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[theotherusero]

Shh agonist is most crucial I believe for neogenesis. Any one component by itself isn't enough though. You need to target every pathway. The changes that I made leading up to this in the last five weeks was to increase my needling depth to 1.5mm, take SAG at a low dose for 7-10 days after wounding, added SW033291 to increase PGE2, and added BIM-I the first week after wounding. One or all of those changes seems to be the final piece that I needed.

@pegasus2 congrats!! You are an inspiration!

Could you explain a bit more about your protocol?
What do you think are the most useful?
Which are the safer to take?

This is what I see in your regimen:

ANTIANDROGEN:
O+T dutasteride
RU58841
Why two antiandrogen?
O MNX
microneedling monthly
WNT:
WAY-316606 (SFRP1)
CHIR99021 (DKK1)
PGE2 (GSK3)
PG:
SW033291
Dinoprost
HEDGEHOG SIGNALING PATHWAY:
SAG
Unfortunately this has substantial risk, right?
SPIROLACTONES:
Eplerenone
ESTROGEN:
40mg estriol
???:
erlotinib
Epitalon
Rapamycin
BIM-I/bisindolylmaleimide

 

[pegasus2]

@pegasus2 congrats!! You are an inspiration!

Could you explain a bit more about your protocol?
What do you think are the most useful?
Which are the safer to take?

This is what I see in your regimen:

ANTIANDROGEN:
O+T dutasteride
RU58841
Why two antiandrogen?
O MNX
microneedling monthly
WNT:
WAY-316606 (SFRP1)
CHIR99021 (DKK1)
PGE2 (GSK3)
PG:
SW033291
Dinoprost
HEDGEHOG SIGNALING PATHWAY:
SAG
Unfortunately this has substantial risk, right?
SPIROLACTONES:
Eplerenone
ESTROGEN:
40mg estriol
???:
erlotinib
Epitalon
Rapamycin
BIM-I/bisindolylmaleimide

I have cut out everything that isn't important. Everything I'm on is an integral part of the regimen, and works synergistically with the others. For example, SW keeps PGE2 and dinoprost from being inactivated, and rapamycin inhibits mTOR which hopefully prevents the Wnt agonists from stressing stem cells. I have not begun CHIR99021 or dinoprost yet, I'm still waiting on those in the mail. Maybe I could cut out erlotinib as long as I'm on BIM-I, or vice versa. Epitalon is just a series of 10-20 injections twice a year. I'm also injecting TB-500, BPC-157, thymalin, and soon to be GHK-Cu. Remapping the scalp skin is half the battle. Unless you're transplanting a follicle from the back of the head with its own healthy tissue then it's going to be tough to grow hairs in a fibrotic scalp.

Hh signalling pathway carries unknown risks. There are lots of things that upregulate shh and have been shown to be safe. None of those upregulate it as much as SAG. It could be dangerous, especially if used continuously or if you have cancer. If you have cancer avoid any type of Wnt or Hh agonist. You should definitely get a good check up and run things by your doctor before getting on any regimen that's not OTC. Make sure you don't have heart issues before getting on things like MNX or eplerenone, and no cancer before getting on PGE2 or estrogen. For a young and healthy individual the only real question mark to me is SAG. Topical PGE2 should be safe medium-term, but long-term I wonder if there could be neurological effects if trace amounts are getting to the brain. You want to make sure not to overdose on anything of course, or it could all be dangerous.

CHIR99021 is actually a GSK3b inhibitor, and PGE2 does many things, only one of which is GSK3 phosphorylation. I'm on two anti-androgens because dutasteride only inhibits half of scalp DHT and doesn't block testosterone, which is fine for stopping hair loss, but to get regrowth you want to nuke androgens in the scalp.

If I was going to cut my regimen to the bare bones for simplicity and/or finances, I would cut out the WAY, CHIR, erlotinib, the peptides(epitalon, tb-500, etc.), and maybe dinoprost, although there's some evidence that it works synergistically with PGE2 even though I haven't tried it yet.

