Evidence: Testosterone (not DHT) causing male pattern baldness!!!!!!!

[drinkrum]

Remember also this study is on the frontal bald scalp of the monkeys. Finasteride has been notoriously poor at preserving frontal hair vis-a-vis hair on the vertex. Anyway, the point Bryan made is valid -- we simply don't know enough about hair loss to make large generalizations. But we do know that the pseudohermaphrodites from the Dominican Republic do not go bald and they lack the 5-AR II isozyme. They have normal levels of testosterone after puberty.

D.

 

[Bryan]

Notice that article mention both T and DHT can bind to Androgen Receptor in hair follicle.

Therefore, this partially support my hypothesis that T (in addition to DHT), can potentially cause hair loss.

And like I said, if Dutasteride cannot even slowdown hairloss in some men (with its 95% suppression of DHT), then this definitely points to the fact that T (or some other derivatives or other androgen) causes male pattern baldness.

From now on whenever you guys read studies like the one cited above in which testosterone was used and produced some particular effect (either in vitro or in vivo), I hope you realize that it certainly doesn't _prove_ that it was the testosterone itself which caused that effect! 5a-reductase is an important cellular enzyme in such tissues, and a given effect may well be caused by the conversion of that testosterone to DHT, and not the testosterone per se.

However, having said all that...there _is_ another additional piece of evidence which argues in favor of the possibility that testosterone itself could indeed be at least partially responsible for the results in that macaque study, and in similar in vitro studies (consider that a little hint). I've been waiting to see if anyone else would think of it. It's not what "mattam" said above, it's something else...

Bryan

 

[mattam]

I've been waiting to see if anyone else would think of it. It's not what "mattam" said above, it's something else...
Bryan

Bryan...

Don't keep us (at least me) waiting...spill it out!!!

My background was not in biology so I probably might have made some errors here and there discerning these scientific studies. But, I think not bad for two college courses in biology!!! But, yes I admit, I probably read into the article too quickly. Nonetheless, the article points out thatT and DHT can bind to AR in hair follicle (which I didn't know before)

That said, without you additional evidence, how do you you also refute the fact that something else other than DHT also causes male pattern baldness:

- Only in castrated men & hormone-treated transgendered people can hairloss be stopped in its stract even after puberty

 

[Old Baldy]

Matt: I don't know if this is what Bryan is alluding to but, I imagine, testosterone could have an effect on the growth of the actual dermal papillae and outer root sheath cells themselves? You know, T might inhibit their normal fundamental growth characteristics in the first place? Before we even get to the effect DHT has on our poor stricken follicles?

Maybe T causes a "mutation" in the normal way DP and outer sheath cells grow and multiply? Kind of like a friggin' cancer?

I can't prove this and don't even know if I'm out in leftfield but this is my wild guess.

 

[Fallout Boy]

Just for a second say Test. is a factor in male pattern baldness .. would spironolactone / Fluridil block Test in the scalp as well as Dht?? or just Dht??

 

[stax]

spironolactone is supposed to block DHT from binding to the androgen receptor and convert testosterone into estrogen.

Fluridil is supposed to fully shut down the androgen receptor so neither Test or DHT can bind to it.

I would use both.

 

[chewbaca]

:x

 

[thewongandonly]

Gees guys, although this all sounds plausible, I have my doubts. My main reason...guys with LOTS of Testosterone have LOTS of thick hair! IMO.

See my other thread.

My hypothesis is that... in SOME men or in CERTAIN area of the scalp, male pattern baldness/hairloss is caused by Testosterone instead of (or in addition to) DHT. And this is genetic.

SO....it obviously doesn't mean that men full of T will lose their hair. It's just that genetically, they are not susceptible to either DHT or T.

Whereas some of us do...unfortunately to BOTH and not just to DHT.

Got it?????

So those men (which hairloss is caused by Test. & DHT) will lose more hair when having frequent sex, right?

 

[stax]

Actually having frequent sex lowers testosterone. I really dont think testosterone plays a huge role in balding even those who are prone to it. It may cause a little damage but notas much as DHT in my opinion. I would simply use spironolactone 5% once at night if you are worried. I was talking to Dr.Proctor about finasteride,spironolactone,proxiphen, and he said that 1 dose of spironolactone per day should be enough to block the androgen receptors. Also he said that Propecia is simply the best intrenal DHT blocker that we have today and that Dutasteridemay generally works a BIT better and faster but is more likely to cause more side effects. If you are really worried i would use Fluridil once per day and spironolactone once per day. You cant get better topical anti-androgens than that. Testosterone will not be able to bind to the andogen receptors with these medicines.

