Exploring The Hormonal Route. Hair=life.

[bridgeburn]

Saw many who took Avodart 2.5 mg per day but new hair was not much, but baldness stopped. For new hair, you probably need to add estradiol. Few people tried to increase the dose of avodart. I conclude that Avodart 0.5 mg per day cannot cover the message dht. With increasing doses, the situation improves.

there are a few on here that have claimed better results with high dose dutasteride but later it stops working and they have to increase the dutasteride dose again to get better again and then repeat until up-regulation fucks them. I think its a dangerous thing to risk.

The opinion that testosterone harms the hair is erroneous. Testosterone does not harm the hair. Only dht. The fact is that the CPA is much stronger blocks dht and only this is the reason for success. And to block testosterone makes no sense. This can be verified by increasing the dose of dutasteride. Dgt is very strong and is the hardest to block. There are people with a genetic defect alpha reductase and with a lot of testosterone, but hair does not fall out. I think that testosterone like estradiol has a good effect on hair. Maybe I'm wrong, I do not know. There is something else about this later.

Here's my take on this.. I do not think that testosterone is good for hair, at least not directly. It has been known for a long time, even noted by Aristotle that eunuchs castrated before puberty don't go bald. DHT is much much stronger than testosterone yes, and it is possible that testosterone alone is not strong enough on its own to cause baldness.. but the hormonal profile which is required to Regrow hair is different than which is required to Prevent hairloss. It's much harder to raise hair from the dead.

Here's one example:

Genetically Identical Twins, one of them started dutasteride as soon as they noticed signs of hairloss and halted further balding. The other one put off treatment for several years..

"I have now been taking Dutasteride for 6 years and my twin obviously around 11 years. Over time I have not suffered any detrimental side effects (some of the typical negative ones are decreased libido and impotence)."

"It took me a further 5 years to actually be concerned enough to act when my bald spot became a lot more prevalent. I'm sure most men are like me, they wait for clear confirmation that something is happening and then they decide to act as opposed to listening to and dealing with the problem early on. However, the truth is, even though I am balder than my twin brother."

http://www.twinshairloss.com/

So, the point is that the other twin started dutasteride After losing his hair and it didn't save him like it did his brother.

So, how can it be sure that MAXIMUM results, particularly for Regrowth rather than maintenance wouldn't also require lowering testosterone as well?

Ok, so here's my next point: Testosterone has affinity to the androgen receptor.. DHT is worse than testosterone because it has 2 to 3 times greater activation and stays attached to the androgen receptor 5x longer than testosterone. There are bodybuilders who blast hardcore synthetic steroids, which are not T or DHT, and lose hair because they have affinity to that same receptor. If you have have balding genes and take a steroid as strong as or stronger than DHT, then you are guaranteed to be speeding up the balding process.

If DHT causes 20 times more gene transcriptional activity than T (I don't know the number, just using this as a hypothetical example) then 1 molecule of DHT would be worth 20 molecules of testosterone.

Who is to say that a very high amount of something weaker can't accomplish what a normal amount of something stronger?:
-The venom of a cobra is more toxic than the venom of a king cobra, but being bitten by a king cobra is deadlier because it injects a lot more!

- "during pregnancy, estrone and estradiol production is increased about 100 times over non-pregnant levels. However, the increase in maternal estriol excretion is about a thousand-fold. The traditional view that estriol in pregnancy is a weak estrogen metabolite is not accurate. A weak estrogen provided in high concentrations can produce a biologic response equivalent to that of estradiol."

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=KZLubBxJEwEC&pg=PA283&dq=clinical+gynecologic+endocrinology+and+infertility+estriol+pregnancy&hair loss=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifqvbu_4XgAhUIVrwKHfrQArIQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=clinical gynecologic endocrinology and infertility estriol pregnancy&f=false

-hell, this guy even increased his estrogen by drinking soy milk:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18558591

However, it's important to note; he was drinking 3 f*****g quarts of it everyday!!!

Ok, moving on to another point:

"In face-skin cells, androgen receptors stimulated by testosterone respond by initiating a cascade of growth, promoting production of a chemical called insulin growth factor (IGF); you might say the testosterone "key" unlocks the door and lets out IGF. Conversely, in the scalp, testosterone activates processes that suppress hair growth, by "letting out" a substance called transforming growth factor, reducing the diameter of follicles to cause thinning, as well as promoting production of oil (sebumn) that can clog hair follicles and stop hair from growing."