 

[The_Dragon]

Your hair loss pattern is very similar to mine; Hairline itself is ok but mid scalp is not. Impressive regrowth, it has given me some hope! I'm currently on RU and microneedling, and have spironolactone & minoxidil (+ azelaic acid & tretinoin) coming in post shortly. finasteride (oral and topical) gave me sides but hoping to try topical liposomal duta and CB. I have not explored the PGE2 route yet, thanks for the details!

Where do you get your supplies from?

 

[The_Dragon]

Mostly ADC and Wuhan Hengheda. If finasteride gave you sides you don't want to use oral spironolactone. That's the only thing that's given me sides. The dutasteride is a good addition that hopefully won't give you sides, but CB is superfluous in addition to RU. You only need one or the other.

ok thanks, haven't heard of ADC before. It's topical spironolactone (with copper peptides and retinol), heard mixed results but maybe this combination is effective. Yes RU is considered stronger AA than CB, but CB is at least going through extra trials and "seems" to have less side effects, which is what I'm looking for in long term use (this battle is forever). I have some side effects with RU even with low dosage (50mg) and as you are expected to increase the dosage after the effectiveness wears off over time, I am looking for alternatives in the meantime. It may be beneficial to top up CB dose with a bit of RU while the price is still quite high, but idk

 

[The_Dragon]

Copper peptides are good. I think they make a difference by themselves. ADC is alldaychemist.

That's good, and thank you will have a look

 

[dgadgdea]

I've been increasingly hearing about copper peptides but don't have no idea what they do. Do you have any info or studies you can share about their mechanism of action or effects on hair growth?

 

[pegasus2]

I've been increasingly hearing about copper peptides but don't have no idea what they do. Do you have any info or studies you can share about their mechanism of action or effects on hair growth?

The tripeptide-copper complex has been known to have effects on hair growth through various mechanisms including dermal fibroblast stimulation and increased expression of vascular endothelial growth factor. It is also known to decrease the secretion of transforming growth factor-β1 by dermal fibroblasts. In addition, it reduces the number of apoptotic dermal papilla cells, showing the elevated ratio of Bcl-2/Bax and the reduced levels of the cleaved forms of caspase-35. Surely, further studies are needed to evaluate the mechanism of ALAVAX for hair growth.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4969472/

 

[John Difool]

I cycle GHK-Cu 20 days on 10 days off subq 10mg in 1cc BAC. Peptides are blue so I may end up looking like a Smurf. I used to do scalp injections but switched to arms and belly since you mentioned it goes systemic.

 

[pegasus2]

That's the reason I stopped using Folligen. It's green and messy.

 

[John Difool]

With ASC-J9 my head looked like a yellow fluorescent marker.

 

[theotherusero]

@pegasus2 Digging around trying to understand what is Erlotinib, I found this paper that talks about the relation between Erlotinib and Ketoconazole
The effects of CYP3A4 inhibition on erlotinib pharmacokinetics: computer-based simulation (SimCYP) predicts in vivo metabolic inhibition
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18000659/

Ketoconazole caused an almost two-fold increase in erlotinib plasma area under the concentration curve and in maximum plasma concentration.

Is this useful?

 

[pegasus2]

@pegasus2 Digging around trying to understand what is Erlotinib, I found this paper that talks about the relation between Erlotinib and Ketoconazole
The effects of CYP3A4 inhibition on erlotinib pharmacokinetics: computer-based simulation (SimCYP) predicts in vivo metabolic inhibition
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18000659/

Ketoconazole caused an almost two-fold increase in erlotinib plasma area under the concentration curve and in maximum plasma concentration.

Is this useful?

You don't want to use oral keto with oral eplerenone or erlotinib. Topical keto should be fine. Also, I only use erlotinib on certain days after wounding.

 

[dgadgdea]

appreciate the info in this thread it's given me and future readers a lot of threads to pull.

One piece i can't find much relevant reading about is BIM-I / bisindolylmaleimide. What is the reasoning behind this, what's it do and how do you apply?

Thanks

 

[pegasus2]

appreciate the info in this thread it's given me and future readers a lot of threads to pull.

One piece i can't find much relevant reading about is BIM-I / bisindolylmaleimide. What is the reasoning behind this, what's it do and how do you apply?

