories that cannot be reasonably accepted without proper research.
Diffuse thinning is simply a more aggressive form of male pattern baldness. Even diffuse thinners tend to follow the norwood scale as you always see the crown balding and the scalp receeding and meeting in the middle. The process is just faster then a receeder. Just as a receeder, the hair follicles are shrinking and eventually are totally destroyed. In diffuse most of the follicles on the top of the head are being attacked not just the hair follicles on the crown and front of the scalp. It is this reason why treatment is less effective for diffuse thinners. Look at it this way, if you had cancer in you lungs it would be far more treatable then if you had cancer all over your body. IMO diffuse thinners should be more realistic and hope that treatments slow down their hairloss and not stop it.
As I stated, most receeders begin to lose hair all over their scalp as they age and thus in time they can be labelled as diffuse thinners. Some men go right into diffuse as this "trigger" can happen at any time and at various degrees.
male pattern baldness is widely researched. When you say "cure" I kind of laugh because this is not a medical condition but a natural biological function that effects your look only. It is only our society that makes us feel like we have a disease that needs to be "cured".
You are not getting the results you want and are coming up with theories that cannot be reasonably accepted without proper research.
returnoftheshedi
Established Member
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Re: re:
no its not. in fact, it is the opposite. male pattern baldness can move a hairline back rather quickly. in those situations, the affected area is basically slick bald. with diffuse thinning, you can go years and years without even noticeing a visible change in the thickness of your hair. i have been a diffuse thinner for 7 years (come december) and if you saw me on the street you would not think that i am balding (buzz cut disguises it).
this thread was a bad idea. i am not a regular poster on this site but thought it was a good idea to suggest a seperate forum for diffuse thinners. if others disagree i'll go back to not posting. its not productive to debate this.
Johnny24601 said:
no its not. in fact, it is the opposite. male pattern baldness can move a hairline back rather quickly. in those situations, the affected area is basically slick bald. with diffuse thinning, you can go years and years without even noticeing a visible change in the thickness of your hair. i have been a diffuse thinner for 7 years (come december) and if you saw me on the street you would not think that i am balding (buzz cut disguises it).
this thread was a bad idea. i am not a regular poster on this site but thought it was a good idea to suggest a seperate forum for diffuse thinners. if others disagree i'll go back to not posting. its not productive to debate this.
H/B
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returnoftheshedi said:
what are you talking about? I just told you i am a diffuse thinner and have responded to finasteride.
There are just as many receding nonresponders on these forums. one could just as easily draw the conclusion that receders don't respond as well as diffusers.
unfortunately, there are some who can't stop what nature had intended with what is currently available. not specific to diffuse
Re: re:
I agree - this is the most conservative of all hair loss forums and any attempt to digress from the zombie mantra of Big Three, male pattern baldness, Norwood is met with outright hostility/abuse.
It's why I don't post much, and I certainly wouldn't advance any theories even tho' I understand quite a bit of the science now.
returnoftheshedi said:
I agree - this is the most conservative of all hair loss forums and any attempt to digress from the zombie mantra of Big Three, male pattern baldness, Norwood is met with outright hostility/abuse.
It's why I don't post much, and I certainly wouldn't advance any theories even tho' I understand quite a bit of the science now.
Old Baldy
Senior Member
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Well I tried to help Return. Maybe you can post some research studies, explanations of diffuse thinning, etc., and, with that info., you might spark a discussion.
Do you think your type of balding is triggered by something other than a "bad" reaction to DHT?
If it is triggered by DHT, then it's not hard to see why so many of the members have a difficult time thinking there is a substantive difference from "normal" male pattern baldness. Thus the reason for identical treatment protocols.
Rather than calling members stupid and closed minded, why not research and educate? :wink:
Do you think your type of balding is triggered by something other than a "bad" reaction to DHT?
If it is triggered by DHT, then it's not hard to see why so many of the members have a difficult time thinking there is a substantive difference from "normal" male pattern baldness. Thus the reason for identical treatment protocols.
Rather than calling members stupid and closed minded, why not research and educate? :wink:
Nathaniel
Experienced Member
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H/B said:
Bingo. Everyone is different, check out hawaii male. He looks like a diffuse thinner to me and has responded great to treatment.
http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... c&start=70
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great example nathaniel.
