Follica - Good News!

[elguapo]

I was once treated for rosacea with a laser called the V-Beam by a world renowned "professional", and the results were far from impressive. My point is, "professionals" can screw up just like the rest of us. To me, the funniest thing on the show "Scrubs" is when the doctors make fun of dermatologists, treating them like "wanna-be" doctors. After my personal experience with derms, I whole-heartedly agree with that joke. But I am sure that some derms are more compitent than others. I look forward to seeing what Dr. Cotsarelis pulls out of his hat. It goes without saying that I hope he accomplishes what he is setting out to accomplish with Follica.

My opionion... if somebody wants to give this a shot at home, fricking go for it! But I agree with the the plan of just waiting a bit - say a year or two - to see how Follica's procedure pans out.

 

[joemadrid]

.

Even if somebody did carry out the treatment 'by themselves' and gained a positive result, it would be TOTALLY and UTTERLY irresponsible to start encouraging other users on the forum to do the same. Like I said earlier, treatments of this kind NEED to be carried out by professionals. If something were to go wrong, you could end up permanently damaging the skin or even end up with a nasty looking scar.

IMHO, if you do not mess with the WNT pathway, there is more risk in a hair transplant than in these follica thing.

 

[harold]

there is a drug called lefloumonide (Arava is its brand name because I know I spelled that wrong) that is mentioned in the follica patent that is cheap---or much much cheaper than the other drugs mentioned. It inhibits egf-by a more indirect route. its an arthritis medication.

Hi michael. Do we know a topical version of this drug?

There is no topical version - lefluromonide is a pro-drug in terms of EGFR inhbition just like flutamide is to the androgen receptor. In other words it is an active metabolite of the drug that inhibits the EGFR.
hh

 

[harold]

If someone has the definitive answer on how deep the dermabrasion should be, then that would be useful to know.

Some people seem to think just a few layers of skin, others think it should be deeper.

What has Follica said about this in their patents? Is it clear?

That is what Follica is trying to find out in their trials. Their patent mentions all of the above cases because they dont know how far they need to go and what gives the best results.
hh

 

[ross007]

as much as we want to believe follica would work, the dont even communicate with us, give us a date? is this because the are a private company?

 

[goata007]

as much as we want to believe follica would work, the dont even communicate with us, give us a date? is this because the are a private company?

yes, they really don't have to answer to anyone except for Daphne Zohar of Puretechventures (the VC funding Follica) and she is being kept in the loop.

As of giving a date, currently they are fine tuning their receipe and understanding the process more before they actually proceed with trials. At current pace and assuming everything goes according to the plan, I'm quite sure they'll start trials by fall.

 

[jared_24]

They haven't even started their trials yet??? :roll: :roll:

So basically even though they have had success with the mice, having the same success with the the human trials is still 'wishful thinking' at present, i presume.

Without meaning to sound too pessimistic, I am certainly not getting my hopes up. Even if there is success with the trials, chances are the treatment will not be made available until at least 2010/2011.. (though I seriously hope I am wrong!!)

I for one was hoping it would be made available within the next 12 months - it doesn't look as though that is going to happen if they have not even began the human trials yet.

 

[ross007]

ummm were half way in 2008, another two three years isnt that much longer to wait if its going to be the real deal... time if flying. i remember 2000 like it was yesterday!

 

[Dario]

They haven't even started their trials yet??? :roll: :roll:

So basically even though they have had success with the mice, having the same success with the the human trials is still 'wishful thinking' at present, i presume.

Without meaning to sound too pessimistic, I am certainly not getting my hopes up. Even if there is success with the trials, chances are the treatment will not be made available until at least 2010/2011.. (though I seriously hope I am wrong!!)

I for one was hoping it would be made available within the next 12 months - it doesn't look as though that is going to happen if they have not even began the human trials yet.

In 12 months!?
I would be happy if it comes in 2010/2011 like you said.

 

[jared_24]

But I want it NOW..... NOW I TELL YOU!!!! :woot:

Seriously though, with all the buzz that has been generated on here (regarding Follica) I had convinced myself that it was going to be made available this year.

