Estradiol for hair growth without feminization

[JaneyElizabeth]

How much more efficacious do you think estrogel is compared to biestro @JaneyElizabeth ? IIRC estrogel has twice the estradiol but what other differences are there?

I believe that it is likely to have better absorption. OTC estrogen has often been indicated for vaginal use and I think that they probably put this aspect as primary in terms of not changing the environment or flora. Estrogel is indicated for use other than the vagina and breasts so it is based more so on skin absorption via the underarms or wrists. I do believe that topical estrogen can have substantial effects on hair and skin beyond those of just the increase in serum estratradiol but we have few tests, if any.

Both, if used on genital skin are likely to go much, much farther in terms of having to use much less of the medication which can result in substantial savings. But given the possibility of topical improvement, I recommend use on the scalp for men and on the breasts, buttocks, thighs, neck, face and scalp for MtF's along with on genital skin/scrotal tissue. Probably a balance of both is best.

However, I know where the meat of the question goes. So, say minoxidil appears to work topically in its non-oral form without increasing hair in other places for most people. Some do experience hypertrichosis but largely minoxidil is seen as having localized effects and some meds work like this. Estrogen appears to have both localized and systemic effects and so the goal is to, for guys, to get the localized effects without the systemic ones. I go back and forth as to whether this is possible and it is the crux of the matter. So assuming most meds go at least a little bit systemic, what's the likelihood of estrogen's benefits on the scalp being curtailed to that area. It might be possible but it appears to be a delicate tightrope between getting no results and getting full-blown feminization. The truth is that we just like knowledge about the many permutations of how HRT works in terms of cycling/taking breaks and how long things can be maintained without the med. Dutasteride is especially important in this scenario.

So, I hope that many folks will find that the localized benefits are worth it and curtailed to that area but my guy feeling is that oral minoxidil is the better choice for those who want to remain "all male".

 

[Norwoody]

I believe that it is likely to have better absorption. OTC estrogen has often been indicated for vaginal use and I think that they probably put this aspect as primary in terms of not changing the environment or flora. Estrogel is indicated for use other than the vagina and breasts so it is based more so on skin absorption via the underarms or wrists. I do believe that topical estrogen can have substantial effects on hair and skin beyond those of just the increase in serum estratradiol but we have few tests, if any.

Both, if used on genital skin are likely to go much, much farther in terms of having to use much less of the medication which can result in substantial savings. But given the possibility of topical improvement, I recommend use on the scalp for men and on the breasts, buttocks, thighs, neck, face and scalp for MtF's along with on genital skin/scrotal tissue. Probably a balance of both is best.

However, I know where the meat of the question goes. So, say minoxidil appears to work topically in its non-oral form without increasing hair in other places for most people. Some do experience hypertrichosis but largely minoxidil is seen as having localized effects and some meds work like this. Estrogen appears to have both localized and systemic effects and so the goal is to, for guys, to get the localized effects without the systemic ones. I go back and forth as to whether this is possible and it is the crux of the matter. So assuming most meds go at least a little bit systemic, what's the likelihood of estrogen's benefits on the scalp being curtailed to that area. It might be possible but it appears to be a delicate tightrope between getting no results and getting full-blown feminization. The truth is that we just like knowledge about the many permutations of how HRT works in terms of cycling/taking breaks and how long things can be maintained without the med. Dutasteride is especially important in this scenario.

So, I hope that many folks will find that the localized benefits are worth it and curtailed to that area but my guy feeling is that oral minoxidil is the better choice for those who want to remain "all male".

Thank you for the thorough response as always. I'll consider estrogel maybe later this year.

 

[Norwoody]

Your point about dutasteride being pretty necessary makes a lot of sense even in a cis context, because I can imagine some guy trying to use topical minoxidil/estrogen and having it backfire. If you're not on a 5ARI or another powerful MtF AA, and if you are just doing exogenous topical estrogen, I could see it exacerbating an increase in DHT while decreasing endogenous aromatization.

 

[JaneyElizabeth]

Your point about dutasteride being pretty necessary makes a lot of sense even in a cis context, because I can imagine some guy trying to use topical minoxidil/estrogen and having it backfire. If you're not on a 5ARI or another powerful MtF AA, and if you are just doing exogenous topical estrogen, I could see it exacerbating an increase in DHT while decreasing endogenous aromatization.

Yes and I am agnostic about AR down and up regulation but it might mean that only re-setting the axis is likely to be fully restorative in terms of eliminating those sorts of inter-conflicts between estrogen and androgen metabolites where they might be liable to level the see-saw either way.

I continue to question how reductase inhibitors could be destructive to mood or libido or cause "permanent brain damage" given that MtF's don't allege these effects from AA's or estrogen and very few allege RI's sides but some do come into HRT already being unable to use RI's due to sides as a male. To my knowledge, no MtF's allege permanent side-effects from using RI's in the past. I find that my mind is super-charged compared to when I was only "male". Perhaps it's the progesterone/provera but of the AA's these two are often reported to have positive effects on sleep, mood and the opposite of the "brain fog" alleged against spironolactone/finasteride/duta.

