folligen and propecia

[jblig]

Just looking through old posts to check out peoples thoughts on folligen...but I still have a question: would it be of benefit for me to use it while im only using propecia and nizoral...does it have any other benefits other than scalp conditioning? I know the site claims it promotes regrowth but has anyone experienced this? thanks for your advice......later

 

[mediatech]

Just looking through old posts to check out peoples thoughts on folligen...but I still have a question: would it be of benefit for me to use it while im only using propecia and nizoral...does it have any other benefits other than scalp conditioning? I know the site claims it promotes regrowth but has anyone experienced this? thanks for your advice......later

Yeah, I have had a lot of regrowth in just 3 months time. Been using a heavy dosage of Folligen, Emu Oil and Super Cop so my results may not be typical. I have learned to put up with a bit of pain too. This stuff stings but you build a tolerance over time. GHK copper peptides work on several levels including blocking DHT. It's traditionally used for wound healing and skin repair.

I go through a 3 month supply of Folligen every 2-3 weeks. My total cost per month is around 140.00. Once I get the desired results I'll go to a maintenance dosage.

 

[Guest]

What is Super Cop??

 

[Matgallis]

how do you afford 140.00 a month??? :shock:

 

[mediatech]

What is Super Cop??

Super Cop is the strongest copper peptide cream Skin Biology offers. It's generally used for scar reduction but I use it to erase lines and skin sag that is associated with aging. Works good on hair too but stings like a b***.

http://www.scar-reduction.com/supercop.html
http://www.scar-reduction.com/

 

[mediatech]

how do you afford 140.00 a month??? :shock:

It's a lot cheaper than hair transplants

 

[Guest]

What is Super Cop??

Super Cop is the strongest copper peptide cream Skin Biology offers. It's generally used for scar reduction but I use it to erase lines and skin sag that is associated with aging. Works good on hair too but stings like a b***.

http://www.scar-reduction.com/supercop.html
http://www.scar-reduction.com/

Ok. got it. I used an earlier version on my face.

Good stuff!

 

[Bryan]

GHK copper peptides work on several levels including blocking DHT.

Please note that Folligen and Super Cop don't use GHK copper peptides (you might be confusing them with Tricomin). They use that same shotgun approach of mixing copper chloride with soy protein. It's what I fondly refer to as the "Peptide Smorgasbord"!

Also, I doubt that those peptides inhibit 5a-reductase to any significant extent (which is what I imagine you meant).

Bryan

 

[mediatech]

GHK copper peptides work on several levels including blocking DHT.

Please note that Folligen and Super Cop don't use GHK copper peptides (you might be confusing them with Tricomin). They use that same shotgun approach of mixing copper chloride with soy protein. It's what I fondly refer to as the "Peptide Smorgasbord"!

Also, I doubt that those peptides inhibit 5a-reductase to any significant extent (which is what I imagine you meant).

Bryan

So what's growing my hair back and erasing my age lines? The Emu Oil? I believe there is more to Dr. Pickart's patents than simply mixing copper chloride with soy protein.

Dr. Pickart who is responsible for Folligen and Super Cop also invented the Copper-Peptide technology that produced Tricomin and GraftCyte sold by http://procyte.com

Dr. Pickart was also the principal founder of Procyte Corporation and former President, Chairman & Scientific Director of ProCyte.

http://www.skinbio.com/investor.html

Dr. Pickart's US patents on tissue regeneration are assigned to Skin Biology, Inc. and ProCyte Corporation. I doubt he would create a "Peptide Smorgasbord" to compete with his earlier patents.

http://www.skinbio.com/patent.htm

Here's an interview:

http://www.regrowth.com/hair_loss_inter ... erview.cfm

Is Copper Better Than Propecia® for Blocking DHT Production?

Recent research indicates that the DHT that harms hair follicles comes from the the skin's sebocytes and sweat glands (sebaceous glands). (Chen et al 1996) 5 alpha-Reductase, the enzyme system that converts testosterone into DHT occurs in two enzyme forms. The type 1 represents the 'cutaneous type'; it is located primarily in the skin's sebocytes but also in epidermal and follicular keratinocytes, dermal papilla cells and sweat glands as well as in fibroblasts. The type 2 is located mainly in the seminal vesicles, prostate and in the inner root sheath of the hair follicle.