Thanks

I use it for the first week after wounding. It's a PKCa/b inhibitor. It stops epidermal differentiation in the early stages of wound repair.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...y_to_restore_hair_regeneration_of_adult_cells

The biggest difference we observed is that adult cells quickly differentiate in culture. Compared with the newborn culture, in which epidermal differentiation genes become enriched at later stages (D7), many EDC genes start to be enriched from 6 h or day 1 in adult cultures (Fig. 6B and SI Appendix, Fig. S8F), which could be one of the main reasons that cells lose their competence to regenerate hairs and terminally differentiate.

 

[Sanchez1234]

Insane results Pegasus and really informing stuff. You're regime is unfortunately but not doable for me moneywise.

What top 7 of your regime are def. needed for this regrowth?

 

[John Difool]

at top 7 of your regime are def. needed for this regrowth?

Pegasus wrote on August 17:
If I was going to cut my regimen to the bare bones for simplicity and/or finances, I would cut out the WAY, CHIR, erlotinib, the peptides(epitalon, tb-500, etc.), and maybe dinoprost, although there's some evidence that it works synergistically with PGE2 even though I haven't tried it yet.

Do people even care reading previous posts?

 

[Armando Jose]

Here's a couple pics that somewhat show the level of cosmetic change on the right temple. The two spots at the bottom are cut out in the before picture, so I put arrows indicating their approximate position, and you can't see the spot at the top in the after pic so I circled its approximate location.

what time between images?

 

[Sanchez1234]

I have cut out everything that isn't important. Everything I'm on is an integral part of the regimen, and works synergistically with the others. For example, SW keeps PGE2 and dinoprost from being inactivated, and rapamycin inhibits mTOR which hopefully prevents the Wnt agonists from stressing stem cells. I have not begun CHIR99021 or dinoprost yet, I'm still waiting on those in the mail. Maybe I could cut out erlotinib as long as I'm on BIM-I, or vice versa. Epitalon is just a series of 10-20 injections twice a year. I'm also injecting TB-500, BPC-157, thymalin, and soon to be GHK-Cu. Remapping the scalp skin is half the battle. Unless you're transplanting a follicle from the back of the head with its own healthy tissue then it's going to be tough to grow hairs in a fibrotic scalp.

Hh signalling pathway carries unknown risks. There are lots of things that upregulate shh and have been shown to be safe. None of those upregulate it as much as SAG. It could be dangerous, especially if used continuously or if you have cancer. If you have cancer avoid any type of Wnt or Hh agonist. You should definitely get a good check up and run things by your doctor before getting on any regimen that's not OTC. Make sure you don't have heart issues before getting on things like MNX or eplerenone, and no cancer before getting on PGE2 or estrogen. For a young and healthy individual the only real question mark to me is SAG. Topical PGE2 should be safe medium-term, but long-term I wonder if there could be neurological effects if trace amounts are getting to the brain. You want to make sure not to overdose on anything of course, or it could all be dangerous.

CHIR99021 is actually a GSK3b inhibitor, and PGE2 does many things, only one of which is GSK3 phosphorylation. I'm on two anti-androgens because dutasteride only inhibits half of scalp DHT and doesn't block testosterone, which is fine for stopping hair loss, but to get regrowth you want to nuke androgens in the scalp.

If I was going to cut my regimen to the bare bones for simplicity and/or finances, I would cut out the WAY, CHIR, erlotinib, the peptides(epitalon, tb-500, etc.), and maybe dinoprost, although there's some evidence that it works synergistically with PGE2 even though I haven't tried it yet.

You state: "Remapping the scalp skin is half the battle" in relation to fibrosis.

Is microneedling the only thing you do that remaps the scalp skin?

 

[pegasus2]

Insane results Pegasus and really informing stuff. You're regime is unfortunately but not doable for me moneywise.

What top 7 of your regime are def. needed for this regrowth?

7 things.

Dutasteride, oral minoxidil, estriol, SAG, PGE2, SW033291, BIM I. Microneedling doesn't cost anything really after buying the device.

what time between images?

9-10 months.

You state: "Remapping the scalp skin is half the battle" in relation to fibrosis.

Is microneedling the only thing you do that remaps the scalp skin?

Eplerenone/spironolactone, estrogen, collagen.

 

[Sanchez1234]

Anybody reading this that is interested to copy some of this stuff and make a good alternative regime?