I agree that *if* it is a success and *if* it is made available in the next 2-4 years, yes it will fly past.... but it's another 2-4 years of my life which will have been eclipsed by this b*stard male pattern baldness condition - it certainly is one hell of a b!tch.

 

[chancer]

It’s not a gloomy as your all making out... but at the same time it is...lol

"They’ve Only Tested it on mice"..... Yes correct, but mice with a bloody big wedge of male-human scalp growing on its back... all trials for most things start like that. Its a bloody good indicator that if successful, the same principles will apply on a human... you cant get a better test dummy than that can you?? come on...

But Even if they have trials this year and it worked a right treat there would be no way this treatment would be out even in 2009... not to us the common everyday man anyway..

If all goes well it will be hollywood, Beverly hills and London’s Posh Toffs who'll be first in line for this treatment paying silly amounts of money.

Just like boob jobs and collagen lip injections where only available to the richest women in the world back in the 80's.... and it wasn’t till the 90's that it became affordable for the girl next door to have a boob job... now they can have a perky new set of "Bristol Cities"" for just £2,000...

Follica for men will be no different; It will be years before we get our hands on it if it comes out.... Bruce Willis and Co. will be first in the cue... But by then we may be able to DIY it and that is a big incentive to keep this research in these threads alive....

 

[ross007]

i dont agree with you there. the market for hair loss is huge! follica know that if they get this to work and make it affordable they will still make billions. there are so many balding people around both male and female so the market is there. sure the price might come down over the years but i think i will still be affordable.

 

[Orin]

*that* it works in human is pretty much established. As amazing as it sounds that hair can be created spotaneously, it's apparently real - even without adding a EGFR-inhibitor, as Follica is doing.

So I'm not really worried about about it working, but rather if it's working consistently. Mice are different in humans purely aesthetically speaking (regarding their hair). You don't need much fur to get decent coverage. I'm a little worried that the Follica-treatment will require 3-4 passes over a bald (or heavily balding) head before you can get some substantial results. And with that comes prohibitive cost.

Anyway, my real reason for posting was to ask if any of you know about dermabrasion acids? My very moderate results with Wnt-signaling is encouraging enough to move on to EGFR-inhibitors, which arguably are more important. Apparently, WnT is relased in pretty healthy doses when the skin is damaged (if you're a relatively young and healthy person) - EGFR-inhibitors is not.

This is probably why Follica seemed to drop the Wnt-signaling from their "kit" they recently patented. I'm going to toy around with some topical caffeine (in lack of anything better), and if it works better than lithium, I'm thinking it could give me some coverage if I'm patient enough. Naturally, some kind of mild acid that destroys the outermost layer would be preferable, as trying to scrape small areas between hairs is incredibly tedious. I doubt I'd have energy enough to do that over half my head 4-5 times.

So, anyone know of any acid that destroys skin but leaves hair standing? Or perhaps such a thing does not exist. I'm guessing very few dermabrasion-tools are made for scalp-use.


EDIT: Btw, not to get off the topic I just made, but here's a link to some new company that's doing something analog to Follica, but empathizing WnT-signaling instead.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20080516/ ... UACCvNybYF

What jumped out to me, is that when they tried the gel on humans after laser-dermabrasion (for 8 days I believe), their skin healed up quicker and nicer. But when they talk about trying it out for hair-loss, they demonstrate it with a mouse model. I may be speaking out of my ***, but this switch-a-roo with presenting positive data, seems - atleast to me- to substantiate Follicas theory, in that elevating WnT in humans is not nearly as important in terms of new hair-growth, as it is in animals. If it created hair in the humans they tried the gel on, surely they would say something about it, atleast in some vague wording.

Or perhaps I'm jumping to conclusions. It's just a non-scientific article, after all, and god knows you can't trust them for any kind of detail.

In any case, if you don't want to be a sourpuss, it looks like we might have a second company - Histogen - to compete with Follica through pretty similar methods. I don't see how this is not good news in the long run. Should one fail, the other can pick up the slack.

Good times.

 

[ross007]

hmmm but follica said they made make hair and thicker and darker? well at the end of the day both companies are looking to make $$$$$ hopefully they can hurry this up!