Propecia® (Finasteride), which has a higher affinity for the type 2 form, is best suited for for controlling prostate enlargement. It also must be administered by pills that spread the drug throughout the body.

Copper ion in the skin is more effective in inhibiting the type 1 form which is primarily producing the DHT that damages follicles and can be administered locally to the skin. Sugimoto et al (Sugimito 1995) found that copper ion is a potent inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase, inhibiting both types of 5-alpha reductase (both type 1 and type 2) that produce DHT and is the only metal to do so. Copper ion inhibits (50% reduction in activity) type 1 alpha reductase at 1.9 micromolar (0.12 micrograms copper ion per milliliter) and type 2 alpha reductase at 19.2 microM (1.2 micrograms copper ion per milliliter). No other metal has these effects.

The application of copper-peptides may provide sufficient copper ion into the hair follicle area to block DHT production in the scalp. Metabolically active copper ion (that is, copper ion free to block 5-alpha reductase) in the human body exists at about 1 microgram per milliliter in the blood and less in the skin. While the uptake of ionic copper from copper-peptides applied to the scalp is very low, human experiments by Prof. John Sorenson (University of Arkansas) have found that they can raise copper ion levels in the skin to the effective level of 1 microgram per milliliter.

 

[Bryan]

So what's growing my hair back and erasing my age lines? The Emu Oil?

I would _hope_ that it's the Folligen that's growing your hair back!

You seem to think that I'm criticizing Folligen or Dr. Pickart in some way. I am not. I'm just having a little fun with the way that his current products are made! :wink:

I believe there is more to Dr. Pickart's patents than simply mixing copper chloride with soy protein.

There may be "more to his patents" than just that, but I can assure you that that's exactly how he produces his copper peptides in Folligen and Super Cop: he adds copper chloride to hydrolized soy proteins, and lets the copper ions bind randomly with the various peptide fragments that are formed from the breakdown. It's all random and unpredictable, leading to my humorous expression "Peptide Smorgasbord"!

Hmmm....I'm wondering if Dr. Pickart would be willing to buy that name from me, and trademark it for Folligen!

Dr. Pickart who is responsible for Folligen and Super Cop also invented the Copper-Peptide technology that produced Tricomin and GraftCyte sold by http://procyte.com

Oh, yes. I was already aware of that.

Dr. Pickart was also the principal founder of Procyte Corporation and former President, Chairman & Scientific Director of ProCyte.

Oh, yes. I was already aware of that.

Dr. Pickart's US patents on tissue regeneration are assigned to Skin Biology, Inc. and ProCyte Corporation. I doubt he would create a "Peptide Smorgasbord" to compete with his earlier patents.

But that's EXACTLY what he did.

BTW, that material about the theoretical inhibition of 5a-reductase by copper ions has been posted and discussed several times over the years. I stand by what I said: I don't think applying copper peptides is going to have any significant effect in that regard.

Bryan

 

[mediatech]

You seem to think that I'm criticizing Folligen or Dr. Pickart in some way. I am not. I'm just having a little fun with the way that his current products are made! :wink:

No, I'm just a little dismayed that this method of production produces a peptide that holds up better under salicylic acid than the previous patents ProCyte holds. I'm also amazed that the end product works so well for such a simple method of production. I need to buy some lab equipment!

There may be "more to his patents" than just that, but I can assure you that that's exactly how he produces his copper peptides in Folligen and Super Cop: he adds copper chloride to hydrolized soy proteins, and lets the copper ions bind randomly with the various peptide fragments that are formed from the breakdown. It's all random and unpredictable, leading to my humorous expression "Peptide Smorgasbord"!

So what happens next? Does he control the reaction in some way to to produce a patentable product? If so what is the process that makes his patents hold up? Could I produce this stuff in my basement and save money

Where did you learn about how Dr. Pickart's peptides are produced? Does ProCyte use similar methods?

 

[mediatech]

Interesting:

http://www.skinbiology.com/aboutunscien ... ripts.html
http://www.skinbiology.com/comparingcopperpeptides.html

Note: Skin Biology's Super Cop is very blue in color...

 

[Guest]

Interesting:

http://www.skinbiology.com/aboutunscien ... ripts.html
http://www.skinbiology.com/comparingcopperpeptides.html

Not being a chemist, I am WAY out of my league. Having said that, I have been using skin biology products for going on 10 yrs and found them to be quite effective indeed.

