Enden why are you still using Finasteride?

[DIYtony]

I'm really trying to do research on whether to take finasteride, I am thinking of ordering 1mg and cutting that into 4 pieces so 0.25mg a day, mentally I hope that will remove some fear.

But I've noticed that you post a lot here, and post good information, but you are STILL using finasteride? Surely being still on this drug, posting about the sides, and treating yourself, is ridiculous?

 

[Ende]

I've been off finasteride since the beginning of january this year. Why is it ridiculous? If you develop persistent side effects from finasteride, it doesn't really matter whether you're using the drug or not. I've gone further than anyone else. I've studied the side effects for more than a year, and I've shared my experience - so other people may benefit as well.

I'm only treating myself, because I didn't get any professional help after developing secondary hypogonadism from 4 months use of Propecia.

 

[DIYtony]

So Because surely if you developed the side effects from finasteride, then there is no way in hell you are ever going to get better while still being on it no matter what you try? What has happened since you stopped?

 

[Ende]

The side effects are manageable with AI's and DHT (derivatives). Since I stopped... Symptoms of hyperthyroidism got worse, and I was down in a hole for a while after using Arimidex (I needed to adjust some ratios). Everything was starting to pick up in the beginning of march, and then I did a little mistake which set me back, but I think I'm close to recovering now. I've changed from testosterone enanthate to Sustanon 250, and I'm currently overdosing - to increase the aromatase activity. My estrogen level is too low at the moment.

 

[DIYtony]

So you have got better since you stopped the drug? Have you ever just tried stopping propecia and all the treatment for sides to see what happens?

I am reading your posts as they contain a lot of info and obviously well researched. But then I found out that you were still on finasteride all this time....

 

[Ende]

So you have got better since you stopped the drug? Have you ever just tried stopping propecia and all the treatment for sides to see what happens?

Hormones have been fluctuating. At the beginning of march, my libido increased, and morning erections came back at the end of the week - before my next Telogen Effluvium shot. I was recovering slowly, by 1 day a week. When I did the mistake by using hGH (which I now know that works as an aromatase inhibitor as well), it set me back. I had a couple of good days at the beginning of this week too, but I wanted to do some adjustments, which set me back again; hence; I think I'm close to recovering.

Of course... I was off Propecia 6 months after using the drug for 4 months. I didn't recover. I was stuck with a very low testosterone level, high estrogen level and I wasn't functioning sexually. I tried Cialis a couple of months later. 20 mg didn't even make my dick wiggle. I now know that you're supposed to recover from Propecia's side effects within a couple of weeks.

 

[DIYtony]

Dude seriously, I know it must be hard (its hard enough for me atm in just early stages of hairloss) and I don't doubt that finasteride has fucked some people up for lengthy amounts of time, but the fact I found out you were on finasteride most of the time I've been reading your posts changes everything.

If you have actually shown improvement after being off finasteride, doesn't that say something in your mind? Have you seriously just tried to do nothing for 4 months and see what happens? You are f*****g with your body so much.

Have you thought about it? Just go to stronglifts.com and do the program there. Seriously, you wanna feel how much heavy squats or deadlifts (done properly) increase your sex drive (I used to be a high performance athlete), I felt like I could wank 20 times a day every day when my coach first got me lifting heavy in big compounds, to be honest, it probably did contribute a little to my hairloss.

I'm not sure how much this hormone release from exercise will compare to what you are doing, but I dont know why you dont do this and run 30mins a day at 160bpm+ heart rate, 1min running hard, 30seconds rest 20 times.

I mean just try it, but if I put myself in your situation, I realise that mentally it must be almost impossible to convince yourself to do this.

 

[DIYtony]

So you have got better since you stopped the drug? Have you ever just tried stopping propecia and all the treatment for sides to see what happens?

Hormones have been fluctuating. At the beginning of march, my libido increased, and morning erections came back at the end of the week - before my next Telogen Effluvium shot. I was recovering slowly, by 1 day a week. When I did the mistake by using hGH (which I now know that works as an aromatase inhibitor as well), it set me back. I had a couple of good days at the beginning of this week too, but I wanted to do some adjustments, which set me back again; hence; I think I'm close to recovering.

Of course... I was off Propecia 6 months after using the drug for 4 months. I didn't recover. I was stuck with a very low testosterone level, high estrogen level and I wasn't functioning sexually. I tried Cialis a couple of months later. 20 mg didn't even make my dick wiggle. I now know that you're supposed to recover from Propecia's side effects within a couple of weeks.

