Diminishing Effect of finasteride/minoxidil

Roy7

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Okay, now I dont know if this is true, but a professor had mentioned it in passin in that finasteride works initially but after the span of 10 years it's effectiveness drops.

Now I'm just wondering if anyone has any evidence of this, and if this also occurs with minoxidil.

If so, damn, I'm using one at a time until it stops working.

Thanks again.
 

Brokenwall

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Yes thats true someone mentioned it here once, and after that 10 years your hair will be back to how to was before propecia and minoxidil and baldness will resume destruction of hair follicles again.
 

michael barry

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Finasteride inhibits chemically the type 2 alpha five reductase enzymes that convert Testosterone into DHT. It inhibits the enzymes at about a 90% clip. There are two types of enzymes that primarily make DHT: type 1 alpha five reductase and type 2 alpha five reductase.


The type two alpha five reductase enzyme is located in the innermost portion of the outer root sheath OF YOUR HAIR FOLLICLES. They are also in your prostate. Most all of the DHT that damages your hair is actually converted to DHT right there at the follicle, falls down just a tad to the androgen receptors on the cytoplasm cellular walls of the dermal papilla and bind the the androgen receptors that are there.



The doctor or professor who told you that about finasteride doesnt know jack fuucking shiit. Finasteride simply does not stop ALL DHT from being made, therefore you have some that binds STILL, and you go bald, just a HELL OF ALOT slower than what you would have without it. It NEVER stops inhibiting type 2. It decreases blood serum levels of DHT by about 65-70% on average. Merk has tested a type 1 alpha five reductase inhibitor, some MK386, but found it had a much smaller effect upon hair. The reason Avodart is probably more beneficial for hair in baldness than finasteride is that it stops 98%, almost all, of the type 2-created DHT (in the outer rootsheath) from being made.


Hair counts on propecia go up for about 2 years, and then SLOWLY decline thereafter,but VERY VERY SLOWLY. You get back to baseline in "around" years 12-14, still losing hair, but much more slowly.


You can add nizoral shampoo about every third day (ketoconazale stays in the scalp at theraputic concentration for 72 hours) to your regimine along with finasteride. Leave it in for about 2 minutes. A study on ketoconazale and its anti-androgenic effect is available here at GourmetStyleWellness in the resource library. The study was done with human beings, not mice. Their hair got thicker, sebaceous glands smaller, sebum secretions smaller. Added to finasteride, Nizoral should help bolster the effect for many more years.


If you can just hang onto your hair for another ten years or so, something better will assuredly be available by then


Minoxidil has a hypertrichotic effect on hair by numerous pathways. It opens potassium channels, is a weak prostaglandin analogue, inhibits TGF-beta 1 weakly, is a vasolidator, ups VEGF, inhibits the hardenting of the collageneous fibers in the connective tissue sheath one sees with baldness, inhibits the collagen forming in the "abnormal collagenous streamsers" underneath the follicle that we see in the histopathology of Androgenetic Alopecia.


The "big 3" is touted on this website for a reason. That reason is, they work. If you were to add anything to "the big 3", at this moment, I'd suggest tricomin, which has at least been through 2 FDA phase trials with similar effectiveness as minoxidil before Graftcyte, the parent company, pulled the drug from the very expensive phase three.


Other cheapie things that might help are drinking plenty of green tea (alpha five type one inhibitor in the form of one of the catechin's therein), taking grape seed extract (PKC inhibitor), and taking curcumin (tgf-beta inhibitor, tnf-alpha inhibitor,) and getting some silica in your diet (oatmeal, onions..........IL-1 inhibitor).


Thats about it at the moment. Until cloning, this is about all we have thats really proven other than topical spironolactone (messy, smelly, best to apply twice a day, and revivogen.............messy, greasy, smelly).
 

Roy7

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So aggresive, geez,
That make sense, so guess I'll stick w/the minoxidil, finasteride, and nizoral.

Thanks. But, if anyone else has any info, I'm def open to hearing it.
 
