For bryan and Foote.

[michael barry]

Bryan,

Wookiewannabe is proboably talking about Colin Jahoda moving that hair of his to his wife's arm. The hair grew like any other arm hair and had to be marked. Actually Ive read of eyebrow transplants essentially proving the same thing........if you move head hair to the body, it will grow like the surrounding body hair. However, of course, these werent alopecic head hairs being moved.


Body hair moved to the head has been documented by Dr. Ray Woods of Australia to grow over six inches in length. But the body hair width does not enlarge (from the pics Ive seen) as well as the patients hope for...........and they dont usually get that long. I think docs are telling patients to hope for around three times the length that the hair grew on the body for the first few years. It takes time for the moved body hair to lengthen its anagen phases long enough (to synchronize with the head hair anagen periods) to grow very long.

Docs do indeed conclude that hormonal issues in scalp skin drastically alter the length of phases for transplanted body hair to the scalp. Hairsite's hair transplant section is the place to read on this stuff.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

Wookiewannabe is proboably talking about Colin Jahoda moving that hair of his to his wife's arm. The hair grew like any other arm hair and had to be marked. Actually Ive read of eyebrow transplants essentially proving the same thing........if you move head hair to the body, it will grow like the surrounding body hair. However, of course, these werent alopecic head hairs being moved.

Which is the whole point, of course. But balding follicles continue to bald, even when transplanted to the arm. So what was Wookiewannabe trying to say?

Bryan

 

[wookster]

But balding follicles continue to bald, even when transplanted to the arm. So what was Wookiewannabe trying to say?

Bryan

Most of those "anectdotal" reports came from reading posts at the different hairloss forums. Obviously, if baldness is the result of a genetic clock within the follicle itself, then the bald head of average Joe is the antiquidated result of natural selection among our primate ancestors.

:hairy: :freaked: :hairy:

Of course, I wonder if those conclusive conclusions are as air tight as the "genetics theory" stipulates. ensativo:

 

[Bryan]

But balding follicles continue to bald, even when transplanted to the arm. So what was Wookiewannabe trying to say?

Bryan

Most of those "anectdotal" reports came from reading posts at the different hairloss forums.

And those anecdotal reports would be....WHAT, exactly?

Obviously, if baldness is the result of a genetic clock within the follicle itself, then the bald head of average Joe is the antiquidated result of natural selection among our primate ancestors.

"Antiquidated""? But yeah, I know what you mean. I think you're quite correct.

Of course, I wonder if those conclusive conclusions are as air tight as the "genetics theory" stipulates. ensativo:

Why do you wonder about that? What evidence is there to the contrary?

Bryan

 

[wookster]

And those anecdotal reports would be....WHAT, exactly?

They could quite possibly be a load of BS, being the forum banter that they were :hairy:

Of course, I wonder if those conclusive conclusions are as air tight as the "genetics theory" stipulates. ensativo:

Why do you wonder about that? What evidence is there to the contrary?

Bryan

Well I trust Einstein's theory of relativity much more than the current male pattern baldness theory of "hair loss". There are still too many unanswered questions with the genetics theory.

 

[Bryan]

And those anecdotal reports would be....WHAT, exactly?

They could quite possibly be a load of BS, being the forum banter that they were :hairy:

You don't wanna tell me what they are?

Well I trust Einstein's theory of relativity much more than the current male pattern baldness theory of "hair loss". There are still too many unanswered questions with the genetics theory.

Well, sure. There are lots of unanswered questions in ALL areas of medicine, including this one. But the evidence for the basic assumptions of the "genetics theory" (if that's what you want to call it) seems overwhelming. Do you actually BELIEVE Stephen's own goofy theory?

Bryan

 

[wookster]

You don't wanna tell me what they are?

they were basically forum discussors stating that a balding scalp follicle transplanted to the arm will grow like other arm hairs.

The mechanics/hydraulics approach in Mr. Foote's theory is very plausible but I don't have enough information to believe in it. :hairy:

 

[Bryan]

they were basically forum discussors stating that a balding scalp follicle transplanted to the arm will grow like other arm hairs.

Don't they know about the Nordstrom study which has been discussed up one side and down the other on this and other sites?? That clearly showed that balding scalp follicles do NOT grow like other arm hairs when transplanted to the arm, but keep on balding right on schedule. Are you not familiar with that study??

The mechanics/hydraulics approach in Mr. Foote's theory is very plausible but I don't have enough information to believe in it. :hairy:

"PLAUSIBLE"????? After all the evidence I've presented here that blows it out of the water, including the Nordstrom study that I mentioned above??