So, experience has me sticking with Dr. Pickart. Good stuff.

:lol:

 

[Bryan]

There may be "more to his patents" than just that, but I can assure you that that's exactly how he produces his copper peptides in Folligen and Super Cop: he adds copper chloride to hydrolized soy proteins, and lets the copper ions bind randomly with the various peptide fragments that are formed from the breakdown. It's all random and unpredictable, leading to my humorous expression "Peptide Smorgasbord"!

So what happens next? Does he control the reaction in some way to to produce a patentable product? If so what is the process that makes his patents hold up?

I believe it's simply the process itself (mixing copper salts with soy proteins to form copper peptides) which he has patented, although I could be wrong about that.

Could I produce this stuff in my basement and save money

Sure, if you want to go to all the trouble!

Where did you learn about how Dr. Pickart's peptides are produced?

Oh, we discussed this a long time ago over on alt.baldspot. I don't remember exactly how the information first leaked out, but I do remember that there were various interesting dialogues between Drs. Pickart and Proctor, along with email questions and answers from ProCyte and Skin Biology, etc. etc. We pieced the information together somehow.

Does ProCyte use similar methods?

They use a specific copper-peptide, so they necessarily have to formulate the compound directly.

Bryan

 

[mediatech]

Oh, we discussed this a long time ago over on alt.baldspot. I don't remember exactly how the information first leaked out, but I do remember that there were various interesting dialogues between Drs. Pickart and Proctor, along with email questions and answers from ProCyte and Skin Biology, etc. etc. We pieced the information together somehow.

Does ProCyte use similar methods?

They use a specific copper-peptide, so they necessarily have to formulate the compound directly.

Bryan

Are you sure about the context of these discussions? How long has it been since they were leaked? Can you point to some archive or reference to these discussions?

What I don't get is why my sister is not getting the same results from the Neova line (ProCyte) as I am from Super Cop? She's been using Neova as prescribed by her dermatologist for the past year. I've only been using Super Cop for 3 1/2 months an I have less fine lines around the neck and eye area than she does... and she's 2 years younger.

I'm not saying Neova doesn't work it just takes longer to produce visible results. The Neutrogena line did almost nothing for me after 2 months of use.

Is it possible that Dr. Pickart's technique is producing a better peptide? Or maybe a more concentrated peptide? Anyway, it's a lot cheaper than Neova.

Maybe I should call Skin Biology to clear this up with an official response? Dr. Pickart answers a lot of public questions. I've spoken with him at length a few times.

 

[Bryan]

Are you sure about the context of these discussions?

I'm not sure about the context of YOUR question!

Do you still doubt what I said about the way he gets his copper peptides?? It's pretty clear, even from what he said in those very links that YOU posted!

How long has it been since they were leaked? Can you point to some archive or reference to these discussions?

That was a few years ago. Since it was on alt.baldspot, you could probably find those posts by searching Google (the newsgroup version of it, which used to be known as Deja News). If you search on the words "SOD Pickart Proctor", you could probably find the small exchange of posts Pickart and Proctor had over whether or not Pickart was violating Proctor's SOD patent! That was a MOST interesting discussion!

Is it possible that Dr. Pickart's technique is producing a better peptide? Or maybe a more concentrated peptide?

Yeah, that's an interesting question...who knows? Maybe Pickart's "'shotgun" approach is in fact better than the specific GHK peptide that ProCyte uses. Maybe in some cases, quantity really is better than quality!

Bryan

 

[mediatech]

Yeah, that's an interesting question...who knows? Maybe Pickart's "'shotgun" approach is in fact better than the specific GHK peptide that ProCyte uses. Maybe in some cases, quantity really is better than quality!

Bryan

That settles it... I'm going to stock up on copper chloride to hydrolized soy proteins

 

[mediatech]

Found the thread at Google regarding Dr. Pickart's formulation of copper peptides.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hair loss=en&l ... 26rnum%3D5

Is it possible Dr. Pickart has isolated strains of glycyl-L-histidyl-L-lysine peptide complexes from his peptide smorgasbord superior to ProCyte's? Seems there are quite a few variations of GHK copper patents. How do you explain these?

http://www.skinbio.com/patent.htm
http://www.suntanscience.com/uspatent5382431.html