I agree with everything you said. I think it is really is individually dependent, and a prerequisite being a low norwood to start. For example, ElDuterino has been maintaining on CB but he never went much past NW2 to begin with. But if you're NW4+ then yes, you're going to need some sort of 5AR inhibition to maintain for the long haul. The reason that finasteride is still the main solution for most people is that we don't have a topical AA that can effectively compete with DHT.
EVERYONE Will Get Finasteride Side-Effects Eventually
- Thread starter hemingway_the_mercenary
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Agreed.
The worst cases to deal with are edge cases. You have some guys that are 21-22 who are NW2. In some cases, they hop on finasteride, but their hair loss could have just stopped there and not progressed further. On the contrary, they could continue to recede all the way to a high norwood.
My own case was similar, I was a NW2 at around 22 years old. I continued to recede until I hit a NW3 at 27.5. Clearly my hair loss isn't as aggressive as some, but I really have no idea where it's going to end up. The worst pattern in my family looks like a NW5a, but it's all over the place in terms of consistency. I have a worse hairline than my father did at 55, for instance. Knowing that I could very well be destined for a NW5 in my mid 30s, I just cut my losses and went on 0.5mg of finasteride.
I think what Kintor has in the pipeline with pyrilutimide is the most promising thing, but I'm not getting my hopes up for it. They also haven't even started phase II trials in the US (though they have been approved), so who knows how long we'll be waiting for it to hit the market. That, and when/if it does hit the market, who knows what sort of side effect profile it's going to have. Anything that binds to androgen receptors has the potential to wreak havoc if it goes systemic and doesn't degrade into some sort of harmless particle once it reaches the blood stream. This is particularly the case if it is strong enough to halt hairloss, as it would have to have a binding affinity that is at least as strong as DHT.
Yeah that's the thing. It would be super helpful if we could test and predict our fate. Not only could treatments be tailored better, but you could also plan and execute a transplant much more effectively. And yeah, I don't expect any treatment to hit the market any time soon that is as effective as finasteride and minoxidil. Before we even identify a safe, effective AA or modified estrogen powerful enough to combat androgenic alopecia, there really needs to be breakthroughs in dermal carrier technology first, so I think it's going to be quite a while unfortunately. Then again, the cloning stuff might happen before all that so who knows. It's just amazing that it still is pretty much about "the big 3" and unfortunately, aside from a few slight modifications, it is what the average guy with hair loss needs at minimum to battle it.
Hey i have a question regarding hair loss stopping at 22. So Im 22 years old and my temples have receded, specially my right temple. But my hair is still thick, seems to be no sign of loss in the crown and i never notice any kind of shedding. For example when i use shampoo i might see 2-3 hairs maximum. So you’re telling me its possible my temples have receded and now my hairloss will halt/slow down? This would be very good news as i didnt tolerate finasteride very well, and cant seem to find a viable alternative to it. Thinking about fluridil though.
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I think the Yoda quote ''do or do not there is no try'' some's up my view on finasteride, its up to people to make there own choice what to take and what not to take, people are still discussing this 24 years after its release, and will likely still be discussing it 24years from now, but in the meantime I still intend to take it for the duration unless it becomes obsolete. .
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It's possible, it's not uncommon for men to develop what's known as a mature hairline (NW2) and then stop there. Some prominent hair transplant surgeons don't even consider this to be a stage of balding (https://www.bernsteinmedical.com/hair-loss/men/classification/). With that said, it would be a good idea to see a doctor who specializes in this to be sure. They'd need to examine you with a trichoscope to determine if you have active miniaturization.
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Just for balance, A few voices on forums doesn't change the fact the majority of people taking finasteride do not appear to be getting sexual sides......like I have already said further back in this thread, its made no difference to my Libido or morning wood being on finasteride for over 20 years.
This should be made clear to everyone. Obviously most if not almost all of the people on these forums have either a) tried finasteride and are not satisfied with results or b)tried it and got sides. Most people that take finasteride and get no sides just go on with their lives. I know for certain once i find something to maintain my hair without sides my account will be deleted in a heartbeat. I wish i had no use for these forums.
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This is the exact point I was trying to make in the above post.
The under research done on this drug needs to be pointed out. It's weird that people just consider sexual sides as "the sides" caused by finasteride.
I would not want to live a life by committing to a drug for my entire lifetime (or a major part when I want to keep hair) and wake up anxiously for whatever it does to a normal functioning body.
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Don't take it then, I wouldn't want to live a life by committing to inhaling tar and nicotine 20 times a day my entire lifetime, but plenty of other people seam to think its a good idea. the way you choose to live your life is your choice at the end of the day.
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I think it's fair to say that people "just consider sexual sides" because these are the side effects that are by far the most commonly reported. They're also the most immediate, particularly for men in their 20s and 30s.
