Diffusing/Thinning, body hair, and DHT

[Schitz Popinov]

wow! congratulations!!

Thanks. It's a great start and I think if I hadn't gotten more proactive it was about to get a whole lot worse. Curious to see where I'm at 4-6 months from now.

 

[Schitz Popinov]

OK so I finally got some panels done last Thursday ...... the results have come back. Anyone care to help me interpret?

I suspect the only reason my testosterone is barely within range is because I work out. I can't imagine what it would look like otherwise.

Cortisol 21.5 (range 2.4-19.4)
DHEA-S 253.1 (range 138-475)
DHT 28 (range 30-85)
Estradiol 10.2 (range 7.6-42.6)
PSA 0.5 (range 0.0-4.0)
Progesterone 0.5 (range 0.2-1.4)
TSH 2.29 (range 0.47-4.68)
Free T3 6.67 (range 2.77-5.27)
Free T4 1.0 (range 0.8-2.2)
TPOab 8 (range 0-34)
Testosterone Free 12.5 (range 8.7-25.1)
Testosterone Total 342 (range 71-813)

 

[hare]

OK so I finally got some panels done last Thursday ...... the results have come back. Anyone care to help me interpret?

I suspect the only reason my testosterone is barely within range is because I work out. I can't imagine what it would look like otherwise.

Cortisol 21.5 (range 2.4-19.4)
DHEA-S 253.1 (range 138-475)
DHT 28 (range 30-85)
Estradiol 10.2 (range 7.6-42.6)
PSA 0.5 (range 0.0-4.0)
Progesterone 0.5 (range 0.2-1.4)
TSH 2.29 (range 0.47-4.68)
Free T3 6.67 (range 2.77-5.27)
Free T4 1.0 (range 0.8-2.2)
TPOab 8 (range 0-34)
Testosterone Free 12.5 (range 8.7-25.1)
Testosterone Total 342 (range 71-813)

I suspect that if you're in range, that's good. Where do you get blood tests done?

 

[Schitz Popinov]

I suspect that if you're in range, that's good. Where do you get blood tests done?

In range doesn't mean anything. When you consider the fact that I'm 34 years old I should be around the 500-600 level at least. Again, the only reason I'm barely within the low end of the range is because I work out.

 

[resu]

Have you checked with your GP? Your thyroid may be need to checked by a person who actually knows medicine rather than strangers online.

 

[Schitz Popinov]

Have you checked with your GP? Your thyroid may be need to checked by a person who actually knows medicine rather than strangers online.

Have not gone to a GP in about 4 years. I got tired of negligence after seeing about 8-9 of them between 2007-2009. They were always trying to prescribe depression/anxiety meds within the first 15mins of seeing me.

 

[hare]

In range doesn't mean anything. When you consider the fact that I'm 34 years old I should be around the 500-600 level at least. Again, the only reason I'm barely within the low end of the range is because I work out.

Hm, I did a quick Google search and it seems you may be onto something. According to this article, the blood test ranges could simply be "reference ranges" accounting for a wide variety of the lab's patients, in which case they're not as helpful as they could be (although not completely arbitrary). That same article also shows results from studies displaying reference ranges by age, which indeed suggests that something closer to 600 is probably normal.

I saw the regime you posted and there doesn't seem to be anything there that should affect your hormone levels significantly (btw, any reason you're not trying finasteride?), but if you continue with the research and/or speak with professionals (even if some of them seem negligent), hopefully there will be some answers.

Have not gone to a GP in about 4 years. I got tired of negligence after seeing about 8-9 of them between 2007-2009. They were always trying to prescribe depression/anxiety meds within the first 15mins of seeing me.

I don't know under what context you went to your GPs, but yeah, some docs seem quick to apply inaccurate diagnoses/regimes. Btw, do you live in the UK, and if so, how did you get blood tests if you didn't go to your GP? The hair clinics I went to don't offer it and some blood test site I found online looks very expensive and shifty. I want to get blood tests myself before potentially starting on treatments.

 

[macamaca]

I've recently had my testosterone levels tested. I'm 21 years old and was on the lower end of the scale... My dad even had higher levels than me!! I'm going to get my DHT levels tested soon, I believe there is a strong correlation between the two.

 

[Schitz Popinov]

Hm, I did a quick Google search and it seems you may be onto something. According to this article, the blood test ranges could simply be "reference ranges" accounting for a wide variety of the lab's patients, in which case they're not as helpful as they could be (although not completely arbitrary). That same article also shows results from studies displaying reference ranges by age, which indeed suggests that something closer to 600 is probably normal.