I didn't see your edit here, where did you find out that you are supposed to recover within a few weeks? Is it to do with the halflife?

 

[Ende]

Ask some of the other guys. Ask Propecia, monty or Mens Rea. Mens Rea hasn't been using anything, but he's fucked up anyway. Don't suggest that persistent side effects from Propecia are a psychological issue. That makes me very angry. It's fine that you want to use Propecia, but don't try to comfort yourself by ignoring the truth. It's a dangerous drug.

I show improvement, because I'm medicating myself, just like I was able to manage and reverse most of the side effects from finasteride, in fact, all besides the sexual function, which was very hard to stabilize. Some guys at propeciahelp haven't been functioning for several years, some of them as long as 10 years, and most of them used the drug for some months only.

 

[Ende]

Merck states that all the subjects hormone values returned to baseline within 2 weeks after quitting finasteride.

 

[Mens Rea]

Tony, Enden is right. My condition worsened over the past year (been off finasteride a year now) despite me doing all the "right" things. It left my estrogen levels high and my body messed up.

I'll not get into it but basically finasteride can leave your body in a negative feedback loop that can screw the whole thing up. It can also caused adrenal fatigue and thyroid problems all of which are highly complicated matters.

I personally would never go back on finasteride for love nor money but i dont think it's changed Enden's situation so far as i can tell.

 

[DIYtony]

Yes, I think it is physical, and I can see how that negative feedback loop can be logical conclusion for it, but I think mental issues can perhaps come into it afterwards, I mean I know it would for me.

What I am wondering is whether trying to combat the situation with yet more artificial drugs is the answer. If you look at bodybuilding forums (the ones that use drugs), you see posters doing cycles of 3 months on finasteride to combat another steroid they are taking etc, they come off and on it like its nothing.

It sounds stupid, but I wonder what the lifestyle of PFS sufferers is. I am leaning towards it being fairly sedentary like most western adults today. I wonder if these people took up a proper weight lifting and diet (I mean serious heavy squats that stress the CNS massively), which I know from experience has a massive effect on your 'androgenic' activities - whether it would help balance this out doing it all artificially.

 

[Ende]

It will accelerate the recovery process, but I suggest you do some research on secondary hypogonadism. When you're low on testosterone (and DHT!), you don't have nearly as much strength and endurance as a normal man, and if estrogen is way out of control; you can exercise and be as healthy as you wish, but it won't solve your problem. There isn't possible to recover from finasteride without drug support - when it has gone too far, and no one has the recipe yet. It's the ugly truth.

AI's are our most important tool, and you get a lot of other problems as well, when you suppress the estrogen level for an extended period of time, which is necessary to shift ratios properly. Your muscle strength goes way down, you get lethargic, joints are aching - to name a few. It's a difficult situation.

 

[Broken]

Ask some of the other guys. Ask Propecia, monty or Mens Rea. Mens Rea hasn't been using anything, but he's f***ed up anyway. Don't suggest that persistent side effects from Propecia are a psychological issue. That makes me very angry. It's fine that you want to use Propecia, but don't try to comfort yourself by ignoring the truth. It's a dangerous drug.

I show improvement, because I'm medicating myself, just like I was able to manage and reverse most of the side effects from finasteride, in fact, all besides the sexual function, which was very hard to stabilize. Some guys at propeciahelp haven't been functioning for several years, some of them as long as 10 years, and most of them used the drug for some months only.

Everyone should just take this post, frame it & hang it on your wall.

Finasteride is a dangerous drug. A major percentage of people who think they do not have any side effects from finasteride are probably in delusion like I was. No morning wood is a side effect, if you need to reassure yourself that you are sexually alright, there is a 100% chance that you're not. I am off Finasteride for more than a month now (and I was on 0.25mg EOD for two weeks before that, 0.25mg daily for 3-4 weeks before that & 0.5 mg daily for 2-3 months before that) and I thank my gods that I am finally off that poison. It feels SO f*****g good to have my penis recover to the beast it was before. Get off that poison guys. I would never recommend this sh*t to even an enemy.

@Enden..Its been a month and I have recovered (touchwood!)- morning wood, stronger erections, back to normal size & girth , that means I don't have anything to worry now, do I?

 

[TheGrayMan2001]

Merck states that all the subjects hormone values returned to baseline within 2 weeks after quitting finasteride.