 

[Orin]

Apparently AndroScience is soon (as in Q4 of 2008 soon) going to start trials with their hairloss foam

http://www.androscience.com/Design/Asse ... Update.pdf

It seems the foam degrades androgen receptors, perhaps (hopefully) destroying them, and apparently only the ones that respond to DHT.

If it works, and Follica works, you could be looking at a definitive cure for hairloss. What's most interesting, is the possibility that it detroys androgen receptors beyond repair, as in using the foam a couple of times and then never have to do it again. I'm sure AndroScience is hoping that it alone will be enough to reverse hairloss, and it most likely will. If nothing else, it should completly halt any further loss and you'd never have to take propecia or the like ever again.

I think a combination of Follica and Androscience-foam is the most likely cure for hairloss in the future, and seems to be a more elegant version than stem-cells. Of course, product such as Interyctex's are nothing to sneeze at, but everything points towards it being realized in the distant future.

Also, since the foam is basically future-proofing, you could administer the product to people when they're 14-15 and eliminate any hereditary hairloss.

Today seems to have come with a surprisingly rich bounty of news. I think this year, and 2009, will be very exciting.

EDIT: woops, seems like androgen receptors do regenerate periodically. Who knows at what pace though.. here's hoping it's more of a once-a-week thing instead of twice-daily application.

 

[ross007]

so do we no when Histogen are going to start human trails?

 

[Orin]

Not really, no.

But you should look at it as a good indication that Follica is on to something. I saw a similar patent, that may or may not have been Histogen's popping up a few weeks ago. I'm guessing enthusiastic forums are not the only ones who caught interest at what Follica found.

If it's any comfort, these Follica and Follica-esque projects seem to move at a faster pace than stemcell-trials. It was only a couple of months ago, when Intercytex dissapointed, that nothing seemed to be on the horizon. All of a sudden there's 2-3 companies materializing from seemingly nowhere.

In the meantime, there's always this homebrew stuff to discuss while twiddling our thumbs.

EDIT: Spoke too soon; the article says trials for hairloss starts in late 2008. Hopefully the WnT-proteins and whatever else they're using are of a similar category as Follica. Then we'll have two companies racing to commercialize a treatment, both without need of FDA approval. If anything, this will (hopefully) put pressure on both contestants.

 

[ross007]

this is very good news. hopefully both will start trails late this year. untill then. good work orin for looking in to this

 

[Orin]

If anyone was wondering, I snagged a photo of the hair that started to grow from lithium and dermabrasion. Actually, what really got most of it to grow, was a very small infection when I used an unsterile needle. I've talked about it before, and I can't really explain it. Perhaps the wound-area was just a good concoction of hair-generating cells.

What's most interesting is that while the results are pretty so-so, the actual hair seem to spring up *around* the wound area. Not so much inside of it. And most of them towards the edge that's closest to the hairline. I'm guessing the scalp-skin kinda knows where hair goes and where it does not, which is good I guess. It should make the problem of accidently butchering up your hairline less important, if it auto-corrects so to speak.

Anyway, it's a horrible picture-quality, but I tried to catch the light off of it. The new hair is noticably shorter than the rest, so that's the only way to really differentiate them. As you can see (hopefully), together with the re-awakened hair and the "new" (I'm not sure if they're *actually* new) hair that seem to grow in very concentrated tufts of hair (one of them you can see, it's paralell to my pinky finger), I'd say it's all about 40-50 hair.

It's not terrible for a one-run thing. Hopefully I can redo it a couple of times and get equal amounts each time.





EDIT: I forgot to say, this whole temple and hairline-area used to be all but bald, and the actual hairline fairly defined in it's V-shape. All of this single-growth and tufts of hair is due to continuous needling and the one-time dermabrasion/lithium treatment. I do nothing else than take propecia/dutasteride. I actually quit taking dutasteride ( I can no longer afford it/justify its price in relation to the effect), which gave me pretty ok results about half a year ago, so that I can still get regrowth with only measly propecia, which I have never gotten *any* regrowth with, is pretty significant. Here's hoping the hairline reflects what's happening to the rest of the scalp, which I cannot see.

 

[goata007]

Orin, can you post a link to a higher resolution image.