I saw the regime you posted and there doesn't seem to be anything there that should affect your hormone levels significantly (btw, any reason you're not trying finasteride?), but if you continue with the research and/or speak with professionals (even if some of them seem negligent), hopefully there will be some answers.

Well unfortunately the symptoms have resurfaced. I recently started trying out this liver detox tea and I swear, I've been itching like crazy, especially on my scalp .... not mention I'm getting acne on the back of my head (hasn't happened in a while). My hair is extremely limp and thinning again. My skin is ridiculously dry.

I don't know under what context you went to your GPs, but yeah, some docs seem quick to apply inaccurate diagnoses/regimes. Btw, do you live in the UK, and if so, how did you get blood tests if you didn't go to your GP? The hair clinics I went to don't offer it and some blood test site I found online looks very expensive and shifty. I want to get blood tests myself before potentially starting on treatments.

My cousin is a phlebotomist and has his own lab. I went and got my panels done there because he only charged me cost. Basically I paid $100 for what should've cost almost $400.

At any rate, I really wish I knew what was going on. I mean even my DHT is below range and yet I'm thinning again like crazy.

 

[hare]

Well I also managed to get blood tests done. My testosterone levels seem close to or lower than yours. e.g. 12.3 nmol/L for serum (total) testosterone, which was in range but called a "borderline" result and to thereby refer to the free testosterone level, which was 0.218 nmol/L, on the lower end of the range but called "normal" suggesting "normal androgen status". The lab only tested DHT if something was abnormal.

According to Wikipedia:
Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher 5-alpha-reductase, lower total testosterone, higher unbound/free testosterone and higher free androgens, including DHT.

So that could explain the lower total testosterone for both of us. However, in my case the low free testosterone seems atypical whereas in your case the DHT levels should apparently be higher. Weird, huh? Now I'm wondering what the implications are for medication.

 

[Schitz Popinov]

Well I also managed to get blood tests done. My testosterone levels seem close to or lower than yours. e.g. 12.3 nmol/L for serum (total) testosterone, which was in range but called a "borderline" result and to thereby refer to the free testosterone level, which was 0.218 nmol/L, on the lower end of the range but called "normal" suggesting "normal androgen status". The lab only tested DHT if something was abnormal.

According to Wikipedia:
Men with androgenic alopecia typically have higher 5-alpha-reductase, lower total testosterone, higher unbound/free testosterone and higher free androgens, including DHT.

So that could explain the lower total testosterone for both of us. However, in my case the low free testosterone seems atypical whereas in your case the DHT levels should apparently be higher. Weird, huh? Now I'm wondering what the implications are for medication.

The biggest surprise for me was the DHT being below the range. I figured it would be high and some kind of conversion problem going on. Instead it looks as if it's a production issue.

On a side note, I had my house checked for airborne mold spores. About a month ago there was mold forming behind the toilet in a spare bathroom that is never used. I had a leak repaired about 8 months ago that was from my shower and another appears to have been going on a while. I'm wondering if mold could be contributing to pre-existing health issues. I swear, when the diffused thinning first started it came out of nowhere and was really aggressive.

 

[liquidfirex]

Have you ever had your Growth Hormone checked (you do this by measuring igf-1 because GH is pulsatile)?

Your experiences closely match my own. However I went on TRT because my testosterone was very low and it didn't help at all. What's weird is that I'm losing hair at all with very low testosterone.
But I'm currently looking into either insulin insensitivity (experimenting with injecting igf-1 lr3), or GH deficiency.
We know igf-1 is important for hair (propecia when it works for people up regulates it at the follicle), and it's derived from GH.
We also know niacin increases GH because it lowers blood lipids/cholesterol.

My theory in diffuse thinners is that there is more cholesterol in the blood (both testosterone and GH lower this), and that the cholesterol is able to bind to the follicles and convert to testosterone or DHT locally (see: http://www.klinikum-dessau.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Hautklinik/PDF-Files/157_androgens.pdf).

 

[liquidfirex]

Anecdotal experience ins't proof of anything.
We know body hair is regulated by DHT, and scalp hair is down regulated by DHT.

Could someone have very high DHT and no hairloss? Sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't a connection.

 

[Agahi]

Are you on any treatments?

 

[aj218]

I do believe that hairloss is associated with an increase in body hair, but only if both sites have an increased sensitivity to DHT. The issue is that there are dudes who have no body hair but end up getting bald and dudes who are basically gorillas with thick heads of hair. It all depends on the sensitivity in both sites.