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=XPOaDgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=testosterone+hair+androgen+receptor&hair loss=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9nYW5m4HgAhUb97wKHUO8ABoQ6AEITTAH#v=onepage&q=testosterone hair androgen receptor&f=false

And this study here shows caffeine increasing the anagen phase by counteracting Transforming growth factor.. :

"
BACKGROUND:
Caffeine reportedly counteracts the suppression of hair shaft production by testosterone in organ-cultured male human hair follicles (HFs)."

" Caffeine counteracted testosterone-enhanced TGF-β2 protein expression in male HFs."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24836650

By the way, one the effects of Minoxidil is by: "inhibition of TGF-β-induced apoptosis of hair matrix cell"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5877552/


So, no I sure the hell don't think that testosterone is good for hair..

Especially considering this guy improved his hair situation by having himself physically castrated:

https://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/interact/threads/i-castrated-myself-to-halt-baldness.119212/

Now, I have yet another point believe it or not.. :

Our hair follicles produce both aromatase and 5ar. Although women have more in the frontotemporal regions than men. estrogen might be the reason for this: "we noticed in 17alpha-estradiol-incubated (1 nM) female hair follicles a concentration- and time-dependent increase of aromatase activity" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190948 However, I haven't found an estradiol incubated study done on follicles from men.

but Also,
"Plucked human hair follicles demonstrate aromatase activity in culture (Schweikert et al., 1975), while a comparison of scalp biopsies from men and women with androgenetic alopecia revealed aromatase levels to be higher in hair follicles from occipital scalp when compared to those from the frontal scalp (Sawaya and Price, 1997)."

"Furthermore, the same study found that aromatase levels were approximately six times higher in the frontal hair follicles of women when compared to men."


So, If you were to take a look at the scalp androgen receptors (of someone not on hormone altering treatments) I doubt if you'd find much testosterone there because whenever testosterone reaches the follicles from the blood stream it will end up being converted into either DHT or Estradiol.. and if you Inhibit 5AR with dutasteride, or etc. Then yes, the rise in testosterone can be good for hair, because you are increasing the amount of T which becomes E in the scalp.

We also know that testosterone has an inhibitory effect on breast development, but if you were to rub topical testosterone gel on your breasts,,.. there's a good chance it will actually make gyno worse because of Aromatase. and that's exactly what happens and is known to happen with bodybuilders who take testosterone for steroidal gains in the gym.

So, if you want to know how good testosterone directly is for hair. then you would have to inhibit both 5alpha reductase and aromatase.

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

So, if you want to know how good testosterone directly is for hair. then you would have to inhibit both 5alpha reductase and aromatase.

Can sipronolactone 400 mg reduce testosterone to the castrated level?

 

[Ziggyz123]

Update on my spironolactone journey lol. Last night I broke out in hives and woke up with horrible itching and hives all over. I’ll upload a picture later. I think it’s uticaria from spironolactone unfortunately. I’m gonna take a day off of it and start over at just 75mg a day

 

[rupture]

Can sipronolactone 400 mg reduce testosterone to the castrated level?

does not matter dont do that much you will destroy your kidney's

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

does not matter dont do that much you will destroy your kidney's

what shall I do then in order to nuke my testosterone? How is you hair condition?

 

[Stephen788]

Update on my spironolactone journey lol. Last night I broke out in hives and woke up with horrible itching and hives all over. I’ll upload a picture later. I think it’s uticaria from spironolactone unfortunately. I’m gonna take a day off of it and start over at just 75mg a day

You should go up 50mg a month to give your body time to adjust. We both started within a week of each other but I don’t seem to have any nasty side affects, it might be because you jumped up to 200mg within the first month. I’m still on 100mg as I’m taking it slowly. I’ll up my dosage again next week.

 

[Marky]

there are a few on here that have claimed better results with high dose dutasteride but later it stops working and they have to increase the dutasteride dose again to get better again and then repeat until up-regulation fucks them. I think its a dangerous thing to risk.