G

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michael, you recommend using nizoral for 2 minutes instead of the 5 that's typically recommended on here. any reason why?

also, you say that the average finasteride user hits baseline during years 12-14 on finasteride. what would you estimate as length it would take the average dutasteride user to hit baseline, assuming they're taking 0.5 mg per day? i would estimate it at 18-20 years on dutasteride before hitting baseline but I am curious to hear what you think. If my estimate is correct then I can expect to have roughly the same hair now until I am 40(since I am 22 now and on dutasteride)?

thanks.
 

michael barry

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Jayman wrote:

" michael, you recommend using nizoral for 2 minutes instead of the 5 that's typically recommended on here. any reason why?

also, you say that the average finasteride user hits baseline during years 12-14 on finasteride. what would you estimate as length it would take the average dutasteride user to hit baseline, assuming they're taking 0.5 mg per day? i would estimate it at 18-20 years on dutasteride before hitting baseline but I am curious to hear what you think. If my estimate is correct then I can expect to have roughly the same hair now until I am 40(since I am 22 now and on dutasteride)? "


Dr. Proctor says to leave NANO in for "one to two" minutes. On the nizoral bottle, it says to "shampoo, rinse, repeat". Im "guessing" that just leaving it in for a couple of minutes will get ketoconazale in theraputic concentration in the scalp enought. 5 minutes would assuredly get it there.

By the way Jayman, you can buy Nizoral 2% at nizoralshampoo.com now.


You mentioned how long would it take for a dutasteride user to "hit baseline"..............man if you use nizoral and dutasteride.....................I'd be suprised if you hit baseline in 30 years. Cloning will be available before you start losing hair. Jayman, you will never be bald or even balding barring a nuclear war where we all go back to hunting and gathering. Ive said it before and I'll say it again: all you young fellas have no idea how lucky you are to have the internet to research this. Its the best time in history to be losing hair.


For the other poster.................I shouldn't be so aggressive. However I remember just 10 years ago when minoxi was hailed as a fluke and doctors routinely told people "there is nothing that can be or ever will be able to be done about baldness because its genetic". Ive been told that. This "finasteride only works for a while" or "you develop a tolerance" crap is the newest incanation of that. Sometimes I have a sneaky suscpicion that old, bald doctors just resent the pee out of the fact that younger man can hold onto their hair for many many years now. Finasteride plus nizoral probably is about as good as dutasteride is by itself. Dutasteride plus nizoral is probably damn near castratory effective on the scalp.
 
G

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sweet sh*t mike thanks. and i have the nano as well and i'm adding rogaine foam this summer so i should be good for awhile.

i gotta tell you that im giving rogaine a year and if i'm still not satisfied then i may get 1500 grafts or so FUE'd onto my front to give me back a good hairline. this seems pretty safe if i'm on dutasteride and nizoral at the same time right? then i might never need cloning.

Also, one more question i thought of: you mentioned the nizoral 2% being sold, but wasn't 1% found to be as effective as 2%? why not just buy the 1% at the supermarket like i do?

jayman
 

Pondle

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michael barry said:
Hair counts on propecia go up for about 2 years, and then SLOWLY decline thereafter,but VERY VERY SLOWLY. You get back to baseline in "around" years 12-14, still losing hair, but much more slowly.

Michael, do you base this on extrapolation from the rate of loss shown by the treatment group in the 5-yr study? Or anecdotal evidence?
 

michael barry

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Dr. Michael Beehner, a hair transplant doctor, attended a conference where Ken Washenik, head cloning scientist at Aderans, and dermatological researcher formerly of NYU or Columbia (forget which) said those were the results with finasteride after that period of time. One gets back to baseline at year(s) 12-14 with finas ALONE. However, if one adds spironolactone or nizoral (or both) into their regimine, obviously this degree of androgenic blockade to the hair follicle will make this effect quite a bit longer.

Go to propecia.com and look at the five year graph, you can see the decline after year two also...............its pretty easy to extrapolate that Washenik was right (and he had data not availed to us by Merk for obvious reasons).
 
G

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michael, so if you say that dutas and nizoral combined might keep someone above baseline for 30 years, then adding minoxidil into it would probably stretch that number out into 40 years above baseline at least, right? someone on dutas, nizoral and minoxidil would probably be elderly before going below baseline. call it the great 3 rather than the big 3.

then they could just get a 2-3000 graft FUE transplant if they wanted without worrying about depleting their donor

it does still suck to not have a full head of hair but i totally agree with you that guys like me are fortunate to be balding now and not 30 years ago.

lastly, michael, what do you think about the worries of some on here that even after eliminating 98.5% of type II DHT with dutas, that all the testosterone left behind that wasn't converted to DHT will just continue to attack the follicles and they'll kind of mitigate the success that people would have had?
 

Pondle

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JayMan said:
lastly, michael, what do you think about the worries of some on here that even after eliminating 98.5% of type II DHT with dutas, that all the testosterone left behind that wasn't converted to DHT will just continue to attack the follicles and they'll kind of mitigate the success that people would have had?