Johnny24601
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re:
The actions on the hair follicle are exactly the same for both diffuse thinners and receeders. There are men who bald in many many different patterns and at different rates. Some men may lose hair for some time and then the hairloss just stops. Some have a fast progressing recession and thining all over, others have little or no receeding but thinning all over. I would estimate that different treatments COULD be more effective on different balding patterns but I would also say that any man who is interested in slowing or stopping his hairloss should start with an alpha blocker and add other treatments if they desire. If you had stated that people will diffuse thinning could benefit from different treatments then receeders then we could have a useful forum, but instead you say that diffuse is not male pattern baldness and you are wrong. PLease research this further if you do not belive me.
If a person is not happy with their results on alpha blockers alone, then add in other treatments one by one and evaluate the progress by taking photos. The reason why anyone should start with an alpha blocker is because no matter what their hairloss pattern is, they have to combat the body's natural trigger to attack the follicle which is totally similar no matter what the balding process is (accept Telogen Effluvium of course).
I am diffuse and feel like I have responded well. What is totally irresponsible is to make medical and scientific conclusions based on your own experience and though you do not mean harm it is not beneficial to a discussion. This is a common mistake for people on this board, they make conclusions on one dam case study (their own) and that is totally useless. Medical research is clear and proven to be effective, you must have long term multiple case studies and any other conclusions or opinions are useless and just fodder.
For me, I used finasteride and rogain and decided to stop rogain and since stopping rogain the look and feel of my hair has improved. Does this mean rogain doesn't work just because it did not work for me?
The actions on the hair follicle are exactly the same for both diffuse thinners and receeders. There are men who bald in many many different patterns and at different rates. Some men may lose hair for some time and then the hairloss just stops. Some have a fast progressing recession and thining all over, others have little or no receeding but thinning all over. I would estimate that different treatments COULD be more effective on different balding patterns but I would also say that any man who is interested in slowing or stopping his hairloss should start with an alpha blocker and add other treatments if they desire. If you had stated that people will diffuse thinning could benefit from different treatments then receeders then we could have a useful forum, but instead you say that diffuse is not male pattern baldness and you are wrong. PLease research this further if you do not belive me.
If a person is not happy with their results on alpha blockers alone, then add in other treatments one by one and evaluate the progress by taking photos. The reason why anyone should start with an alpha blocker is because no matter what their hairloss pattern is, they have to combat the body's natural trigger to attack the follicle which is totally similar no matter what the balding process is (accept Telogen Effluvium of course).
I am diffuse and feel like I have responded well. What is totally irresponsible is to make medical and scientific conclusions based on your own experience and though you do not mean harm it is not beneficial to a discussion. This is a common mistake for people on this board, they make conclusions on one dam case study (their own) and that is totally useless. Medical research is clear and proven to be effective, you must have long term multiple case studies and any other conclusions or opinions are useless and just fodder.
For me, I used finasteride and rogain and decided to stop rogain and since stopping rogain the look and feel of my hair has improved. Does this mean rogain doesn't work just because it did not work for me?
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great post johnny. hopefully he'll stop now.
bubka
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jesus this is all nuts... i mean how many guys do you see who are losing their hair look exactly the same... you see some who just have receading all the way back to where some start losing the crown... you have some who just lose at the crown, and most have both...
than you have the guys like you said, have diffuse all over...
it's the same freaking thing, we are all a little different, our androgen receptors are different, we have so much genetic differences that cause male pattern baldness to look different, but its still male pattern baldness... enough said already
/edit, looks like i said what Johnny24601 already said... same here, rogain did me no good (not that i gave it much of a shot)
than you have the guys like you said, have diffuse all over...
it's the same freaking thing, we are all a little different, our androgen receptors are different, we have so much genetic differences that cause male pattern baldness to look different, but its still male pattern baldness... enough said already
/edit, looks like i said what Johnny24601 already said... same here, rogain did me no good (not that i gave it much of a shot)
return,
I think you make some very valid points. I agree that there are no experts on hairloss, so we have to question everything and accept that we often don't know the answer.
I am also a diffuse thinner. I'm 29 and I have noticed my hair thinning for the past 5 years. I tried Propecia but stopped due to sexual side effects. Then I used Revivogen for about 3 years, and I honestly noticed no difference in hairloss or hair growth. So I stopped that and have been using nothing for the past two years.