Here's my take on this.. I do not think that testosterone is good for hair, at least not directly. It has been known for a long time, even noted by Aristotle that eunuchs castrated before puberty don't go bald. DHT is much much stronger than testosterone yes, and it is possible that testosterone alone is not strong enough on its own to cause baldness.. but the hormonal profile which is required to Regrow hair is different than which is required to Prevent hairloss. It's much harder to raise hair from the dead.

Here's one example:
View attachment 110384

Genetically Identical Twins, one of them started dutasteride as soon as they noticed signs of hairloss and halted further balding. The other one put off treatment for several years..

"I have now been taking Dutasteride for 6 years and my twin obviously around 11 years. Over time I have not suffered any detrimental side effects (some of the typical negative ones are decreased libido and impotence)."

"It took me a further 5 years to actually be concerned enough to act when my bald spot became a lot more prevalent. I'm sure most men are like me, they wait for clear confirmation that something is happening and then they decide to act as opposed to listening to and dealing with the problem early on. However, the truth is, even though I am balder than my twin brother."

http://www.twinshairloss.com/

So, the point is that the other twin started dutasteride After losing his hair and it didn't save him like it did his brother.

So, how can it be sure that MAXIMUM results, particularly for Regrowth rather than maintenance wouldn't also require lowering testosterone as well?

Ok, so here's my next point: Testosterone has affinity to the androgen receptor.. DHT is worse than testosterone because it has 2 to 3 times greater activation and stays attached to the androgen receptor 5x longer than testosterone. There are bodybuilders who blast hardcore synthetic steroids, which are not T or DHT, and lose hair because they have affinity to that same receptor. If you have have balding genes and take a steroid as strong as or stronger than DHT, then you are guaranteed to be speeding up the balding process.

If DHT causes 20 times more gene transcriptional activity than T (I don't know the number, just using this as a hypothetical example) then 1 molecule of DHT would be worth 20 molecules of testosterone.

Who is to say that a very high amount of something weaker can't accomplish what a normal amount of something stronger?:
-The venom of a cobra is more toxic than the venom of a king cobra, but being bitten by a king cobra is deadlier because it injects a lot more!

- "during pregnancy, estrone and estradiol production is increased about 100 times over non-pregnant levels. However, the increase in maternal estriol excretion is about a thousand-fold. The traditional view that estriol in pregnancy is a weak estrogen metabolite is not accurate. A weak estrogen provided in high concentrations can produce a biologic response equivalent to that of estradiol."

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=KZLubBxJEwEC&pg=PA283&dq=clinical+gynecologic+endocrinology+and+infertility+estriol+pregnancy&hair loss=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwifqvbu_4XgAhUIVrwKHfrQArIQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=clinical gynecologic endocrinology and infertility estriol pregnancy&f=false

-hell, this guy even increased his estrogen by drinking soy milk:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18558591

However, it's important to note; he was drinking 3 f*****g quarts of it everyday!!!

Ok, moving on to another point:

"In face-skin cells, androgen receptors stimulated by testosterone respond by initiating a cascade of growth, promoting production of a chemical called insulin growth factor (IGF); you might say the testosterone "key" unlocks the door and lets out IGF. Conversely, in the scalp, testosterone activates processes that suppress hair growth, by "letting out" a substance called transforming growth factor, reducing the diameter of follicles to cause thinning, as well as promoting production of oil (sebumn) that can clog hair follicles and stop hair from growing."

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=XPOaDgAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=testosterone+hair+androgen+receptor&hair loss=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9nYW5m4HgAhUb97wKHUO8ABoQ6AEITTAH#v=onepage&q=testosterone hair androgen receptor&f=false

And this study here shows caffeine increasing the anagen phase by counteracting Transforming growth factor.. :

"
BACKGROUND:
Caffeine reportedly counteracts the suppression of hair shaft production by testosterone in organ-cultured male human hair follicles (HFs)."

" Caffeine counteracted testosterone-enhanced TGF-β2 protein expression in male HFs."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24836650

By the way, one the effects of Minoxidil is by: "inhibition of TGF-β-induced apoptosis of hair matrix cell"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5877552/


So, no I sure the hell don't think that testosterone is good for hair..