Mind you, I've seen that hairless dudes who do end up going bald usually have worse hairloss than hairier dudes, like the hairless dudes I've seen even have thin donor areas.

 

[abcdefg]

There is a correlation. Just because a guy out there has no sensitivity to androgens so he is very hairy yet not bald does not show there is not. In general, most very hairy men have faster and worse male pattern baldness in comparison to say men with no or very little body/facial hair. I think there is a pretty strong correlation both are caused by androgens. Most teenage men that no body hair facial hair yet dont have any baldness at all. It all makes good sense when you think about it. As you age your hormones change, and maybe sensitivity but its poorly understood. Its sensitivity though too not just absolute androgen levels, and I think taking propecia or lowering DHT could allow T to also cause slower miniaturization to continue since its also an androgen.
I think men that dutasteride doesnt stop male pattern baldness is because T or sensitivity is the reason for that. Maybe CB can help answer some of these questions if they look at receptors more closely.

 

[Schitz Popinov]

I figured I would kick-start this thread again. Have sought no medical treatments since the date of my last post. Mostly just been lurking in hair loss forums then attempting to distract myself from the sadness this hair loss thing is causing me. The diffused thinning and receeding continue to get worse.

I've been taking inventory of not just the state of my hair, but of my body as a whole.

My body is definitely in a catabolic state.

It's like a vicious cycle because I don't sleep well, work is stressing me out, and the state of my hair is depressing me. Even my workouts are not stress relieving anymore - my body is not healing the way it should from them. I tried upping my regimen to 4-5 days again (from 3) and noticed immediately that I saw more muscle wasting than gains.

I also feel tense all the time, almost like it's a chore for my body to relax. Energy levels poor. My patience has become paper thin and I find myself snapping a lot easier.

I need to get my sinuses checked out.

I've had some ongoing issue for some time now that I've never gotten checked out. They are always getting blocked and dried out to where I wake up with dried mucous plugging my nasal passages. During the day I can often feel the nasal lining burning and getting irritated. I noticed that the front part of my nose swells up at different times and my face looks bloated. I swear sometimes I feel like I'm looking in the mirror at another person.

Somethings wrong, I just don't know what. I've long suspected it developed after a nasty oral infection back in the mid 2000's near a wisdom tooth.

Summary

I need to get scheduled for a checkup. Haven't had hormone panels run since the ones I posted in here a few years ago.

- I'm finally going to order a dermaroller to give needling a shot. Need to decide if I'm going with the 1mm or 1.5mm. Have been compiling a list of topicals from countless nights of research that I'm going to add in afterward.
- I've been trying get better at scalp massaging, but haven't been faithful to it.
- Currently mixing a batch of castor and lavender oil on my head before I go to sleep at night
- Recently purchased some Ashwaganda to try to see if that helps me wind down and reduce cortisol.
- Started laser hair removal for the hair on my back. I'm at a point where I'm tired from all the man-scaping and I just can't do it anymore. Have spent way too much of my adult life grooming body hair.

 

[clowns on stilts]

Pleased to hear that you are finally going to resolve your man-scaping dilemma. Aesthetically I don't mind a hairy chest and legs myself but the back and shoulders I only bother with if I believe a sexual encounter may develop.

Anyway, interested about the niacin etc - do you still use, if so how much? Do you still occassionlly flush, if so, how many mcgs and at what frequency?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Schitz Popinov]

Pleased to hear that you are finally going to resolve your man-scaping dilemma. Aesthetically I don't mind a hairy chest and legs myself but the back and shoulders I only bother with if I believe a sexual encounter may develop.

I honestly should have started back in December. I came into some new money then and was supposed to start the treatments immediately since it could take up to 6 sessions total. It'll will be one less thing for me to feel insecure about in life.

Anyway, interested about the niacin etc - do you still use, if so how much? Do you still occassionlly flush, if so, how many mcgs and at what frequency?

Thanks in advance.

I've been on and off with it.

When I take it, it's 500mg during 2-3 times a week. Some people hate the flush, but I love the feeling. However, I started doing more reading on it and I'm not clear on whether or not it promotes PGD2 - which is essentially what we don't want happening.

About a month or two ago I began rubbing peppermint oil into my scalp when I would take the Niacin. I swear I could feel my scalp like never before. Problem is my receding and diffused thinning was getting worse up front. Mind you I'm very stressed out and it might not have had anything to do with Niacin/Peppermint. But I got spooked so I haven't used either in a few weeks.