 

[mj9]

Your point about dutasteride being pretty necessary makes a lot of sense even in a cis context, because I can imagine some guy trying to use topical minoxidil/estrogen and having it backfire. If you're not on a 5ARI or another powerful MtF AA, and if you are just doing exogenous topical estrogen, I could see it exacerbating an increase in DHT while decreasing endogenous aromatization.

I take finasteride and apply topical finasteride. I will be doing the same with dutasteride but I'm not sure if it really helped in the past. Your comment about exacerbating an increase in DHT is worrying; I'm applying estriol and I've noticed much harder erections recently and possibly a shed. I was not expecting this side at all (I'm not disappointed) but I don't want to f*** up the little hair that I have due to an increase in DHT.

I've not noticed any gyno or other feminising side effects since starting estriol and I've just upped it to 20mg x2 daily.

 

[mj9]

I believe that it is likely to have better absorption. OTC estrogen has often been indicated for vaginal use and I think that they probably put this aspect as primary in terms of not changing the environment or flora. Estrogel is indicated for use other than the vagina and breasts so it is based more so on skin absorption via the underarms or wrists. I do believe that topical estrogen can have substantial effects on hair and skin beyond those of just the increase in serum estratradiol but we have few tests, if any.

Both, if used on genital skin are likely to go much, much farther in terms of having to use much less of the medication which can result in substantial savings. But given the possibility of topical improvement, I recommend use on the scalp for men and on the breasts, buttocks, thighs, neck, face and scalp for MtF's along with on genital skin/scrotal tissue. Probably a balance of both is best.

However, I know where the meat of the question goes. So, say minoxidil appears to work topically in its non-oral form without increasing hair in other places for most people. Some do experience hypertrichosis but largely minoxidil is seen as having localized effects and some meds work like this. Estrogen appears to have both localized and systemic effects and so the goal is to, for guys, to get the localized effects without the systemic ones. I go back and forth as to whether this is possible and it is the crux of the matter. So assuming most meds go at least a little bit systemic, what's the likelihood of estrogen's benefits on the scalp being curtailed to that area. It might be possible but it appears to be a delicate tightrope between getting no results and getting full-blown feminization. The truth is that we just like knowledge about the many permutations of how HRT works in terms of cycling/taking breaks and how long things can be maintained without the med. Dutasteride is especially important in this scenario.

So, I hope that many folks will find that the localized benefits are worth it and curtailed to that area but my guy feeling is that oral minoxidil is the better choice for those who want to remain "all male".

Topical minoxidil stopped working for me years ago (I've been on it for over 10 years). I recently started oral minoxidil and I feel it is doing something but too early to confirm.

 

[Norwoody]

I take finasteride and apply topical finasteride. I will be doing the same with dutasteride but I'm not sure if it really helped in the past. Your comment about exacerbating an increase in DHT is worrying; I'm applying estriol and I've noticed much harder erections recently and possibly a shed. I was not expecting this side at all (I'm not disappointed) but I don't want to f*** up the little hair that I have due to an increase in DHT.

I've not noticed any gyno or other feminising side effects since starting estriol and I've just upped it to 20mg x2 daily.

Topical finasteride should give enough local and systemic inhibition of 5AR for most people, but maybe you need to step up to dutasteride. But it might also be reflex hyperandrogenicity. I don't think estriol, even in fairly high dosages, is strong enough to cause any up/down regulation.

 

[trialAcc]

Topical finasteride should give enough local and systemic inhibition of 5AR for most people, but maybe you need to step up to dutasteride. But it might also be reflex hyperandrogenicity. I don't think estriol, even in fairly high dosages, is strong enough to cause any up/down regulation.

Have you actually experienced RHA yourself?

 

[Norwoody]

Have you actually experienced RHA yourself?

Yep I stopped finasteride because of it. I actually GAINED body hair and facial hair. For most people, when it works they lose some.

 

[trialAcc]

Yep I stopped finasteride because of it. I actually GAINED body hair and facial hair. For most people, when it works they lose some.

Doesn't an increase in T also do that though?

 

[Norwoody]

Doesn't an increase in T also do that though?

Exactly

 

[trialAcc]

Exactly

An increase in T isn't RHA?

 

[Norwoody]

An increase in T isn't RHA?

It isn't?

 

[trialAcc]

It isn't?

Im guessing you're messing with me?

 

[Norwoody]

Im guessing you're messing with me?

No, no I'm not. I'm confused.

 

[Norwoody]

I thought RHA was an increase in androgens?

 

[trialAcc]

No, no I'm not. I'm confused.

T going up is a normal reaction to starting finasteride/dutasteride.

 

[Norwoody]

Are you asking if the typical backflow increase of T from finasteride, which is typically 15%, could increase body hair? I don't think so. Part of the equation is that estrogen increases by about the same amount too.

 

[trialAcc]

I thought RHA was an increase in androgens?

No, it's an increase in your androgen receptors sensitivity to them

 

[Norwoody]

T going up is a normal reaction to starting finasteride/dutasteride.

I took it for 2 years