Especially considering this guy improved his hair situation by having himself physically castrated:

https://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/interact/threads/i-castrated-myself-to-halt-baldness.119212/

Now, I have yet another point believe it or not.. :

Our hair follicles produce both aromatase and 5ar. Although women have more in the frontotemporal regions than men. estrogen might be the reason for this: "we noticed in 17alpha-estradiol-incubated (1 nM) female hair follicles a concentration- and time-dependent increase of aromatase activity" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12190948 However, I haven't found an estradiol incubated study done on follicles from men.

but Also,
"Plucked human hair follicles demonstrate aromatase activity in culture (Schweikert et al., 1975), while a comparison of scalp biopsies from men and women with androgenetic alopecia revealed aromatase levels to be higher in hair follicles from occipital scalp when compared to those from the frontal scalp (Sawaya and Price, 1997)."

"Furthermore, the same study found that aromatase levels were approximately six times higher in the frontal hair follicles of women when compared to men."


So, If you were to take a look at the scalp androgen receptors (of someone not on hormone altering treatments) I doubt if you'd find much testosterone there because whenever testosterone reaches the follicles from the blood stream it will end up being converted into either DHT or Estradiol.. and if you Inhibit 5AR with dutasteride, or etc. Then yes, the rise in testosterone can be good for hair, because you are increasing the amount of T which becomes E in the scalp.

We also know that testosterone has an inhibitory effect on breast development, but if you were to rub topical testosterone gel on your breasts,,.. there's a good chance it will actually make gyno worse because of Aromatase. and that's exactly what happens and is known to happen with bodybuilders who take testosterone for steroidal gains in the gym.

So, if you want to know how good testosterone directly is for hair. then you would have to inhibit both 5alpha reductase and aromatase.

In her older years I always through Brooke Shields looked more and more like a man, I wonder if this is from menopause - E drops off while T increases in woman. She did appear to have a lower hairline in her youth:

 

[LEXUS]

For those with itchy anti-androgen. There is nothing surprising in this. Anti androgenv can not be taken without hormones. It is deadly. No transsexual will take anti-androgens without hormones. From this come heart attacks and strokes. They can only be taken with hormones. If you are taking an anti-androgen, then you need to take estradiol. The body should be either testosterone or estradiol.
Otherwise, the body is destroyed. The same thing happens with old men.
Anti androgen can stop baldness, but can not grow hair. Grow hair can only hormone. The hormone can also heal the skin that is itchy. I do not take any anti-androgens at all. I never took spironolactone and Cipro. I have half a tablet of estradiol slowly growing small new hair. But it will be much longer than the bridgeburn. I have testosterone and estradiol 50/50% in my body. I also take dutasteride, but this is not an anti-androgen. Anti androgens without hormones can only help those who have a lot of aromatase ..
Hair grows only from estradiol or progesterone. And if you take estradiol testosterone itself will fall. Progesterone itself works almost like Cipro and blocks androgens and competes with alpha reductase. Only progesterone, unlike сipro, is not harmful. It is possible instead of progesterone Dutа or finasteride. Because testosterone itself without DHT is not active. I read the MTF forum

Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[BetaBoy]

Anti androgenv can not be taken without hormones

AAs are not exclusively used by transexuals, yes you won’t see those with prostate cancer supplementing their AAs with Oestrogen.

Anti androgen can stop baldness, but can not grow hair

Bullshit, you haven’t gotta clue mate.

 

[itchymadscalp]

@LEXUS : I have itchy scalp (and other issues) and I'm taking estradiol. You can take AA without estradiol, if you take calcium supplement it's pretty ok.

 

[Ziggyz123]

You should go up 50mg a month to give your body time to adjust. We both started within a week of each other but I don’t seem to have any nasty side affects, it might be because you jumped up to 200mg within the first month. I’m still on 100mg as I’m taking it slowly. I’ll up my dosage again next week.

Yeah my feet were itching when I first started, but I figured it was athletes foot lol. After being on this, boom, urticaria. I have to get off it because my skin is rediculous now. Any where that it is touched, by clothing or by me, my body releases histamine there and there are like welts and hives that itch uncontrollably.