That's what happened to me when I quit for two months. Within two weeks I was 100% normal. I think there is a small enough population out there that get some bad side effects. However, 1700 users on Propecia help after quite a few years and only a few posters here with "Propecia Syndrome" tells me it's quite likely that no one in their clinical trials got these side effects. It's very rare.

 

[Wuffer]

Exactly right Grayman; on my guestimates, I would say the chance of experiencing post-finasteride problems is maybe 1 in 1000, conservatively. I believe somewhere around 10,000 patients have been involved in 2+ year studies of finasteride (this is not including the placebo bracket). It's very possible that 10 or so with persistency in sides were missed, or their problems were written off as unrelated.

The way I came to that figure is I would say there are 2,000,000 people worldwide on finasteride. Merck's numbers are lower than this, but that doesn't account for the significant number on generics or hitting up the online market. Also, yes there are over 1,800 users on propeciahelp. However, after reading through many posts, it's clear that not everybody that registers is legitimately experiencing PFS. There are many users posting because they are scared after just coming off finasteride, and looking for advice. Also (I know I will be burned for saying this) I believe a large number of people on that forum are experiencing problems from either psychological or unrelated medical problems. It simply can't be possible that ALL people that register on that forum are legitimate PFS sufferers. That would be shortsighted. However, there would also be a large number of people who have PFS problems not yet registered on that forum, so I came at a number of somewhere around 2000 legitimate PFS cases. Feel free to critique my reasoning here, and I’m clearly not basing this on any real math.

None of us have any clear data on the frequency of this occurring, but based on a 0.1% chance of having permanent sides, there is a risk involved. However, it's also pretty clear that most people experiencing permanent sides will experience some significant problems while on the drug, persisting afterwards. So it's really best to come right off finasteride when you start having sexual sides, since that seems to be the big risk factor.

I’ve been on finasteride for 3 months. I've noticed a decrease in morning and spontaneous erections, though they still do occur. However, I have no problem getting it up during sex, and things in that department are better than ever. I don’t think the frequency and quality of a morning erection is cause for concern unless you are having difficulties in the field. I also have the normal male fantasies and dreams, and no other negative effects that I can surmise.

 

[Mens Rea]

^ There's a huge data deficiency, that is for sure.

Remember that many, many men wont even join PH. Many will have their sexual sides put down to "aging" or "mental issues" and may never make the connection. Many just don't use the internet. Many don't even speak English!! The numbers are all wrong. I reckon atleats 50% of men are suspective t some sides (as minor as ball ache) with some dose of finasteride but only about 10% will have problems that cause them real issue. Only 5% will actually have reason enough to quit and only 1% of those (roughly, may be less) will have persistent side effects.

PFS is clearly very real because i have the f*****g misfortune to report it.

As for the poster above talking about lifestyles - i am young and other 110% healthy, perfect weight, decent lifestyle, never had any prior problems and have never taken any other drugs. Most of the main posters on PH are similar. It's only natural to start questioning things like that, all im telling you is that you're wrong. Take that for what it's worth.

 

[Wuffer]

Thanks for your input, I simply posted these numbers as my personal interpretation, but it's very clear that nobody has a real clear picture of how frequently this occurs. We can guess all day, but I don't think anyone has any idea how many people worldwide are actually currently on Finasteride (I have heard anywhere between 600,000 and 5,000,000 people)..

I would like to hear others opinions on these numbers as well. You also raised an interesting point; is Propecia being sold in large populations such as Japan, India or China? If so, have there been similar reports or propeciahelp-like sites in their languages?

I understand that the folks at propeciahelp are pushing a number of studies that will help quantify the occurances of these cases. It will be interesting to see some actual statistics.. Possibly they will discover some sort of genetic defect that is causing these problems, and already know the occurance of this defect in the general population. Who knows..

 

[Ende]

@Enden..Its been a month and I have recovered (touchwood!)- morning wood, stronger erections, back to normal size & girth , that means I don't have anything to worry now, do I?

That's good. I think you're safe.

 

[Ende]

If our condition is so rare; why is Merck afraid to recommend a blood test before doctors prescribe Propecia? They should be doing that, just to show they've nothing to hide - but they do. When you hear about young guys who get screwed by the drug; Merck is always excusing themselves with the clinical results, and just say that their symptoms could be caused by anything. That's that.

I tell you, if a blood test was mandatory, we would have a lot of evidence within 6 months, and the result would be so disturbing that the drug would be pulled off the market immediately. Merck knows this, but luckily for them, the f*****g FDA won't take any responsibility.