 

[mattam]

I really dont think testosterone plays a huge role in balding even those who are prone to it. It may cause a little damage but notas much as DHT in my opinion

Trust me, Stax, I really want to believe that to be the case. But I will be a living proof of this hypothesis (well, hopefully not).

But, I had been a good responder to Propecia. First 2.5 years complete maintenance at Norwood 2.5. Then I happened to stop for 5 months (in grad school...kinda short on cash). Then started losing FAST. But got back on it and, like a miracle, got back to my 2.5 in just 5 months.

But then something happened. Last year, while being on Propecia all this time, I start losing, fast. Now I am 3.5-4 in just 6 months. Got on dutasteride last month and it seemed to have gotten worse....

Anyway, my hair is a mess and I thinking about shaving my head soon. I guess I will continue to take dutasteride for at least 6 months. If dutasteride doesn't work for me by then, you know you have a living proof that something other than DHT is getting to all the hair.....

 

[Pete]

DHT is the main hormonal cause of male hairloss.

 

[stax]

mattam, im sorry to hear about your situation. Well mabye your type 2 5-alpha reductase production is really strong. If it is test than i suggest Fluridil and 5% spironolactone once per day. It could also be the bad form of estrogen and insulin causing your hairloss. If you want the ultimate stack i would suggest then here it is.

dutasteride 0.5mg-once per day
Fluridil
Proxiphen ( if not proxiphen 5% spironolactone but proxiphen would be better)
15% minoxidil - once per night
5% minoxidil - once per day
Nizoral 2% shampoo -3 times per week
Nano shampoo and conditioner - other days of the week
DIM- helps stop the the production of bad estrogen
Cut down on sugars,saturated fats,sodium,dairy,and simple carbs.

Simple carbs cause an insulin release i've heard but i dont think complex carbs do. I would also do some cardio in the morning. Also ffter 3 years on minoxidil you can drop the 5% minoxidil and only use the 15% minoxidil once per day. If you can afford it i would try this for 1 year and see what happens. I think your results should be awesom since you have every single angle covered. Just my opinion.

 

[Fallout Boy]

What is bad estrogen??? what does it do?? .. if spironolactone converts T to Estrogen is it bad estrogen or not?? Would using Fluridil and finasteride. be better than spironolactone 5% and finasteride?

 

[stax]

bad estrogen is 16-hydroxy estrogen which can cause abnormal growth,fat accumilation,gyno,hairloss, breast cancer.

Here's a link on DIM

http://www.naturodoc.com/library/hormon ... ethane.htm

spironolactone doesnt convert test to the bad form of estrogen.

I think using Fluridil and finasteride would be better than using finasteride and spironolactone. Fluridil seems more powerfull as it shuts down the androgen receptors.

 

[Bryan]

I don't know of any evidence that estrogen causes scalp hairloss. In fact, what evidence there actually is seems to indicate that estrogen is GOOD for scalp hair.

There may indeed be some very good general health reasons for men to lower their production of estrogen, but it's very doubtful that it has anything to do with causing balding.

Bryan

 

[Chris Johnson]

Damn, so far now we have DHT, Testosterone, Estrogen, IGF-1, and insulin all linked to hair loss. Basically everything causes hair loss. :freaked2:

 

[Bryan]

Estrogen isn't linked to scalp hairloss.

 

[Fallout Boy]

Thanks stax and bryan

 

[mattam]

Thanks Stax..

spironolactone is an antiandrogen. I understand that, if taken orally, it actually kills Testosterone (well...or block or some reaction causing T not to work). That's why it's used as oral medication in only women. Coz men taking it is like doing a chemical castration.

So, my question is, would topical spironolactone affect my blood-level T ( and not just scalp)?

As bad as my hairloss is, I'd rather go bald and shave than have a shrinking penis...

:lol:

 

[stax]

No topical spironolactone (which was what i was referring to) will not enter your blood stream and cause you side effects. I've been using it for almost 3 months ( 2 months on 5% spironolactone then switched to Proxiphen last month which has spironolactone in it). What i meant by the whole bad estrogen thing was that on the hairlosshelp forums Peter Mac stated that he read in a body building mag or something that DIM is benificial for hairloss among other things. I guess because it helps the production of good estrogen instead of bad estrogen.