I actually had a reduction in oil on my forehead a little with 200mg even though I still picked off a few sebum plugs. Oh well lol, back to the drawing board. I’ll try and restart after I get this sorted out, but my body literally hates anti androgens it seems and I’ll never be able to treat my hairloss because I can’t even take them.

Here are some nasty photos of my back and then one that appeared around my eye(s)

 

[itchymadscalp]

Yeah my feet were itching when I first started, but I figured it was athletes foot lol. After being on this, boom, urticaria. I have to get off it because my skin is rediculous now. Any where that it is touched, by clothing or by me, my body releases histamine there and there are like welts and hives that itch uncontrollably.

I actually had a reduction in oil on my forehead a little with 200mg even though I still picked off a few sebum plugs. Oh well lol, back to the drawing board. I’ll try and restart after I get this sorted out, but my body literally hates anti androgens it seems and I’ll never be able to treat my hairloss because I can’t even take them.

Here are some nasty photos of my back and then one that appeared around my eye(s)

OMG ...
Be careful, maybe your kidneys are suffering right now, because of high dose spironolactone.

Go see a Doctor ASAP

 

[Ziggyz123]

OMG ...
Be careful, maybe your kidneys are suffering right now, because of high dose spironolactone.

Go see a Doctor ASAP

Yeah idk, I went to a walk in earlier and they gave me a steroid shot and prescribed medroxyprednisone as well. I’m just curious as to what I should do after this all clears with treatments. What a shame

 

[itchymadscalp]

@Ziggyz123 : Try 12.5mg cyproterone ... maybe 25mg. But avoid spironolactone, it's sh*t if you have to take 200 or 400mg to obliterate your testosterone level.

 

[Ziggyz123]

@Ziggyz123 : Try 12.5mg cyproterone ... maybe 25mg. But avoid spironolactone, it's sh*t if you have to take 200 or 400mg to obliterate your testosterone level.

Yeah I’m honestly not interested in destroying my dick lol. Is 12.5mg capable of sustaining a sex drive and giving mild reduction in sebum?

 

[itchymadscalp]

@Ziggyz123 : I don't know ... you have to try yourself and you will know. Cypro 12.5mg is still safer than 200-400mg spironolactone. Some take 50-100mg cypro and their dick still get hard and have sexdrive.

 

[Father_of_Shiseido]

OMG ...
Be careful, maybe your kidneys are suffering right now, because of high dose spironolactone.

Go see a Doctor ASAP

What are the signs of kidney dysfunction ? I am on 400 mg spironolactone and getting extremely tired. No excessive urination, feeling pain in both the nipple.

 

[rupture]

What are the signs of kidney dysfunction ? I am on 400 mg spironolactone and getting extremely tired. No excessive urination, feeling pain in both the nipple.

Hyperkalemia can happen which is excessive potassium for one

 

[bridgeburn]

Avodart is an acid and it hurts the stomach of the liver to bones and teeth.

I do notice that if I take it on an empty stomach it feels nauseating. Only with dutasteride I feel this. but I don't feel it at all if I take after eating

And there is information that a lot of carbohydrates, sugar and bread cause insulin resistance. Insulin resistance greatly increases DHT. If someone consumes a lot of carbohydrates, you will struggle with hair loss.

yes. Insulin reduces SHBG, and SHBG is lower in balding men.

Dutasterid is very strong but it acts very little. The first 5 hours, it suppresses 99% of DHT. Later its action begins to fall. After 12 hours, its action drops completely and the body begins to resist and raises more DHT than it was before.

do you have a source for this?

 

[Stephen788]

Yeah my feet were itching when I first started, but I figured it was athletes foot lol. After being on this, boom, urticaria. I have to get off it because my skin is rediculous now. Any where that it is touched, by clothing or by me, my body releases histamine there and there are like welts and hives that itch uncontrollably.

I actually had a reduction in oil on my forehead a little with 200mg even though I still picked off a few sebum plugs. Oh well lol, back to the drawing board. I’ll try and restart after I get this sorted out, but my body literally hates anti androgens it seems and I’ll never be able to treat my hairloss because I can’t even take them.

Here are some nasty photos of my back and then one that appeared around my eye(s)

That’s a shame. Looking at your first pic your hair doesn’t look bad. Maybe your just allergic to it?