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

The Nordstrom Study that you posted way back when was the best piece of evidence of a Hair Cycle Clock residing inside the follicle itself.

The 4mm plug taken from bald areas and put on the arm stayed bald.

The 4mm plug taken from one inch behind the already receeding hairline had some hair in 12 months, but less at the later date, and even less at 21 months. I think it went from 12 hairs to 4 over that time.


The 4mm plug from the donor area had only a one hair difference in 21 months time on the patch of arm it was moved to.


Stephen never really explained this according to my satisfaction other than saying that the experiment was long enough. Im assuming that he thought an edema would occur and thin out the plugs on the arm in the infamous "donut" shape or something.


The fact that the second set continued to thin though on the ARM, a place where no edema was occuring for sure, is titanic in its reprecussions for the alternate theory. If the donor area plug did thin at all over many years, it would HAVE TO BE hypoxia.....................no edema on a forearm.

 

[Bryan]

The Nordstrom Study that you posted way back when was the best piece of evidence of a Hair Cycle Clock residing inside the follicle itself.

I agree. For anyone who isn't satisfied with just the thousands of successful hair transplants that are done every year, there's also the Nordstrom study, which demonstrates the reverse case: balding follicles continue to bald, even when transplanted into other areas that wouldn't normally lose hair. What more could one want as a demonstration of "donor dominance"?

Stephen never really explained this according to my satisfaction...

All Stephen could do was hypothesize another of his silly excuses in a feeble attempt to explain it. He now admits that donor dominance is preserved in ALL hair transplantation experiments, although (according to him) it doesn't have anything to do with characteristics residing within the follicle itself. At the moment I forget exactly how he tries to explain it, but it's always an extremely ad hoc explanation which I think very few people would find credible. That's how a great many of his other explanations and excuses seem, too, when you get right down to it: very ad hoc.

Bryan

 

[wookster]

"Transplants from balding and hairy androgenetic
alopecia scalp regrow hair comparably well on
immunodeficient mice"

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/pdf/transpl ... _scalp.pdf

This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of pattern alopecia can
quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same individual

Has this already been posted?

 

[Bryan]

Has this already been posted?

Jesus Christ, it's already been discussed ad nauseum right here in this very same thread! Haven't you read through the whole thing??

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

Wookie,
Ive read in an article recently, (I read so many that I cant remember where off the top of my head) that scientists are beginning to look at baldness as an auto-immune disorder.

See if you follow me. We know male hormones slow hair growth. However, in experiments like Bryan has posted, the slowing of growth isnt as drammatic as you might expect. Protien synthesis in a 14 day study of WHOLE hair follicles was only slowed 23% without an androgen receptor blocker to save them. DNA/RNA activity was 12% lessened.

Cyclosporin, the organ-rejection drug that is a powerful IMMUNOSUPPRESSANT, is 80% effective in treating hairloss according to Dr. Loren Pickart's website. Pickart invented Folligen, and was the Doctor that came up with Tricomin also. American Crew Copper peptides are also based on his work as well as GraftCyte peptides that hair transplant clinics use to speed healing after surgeries. Hes a molecular biologists that has patented a great many copper peptide indications for their wound healing activities. Dr. Peter Proctor, a hairloss researcher for 20 years, believes many of the same things you can find on Dr. Pickart's website, skinbio.com.

What they both believe is namely this: Its the damage AROUND the follicle that does it in more than male hormone. Male hormone isnt good for most mens hair, but men with strong baldness genes see the immune system attack the hair as it apparently sees it as a foreign body. Extra immune cells cluster around the base of the dermal papilla, seemingly "marking" it for the immune system to attack. Lymphocytic "streamers" form under the follicle, get hard and crusty in the fluid, and push up on the follicle....toward the surface. The connective tissue sheath around the follicle's dermal papilla sees the collagen in it thicken and harden, restricting the follicle's expasion into a good, thick dermal papilla in early anagen phase. Prohibiting it from widening enough for the keratinocytes to produce a good thick hair shaft. Superoxides and other chemical growth inhibtiors are sent AT the follicle by the immune system. This is NOT speculation. These are phenomena seen by Dr. Hideo Uno and described in his $160 book, THE HISTOPATHOLOGY OF HAIR LOSS.

If you look in the photo gallery on this website and view Bryan's two year Prox-N pictures, you'll see his hair got more youthful and thicker using Prox N and Nano shampoo ALONE with no anti-androgen. (Just think of how well he'd done if he used dutasteride and spironolactone topically with it).?