I buzz my head down to a #2, and I have accepted that I will never have the long, thick hair I once had. But soon enough, I'll have to buzz it to a #1 or 0. It may not seem like a lot, but there's a big difference between a few millimeters of hair on your head versus completely bald.
So what is the solution? I've pretty much given up on drugs and I'm just letting nature take its course. I'm not married yet, and I hope I can retain a little bit of hair for at least a few more years. But I'll have to wait and see.
return, if you want to talk further feel free to pm me.
I think you make some very valid points. I agree that there are no experts on hairloss, so we have to question everything and accept that we often don't know the answer.
I am also a diffuse thinner. I'm 29 and I have noticed my hair thinning for the past 5 years. I tried Propecia but stopped due to sexual side effects. Then I used Revivogen for about 3 years, and I honestly noticed no difference in hairloss or hair growth. So I stopped that and have been using nothing for the past two years.
I buzz my head down to a #2, and I have accepted that I will never have the long, thick hair I once had. But soon enough, I'll have to buzz it to a #1 or 0. It may not seem like a lot, but there's a big difference between a few millimeters of hair on your head versus completely bald.
So what is the solution? I've pretty much given up on drugs and I'm just letting nature take its course. I'm not married yet, and I hope I can retain a little bit of hair for at least a few more years. But I'll have to wait and see.
return, if you want to talk further feel free to pm me.
Old Baldy
Senior Member
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Daedalus:
I'm not getting this.
I always thought diffuse thinning was all over the head and was due to alopecia areata or other types of ailments SEPARATE from pattern loss?
Are you guys saying diffuse thinning, in this discussion, is an overall thinning of the male pattern baldness horseshoe area rather than a specific recession of the crown and/or hairline?
If so, how is this any different than "normal" pattern loss? I mean, it is the horseshoe area that is being "hit"?
Are you guys saying diffuse thinning is a more agressive form of hair loss than recession loss? If so, where are you getting this info.? I've never heard of this.
Like I said, I'm confused!! I'm having a VERY hard time understanding this diffuse thinning theory. (I'm getting old you know.) :?
I'm not getting this.
I always thought diffuse thinning was all over the head and was due to alopecia areata or other types of ailments SEPARATE from pattern loss?
Are you guys saying diffuse thinning, in this discussion, is an overall thinning of the male pattern baldness horseshoe area rather than a specific recession of the crown and/or hairline?
If so, how is this any different than "normal" pattern loss? I mean, it is the horseshoe area that is being "hit"?
Are you guys saying diffuse thinning is a more agressive form of hair loss than recession loss? If so, where are you getting this info.? I've never heard of this.
Like I said, I'm confused!! I'm having a VERY hard time understanding this diffuse thinning theory. (I'm getting old you know.) :?
returnoftheshedi
Established Member
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for the last time - female pattern loss is not male pattern baldness. the way we lose our hair and the rate at which we lose our hair is completely different. again, a diffuse thinner will notice fallout years before showing any visible loss. we are the people on this forum who complain of massive daily shedding but have pics with full heads of thick hair. however, over a gradual period of time our hair gets thinner and thinner. years go by and eventually our hair is too thin to style. does this sound like your typical case of male pattern baldness??? of course not.
we also know that diffuse thinners are in the minority. take a look at the boards and at the world population and you will see many bald people with norwood type loss, and far fewer with diffuse thinning and a perfect hairline. therefore, my initial point was: based on diffuse thinners being in the extreme minority, what evidence do we have that propecia and rogaine were tested effectively on diffuse balders??? NONE!!!!!
nobody has refuted this point. so please go back to labeling me as ignorant and patting yourselves on the back for regurgitating the same info that has been on these boards for close to a decade. you guys are really helping the cause, let me tell you.
we also know that diffuse thinners are in the minority. take a look at the boards and at the world population and you will see many bald people with norwood type loss, and far fewer with diffuse thinning and a perfect hairline. therefore, my initial point was: based on diffuse thinners being in the extreme minority, what evidence do we have that propecia and rogaine were tested effectively on diffuse balders??? NONE!!!!!
nobody has refuted this point. so please go back to labeling me as ignorant and patting yourselves on the back for regurgitating the same info that has been on these boards for close to a decade. you guys are really helping the cause, let me tell you.
returnoftheshedi
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JayMan said:
i'm done. please feel free to go back to your 15 page thread of 150 different pics of your hair. nice little hobby you got there. maybe you can squeeze some time in your day to gettting a life.