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the second line in the OP says, ''This is about sexual side effects''
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Agree, but in my opinion it is also because these sides are commonly reported on the internet, a layman starting the drug will just look for these sides, making it a vicious circle. I think only few people go through the hassle of blood work and regular health check ups (maybe even before starting finasteride) to compare /correlate changes attributed to the drug.
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Yeah, that's true. In my case I spent about 4 months researching the drug and had two comprehensive hormone panels taken two months apart before starting. That way if something ends up going south, I at least know where to look. I'm not thrilled about taking a 5ARI for the long term, but if I didn't at least try to stop my hair loss, I would have regretted not knowing whether or not I could have for decades (assuming that I've inherited something beyond a NW4).
You would be happy ending up with NW4?
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Not staying there. If you end up with a NW4 and that's as far as your recession goes, you can get hair transplants (assuming your donor area isn't horrid) and look fine. If you've reached your genetic pattern you don't need to be on finasteride as long as you understand that getting touch up transplants is probably in your future. The problem is that it's hard to predict what genetic pattern you've inherited.
Makes sense
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Yes, somehow I never used to trust Dr. Vikram even before this came out and told to my friend who introduced this channel to me. I have studied human psychology and something in his eyes, and the way he interrupted/continued the conversation with Dr. Russel always made me skeptical about him.Another popular coping channel is this one, two dermatologists with almost no knowledge of endocrinology, the hairloss show:
One of the doctors, Vikram is also a known fraud:
GP suspended for lying about qualifications - NZ Herald
Latest breaking news articles, photos, video, blogs, reviews, analysis, opinion and reader comment from New Zealand and around the World - NZ Heraldwww.nzherald.co.nz
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Their Channel is to promote their services and products connected with their business......The only thing they have to cope with is how to hide their incomes from the taxman.
What are million's of men with full or almost full heads of hair, coping with exactly? having to buy a comb once every 5 years? I don't get this coping slur strategy?. The majority of men buy enough finasteride for 6months or a year or more at a time and after taking it for decades, living a normal family life they would have largely forgotten they are still on it. Are you suggesting that every finasteride user is some how scouring the internet 24hrs a day looking for positive drug studies as a means to cope with the immense psychological anxiety that you believe they must be enduring from taking a daily tablet?
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An article like this has no place in a scientific journal. Absolute garbage. I wonder how the patient must feel now after his dermatologist published an article that's effectively invalidating him.Here's a good example of a true garbage "study" some fina users try to cope with;
Post-Finasteride Syndrome: An Induced Delusional Disorder with the Potential of a Mass Psychogenic Illness?
Abstract. Post-finasteride syndrome (PFS) has been claimed to occur in men who have taken oral finasteride to treat either hair loss or benign prostatic hyperplasia, independent of age, dosage, or indication. By definition, the condition is characterized by sexual dysfunction, somatic symptoms...www.karger.comPost-Finasteride Syndrome: An Induced Delusional Disorder with the Potential of a Mass Psychogenic Illness?
Here's a good breakdown from a user on reddit:
"This article is a case report of one patient that a Swiss hair transplant surgeon (Dr. Ralph Trüeb) saw in his clinic. The title is spectacular -- but also deceiving because it doesn't indicate this is a case report:
Case reports are among the weakest types of medical evidence. This article is mostly speculation and contributes no systematic evidence. From the abstract:
The first three authors are all affiliated with Dr. Trüeb's hair clinic near Zürich, Switzerland. The fourth author lists an affiliation with the Dermatology department of a university hospital in Brazil.
The article was published in the journal Skin Appendage Disorders, a dermatology journal with a 50% acceptance rate: https://www.karger.com/Journal/Leaflet/261870
One of the editors is Antonella Tosti, a dermatologist at University of Abilene who has a record of defending finasteride's safety. She has numerous relationships to the pharma industry and took over $82,000 in payments from pharma companies in the past seven years (see OpenPaymentsData). In the past Dr. Tosti has taken payments from Propecia maker Merck (disclosed in her publications).
Dr. Trüeb has written another article that cannot be called a scientific article:
The article on post-finasteride syndrome has an attention-grabbing title but contributes no new evidence that would help understand or rule out post-finasteride syndrome. It's best viewed as a sensational, unscientific opinion piece."
You can make similar knocks against the "studies" done on post-finasteride syndrome though. It's sort of like the pot calling the kettle black. They have low sample sizes, biased sample selections, poor methodologies, in some cases the complete lack of control groups and they are retrospective in design, among other issues. Trueb's contribution is complete garbage, but the studies done on post-finasteride syndrome are whatever one step above complete garbage is.
The reality is that none of the studies to date elucidate a mechanism for PFS or the at risk patient population. At best they just raise awareness about the issue and will hopefully prompt better research in the future.
I think the message that prospective finasteride users need to be told regarding PFS is that, for unknown reasons, what is likely an extremely small number of individuals respond poorly to the drug and have potentially debilitating persistent side effects.