After a long time of chronic inflammation around the follicle from the immune attack.......the follicle is somehow "scarred" and some cellular material therein seems damaged. So its really hard for it to re-enlarge.


I hope you keep up with the HM research though man. Things are lookin' way up there. Im hopine that in a few years, we'll all go to a clinic and get our hair really back as it was when we were teenagers. This is the near term hope for baldness in my opinion. Bryan may feel different, but the genetic process is so complicated, and fighting your own immune system is so hard once the process starts, that regaining a signifigant amount of hair is hard. However, with whats agailable now.............if you use a DHT inhibitor, a receptor blocker, and a SOD /copper peptide product........I think ya'd keep what you had for a very long time.

 

[hairhaircomeagain]

mike...whatever you have written makes so much sense. With that said, I am sure you have done a lot of reserach to get this info. So, what are the things that we can do ( diet/supplemets ) etc. wise to minimise auto-immunity. I mean along with all the medications minimizing auto-immunity is sure gonna help...maybe the max or is there no way to reduce it ?

 

[wookster]

Has this already been posted?

Jesus Christ, it's already been discussed ad nauseum right here in this very same thread! Haven't you read through the whole thing??

Bryan

:freaked: :freaked:

So far, I have only read small bits and pieces of this gigantic discussion. Ok I will read THE WHOLE THREAD :hairy:

 

[powersam]

hehe i kinda thought bryan was being sarcastic then, but you never know. it is 48 pages long after all

 

[Bryan]

hehe i kinda thought bryan was being sarcastic then, but you never know. it is 48 pages long after all

Yeah, but Stephen and I were just discussing that study again very recently. And "wookie" comes along and asks if it's ever been posted. That was a little annoying! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Cyclosporin, the organ-rejection drug that is a powerful IMMUNOSUPPRESSANT, is 80% effective in treating hairloss according to Dr. Loren Pickart's website.

I do want to remind everybody of that case study that was published in a medical journal, which I posted word-for-word on HLH in the past. It was about a man with male pattern baldness who was taking LARGE amounts of oral cyclosporin for another condition, but it had no effect at all on his balding. It just goes to show that despite the study with human hair follicles transplanted onto immunodeficient mice, male pattern baldness remains a very complicated problem, with rather conflicting results from one experiment to another. There are no clear, easy answers.

Bryan

 

[michael barry]

Hairhaircomeagain,

Ive seen Dr. Peter Proctor advise some folks to try to counteract baldness for the time being on all fronts. That would be to cut DHT, inhibit androgen receptors, repair tissue/counteract the immune response, fight inflammation, use a growth stimulant.

A life extension and bodybuilding writer that is well-known named Will Brink, has stated that using proxiphen, nizoral a couple of times a week and propecia is proboably about the best one could do for the time being. He is hoping for a really effective long-lasting receptor blocker like RU58841 to get approved here to add to that.

Problem is (for me anyway) proxiphen is a hundred damned bucks a month. But all it is is sprio/minoxidil/phenytoin (epilepsy drug that grows hair for some reason) and prox-N.

Prox-N can be had for 25 a month, minoxidil for 6 bucks, and spironolactone at Genhair.com for about 15. If you add propecia bought generically in the form of proscar..................that would be fifty five or so bucks, about the cost of prescript propecia for an effective receptor blocker twice a day, growth stimulant and anti-collagen agent in minoxidil, a superoxide dismutase, skin-remodeling copper peptide that should help counteract the immuno attack some in prox-n, and a type two alpha five reductase inhibitor in finasteride, and an anti-inflammatory with some growth stimulating properties and apparently weak anti-androgen activity in the ketoconazale shampoo, nizoral.

Folligen, of which a big-bottle that might last you nearly a year if applied every other night like Pickart advises, is only forty bucks if Prox-N is too pricey. It does not have the other SOD's other than the copper peptides themselves, however. The ingredients otherwise were about the same (Ive checked). The other SOD/Copper peptide products are Tricomin, American Crew Revitalising serum/spray, and Nanosal (new one). There is also Graftcyte out there still I think.

Ive considered (and bought a months supply of a bunch of things to see if I felt like they'd work). Fluridil is intriguing, but it gets scewed up by other topicals and degenerates in water. Revivogen, which I tested on a part of my arm to see if its anti-androgenic activity could reduce the body hair on the arm, impressed me in the fact that it did so quite well (even in spite of the fact that it has proanthocyanidrins (a growth stimulant) therein. That stuff can be had for less than thirty a month, and gives DHT inhibiton of type one and two, plus a growth stimulant. I tried Crinagen on the other wrist, and it didnt do anything except give me a bit of a rash.