I don't understand why, if testosterone 'attacks' follicles directly, then how do individuals who are deficient in 5AR not experience male pattern baldness? After all, they don't have DHT but they still have testosterone.
 
G

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Pondle said:
JayMan said:
lastly, michael, what do you think about the worries of some on here that even after eliminating 98.5% of type II DHT with dutas, that all the testosterone left behind that wasn't converted to DHT will just continue to attack the follicles and they'll kind of mitigate the success that people would have had?

I don't understand why, if testosterone 'attacks' follicles directly, then how do individuals who are deficient in 5AR not experience male pattern baldness? After all, they don't have DHT but they still have testosterone.

good question. i guess the explanation some would give is that once DHT kicks off the process, other androgens like testosterone will take the place of DHT and do its job even after its eliminated? the process has already started for all of us so maybe that is why even eliminating 99% of DHT will not stop the process?

interested to hear what michael thinks on that point as well. but my explanation is the best i can give at least.
 

Bryan

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Pondle said:
I don't understand why, if testosterone 'attacks' follicles directly, then how do individuals who are deficient in 5AR not experience male pattern baldness? After all, they don't have DHT but they still have testosterone.

Well, it's obviously a matter of degree. And aside from the fact that DHT is much more potent than testosterone, you need to keep in mind the all-important TIMING issue: the pseudohermaphrodites are that way from birth to death. They didn't start out with normal levels of DHT, and then have it reduced later in life (like what happens with finasteride and dutasteride users). The fact that you catch it before balding gets a chance to get started is a very critical factor, in my opinion, and shouldn't be underestimated.

Bryan
 

bubka

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i think there are many people who will continue to keep the hair the regrew with finasteride or dutasteride throughout their lives if they continue usage, plus after older age too, dht and t levels drop naturally
 

Old Baldy

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bubka said:
i think there are many people who will continue to keep the hair the regrew with finasteride or dutasteride throughout their lives if they continue usage, plus after older age too, dht and t levels drop naturally

Not so sure about DHT dropping, on average, in older men?

Here's a very good article, well I thought it was, talking about androgens in men as they get older.

http://edrv.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/26/6/833
 

Bryan

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Hey, that's an excellent study, OB! Thanks for the link! I was especially interested in this statement:

"The clinical significance of plasma DHT is very limited because most DHT formed in peripheral tissue acts locally (12), only a limited fraction escaping to the circulation where DHT is strongly bound to SHBG, only 0.8% being free."

That's another argument against any strong effect of serum DHT which I hadn't even really considered before: the few DHT molecules which do diffuse out of the cell into the general circulation then get strongly bound to SHBG, further limiting any endocrine effect of that hormone. Cool!

Bryan
 

Pondle

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Bryan said:
you need to keep in mind the all-important TIMING issue: the pseudohermaphrodites are that way from birth to death. They didn't start out with normal levels of DHT, and then have it reduced later in life (like what happens with finasteride and dutasteride users). The fact that you catch it before balding gets a chance to get started is a very critical factor, in my opinion, and shouldn't be underestimated

So are you saying that exposure to DHT after puberty "sensitises" the follicles to later damage from testosterone, when local DHT has been virtually eliminated by finasteride or dutasteride?
 

Bryan

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Pondle said:
So are you saying that exposure to DHT after puberty "sensitises" the follicles to later damage from testosterone, when local DHT has been virtually eliminated by finasteride or dutasteride?

Something like that, yes. And that androgens may start processes in motion which, after a period of time, may no longer be completely dependent on androgens.

Bryan
 
G

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Bryan said:
Pondle said:
So are you saying that exposure to DHT after puberty "sensitises" the follicles to later damage from testosterone, when local DHT has been virtually eliminated by finasteride or dutasteride?

Something like that, yes. And that androgens may start processes in motion which, after a period of time, may no longer be completely dependent on androgens.

Bryan

PKC down reg, TNF-Alpha, TGF-beta?

0.5 mg dutasteride per day for 5ar inhibition.
630 mg curcumin a day for TGF-beta and TNF-alpha
some amount of green tea extract a day for TNF-a as well.
Vitamin E for PKC

Drinking some green tea

minoxidil for the reasons ive mentioned before. it works in many ways.

nizoral to reduce size of sebaceous glands and keep scalp clean and reduce sebum.

pretty comprehensive, right?
 
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