I guess in the area of whats proven.....if you put a gun to me and said what should work.....that would be 1/Propecia or Dutasteride if youre
adventurous
2/spironolactone 2X a day applied with
3/Prox-N
4/minoxidil at least once a day
5/Nizoral 2X a week, possibly
mixed once with a bit of T-Sal
shampoo also


Other cheaper anti-inflammatory shampoos are a Salycic acid shampoo from the drug store brand, a Coal Tar shampoo like T-Gel or drug store brand, or a pyrithone zinc ant-dandruff shampoo like some Head and Shoulders brand instead of Nizoral if youre on a budget.




Another growth stimulant other than minoxidil that reportedly is good are proanthocyandrins which are almost assuredly found in apple cider vinegar that you could use in a shampoo pre-soak for a few minutes before the shower. I understand that this helps drive toxins out of the scalp or some such also. There is a company that makes spray-on proanthocyandrins and one study compared them favorably to minoxidil, but minoxidil has been proven over and over to grow hair. Research it yourself. Apple Cider Vinegar though, if you have no growth stimulant in your regimine, is EXTREMELY cheap. A bottle cost about a dollar for a cola-sized container. Apparenlty that stuff is used in cooking.





You know hairhaircomeagain,
When you think about it, the difference in those of us who lose our hair isnt we have more DHT (although we might have a bit more skin testosterone), or that ALL of us necessarily have more androgen receptors (the variant of the androgen receptor gene that 98.6 percent of bald men have is shared by 76 percent of non-bald men too). Its some chemical signals that happen in the dermal papilla when enough DHT (perhaps some other male hormones too) gets transcripted in our androgen receptors. What goes on in the papilla, is what really starts the whole damned thing. We know that instead of growth factors (mitogens), the papilla in us balding guys sends out antigens (inhibitors) to the rest of the follicle cells. Apparently the immune system senses this struggling micor organ (the hair unit) isnt part of you that is supposed to be there and attempts to kill it.

Im hoping some "smart" topicals can be created to nix this, but in truth cloning will proboably be there before then. I just got a letter back from Alpecin cosmetic that made me think of this. I asked them if they thought caffeine might interefere with androgen receptors. They told me no, and that their product worked by increasing the activity of the energy-messenger cAMP. They claim they have confirmed this in clinical trial biopsies of living hair organs (about 600 hairs in an experiment), and that they are going to get this published by the International Journal of Dermatology. Now Alpecin may very well be junk, BUT this is the kind of thing I hope to see in the future..............a shampoo or quick after shower liquid, that can get in the papilla and contradict the negative instructions being sent out to the rest of the follicle. That we we wouldnt have to scew with our hormones at all. You know when you think about it, even if you just use Revivogen and "block" the activity of scalp alpha five reductase type 2 found in the follicle and type 1 found in the sebaceous glands, and sebocytes.............................youre still "screwin" with your hormones. The Testosterone that DIDNT get changed into DHT like it would have, is coursin' through your veins when it wouldnt have been. Its not the androgens in a way.............its what the papilla does that starts this process in all proboability. Of course one week from now someone is gonna do a study proving that DHT binds to receptors in some freakish pattern and THAT sets off the immuno response making a fool out of my thinking out loud, but thats what Im goin with today.


What Bryan stated about the complexity of baldness is very true. Lotta bald scientist to research this gunk in their spare time, havent cured it yet. It sucks, dammit.

 

[Aplunk1]

I guess in the area of whats proven.....if you put a gun to me and said what should work.....that would be 1/Propecia or Dutasteride if youre
adventurous
2/spironolactone 2X a day applied with
3/Prox-N
4/minoxidil at least once a day
5/Nizoral 2X a week, possibly
mixed once with a bit of T-Sal
shampoo also

Thank you, Michael. I always enjoy reading your posts.

Do you think that copper peptides are "proven" enough to belong into the aforementioned regimen?

In essense,
I rely on:

1) Dutasteride
2) Minoxidil (2x)
3) Liquid spironolactone (1x) and Cream spironolactone (2x)
4) Nizoral (2-3x weekly)
5) Some copper peptides.

This regimen is killing my wallet... however.

You mentioned Folligen... Do you think that is comparable to Tricomin?

I'm glad that we have some experts commenting on viable hairloss regimens.