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Sean68 said:
EXACTLY! On all points.
hairloss at 24, I need you guys to help me fight it (pics)
- Thread starter James Cole
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EXACTLY! On all points.
WorldofWarcraft
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FairTaxNow said:
Why do you two keep paroting the fact that male pattern baldness is the "most proven" treatment for male pattern baldness?
Is that being done to somehow mask the fact that dutastride is a superior DHT blocker, and has been backed up with numerous scientific reports?
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WorldofWarcraft said:
WoW, I'm assuming you meant "the fact that finasteride is the "most proven"...."
But I'm not saying it's the most proven. I'm saying it's the most common internal DHT blocker and is readily available with plenty of choices. If he doesn't respond to finasteride like some people don't, whynot then go to dutasteride? Bottom line is just that I prefer not to say to somebody "don't do this, do this". If he comes to the conclusion himself that dutasteride is the better route than more power to him, but for a newbie that is simply going off our recommendations I wouldn't want to encourage an unorthodox approach. I wish more people were using dutasteride so we can see its effects vs. finasteride, but it's best to leave that to the vets/experts here who will choose on their on to go to dutasteride rather than start off the newbies there.
sphlanx2006
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wow said:
That does not change the fact that finasteride is the only treatment with PROVEN results in official and completed trials. These trials have proven that finasteride actually WORKS for a lot of people. The only reason to switch to dutasteride in my opinion is when you see that finasteride does not work for you.
To the original poster: I stongly suggest that you start immediately with the big3. If money is not an object, and if you think you care enough about your hair to cope with the fact you will be using minoxidil twice a day every day, then you can maximize your results.
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Give this man some Finasteride and Nizoral immediately!
James Cole
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Hey guys did some research and these are my thoughts...
I dont want to use finasteride, I mean I dont think I am going bald in any way and finasteride can really screw my hair for a long time (shedding and sides) sooo with my current state do you think I can get more thicker hair with this regimen:
Spectral DNC
Rogaine Foam
Nizoral shampoo and later Revita
MSM
I think I could achieve the results that I want with this (fuller, thicker hair) but what do you guys think?
I dont want to use finasteride, I mean I dont think I am going bald in any way and finasteride can really screw my hair for a long time (shedding and sides) sooo with my current state do you think I can get more thicker hair with this regimen:
Spectral DNC
Rogaine Foam
Nizoral shampoo and later Revita
MSM
I think I could achieve the results that I want with this (fuller, thicker hair) but what do you guys think?
Follically Challenged
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I think you're an idiot if you don't use a 5ar inhibitor if you're gonna use that regimen.
Have fun going bald.
Have fun going bald.
Follically Challenged
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If money is no object, I would *at least* include Proxiphen.
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sphlanx2006 said:
Well this is not true. Dutasteride went through phase II trials and grew more than hair than finasteride in the 6 month studies. Just because it didn't go through the costly phase III trials means nothing. Phase II is enough to show that it is more powerufl and more effective than finasteride. If that's not proof, I don't know what it is. Yes, it's true that finasteride is approved by the FDA for hair loss, and dutasteride isn't, but to deny that dutasteride is the more powerful and more effective medication is to deny the truth.
That said, most people are probably better off starting off on finasteride, due to the fact that it is easier to get a prescription for it and it does work at maintaining for 83% of people. Still, it would suck to be part of the 17% group for whom it doesn't maintain, and lose more hair, only to have to switch to dutasteride down the road, when you could have been on it from the beginning and kept that hair.
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James Cole said:
James,
Keep your mind open to finasteride as your thoughts/reasoning for NOT going off of finasteride might not be as rational as you think.
1.) Why does finasteride cause shedding? (I'm serious, I don't know why it does myself.
2.) Did you know that minoxidil is basically supposed to cause shedding to indicate it's efficacy?
3.) What are the side effects of finasteride and did you know that sides only occurred in 2% of those who were involved in its tests with a full 1mg dosage?
4.) Did you know that 0.25mg of finasteride is up to 90% as efficient as 1mg?
5.) Did you know that the 5ar enzyme production takes up to 7 days to go back to pre-finasteride dosage levels after 1 dosage, thereby making an every-other-day (EOD) regimen also effective and sometimes recommended?
I ruled out finasteride early on as you are now but the more I learned about it the more I realized that my reasonings were irrational. I also tossed finances into the mix but when you can get 10 full 1mg Dr. Reddy Finax pills for $5 that kinda gets tossed back into the irrational mix :wink:
What you suggested above is good though it lacks the Saw Palmetto/Beta Sitosterol that I also take (which is also cheap) which is supposed to be an anrogen receptor blocker. But you should not write off finasteride. In fact you probably should include that with the above items to start off on ASAP. You know, I will probably even attempt to chop the fourthed Finax pill into half again and start off at 0.125mg EOD for the first couple of weeks just to ease into the reduction of my DHT levels.
Good luck!
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And James Cole,
As for you, if you're 24 years old and already have a forehead that big(heading towards Norwood 3 if not there already), there's no doubt in my mind that you're going bald. You are going to regret not talking to your doctor about propecia. You likely have an aggressive form of male pattern baldness.
As for you, if you're 24 years old and already have a forehead that big(heading towards Norwood 3 if not there already), there's no doubt in my mind that you're going bald. You are going to regret not talking to your doctor about propecia. You likely have an aggressive form of male pattern baldness.
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FairTaxNow said:
Yeah but there are very few non-responders to dutasteride compared to the number of non-responders to finasteride. This is because of dutasteride's more complete inhibition of the type II enzyme.
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JayMan said:
I'll admit I don't know too much about dutasteride but it probably does sound like it will be determined to be more effective than finasteride is a few years down the road and perhaps will be the de facto standard DHT inhibitor over finasteride. My point in the context of my whole post was really just that dutasteride isn't the holy grail, while finasteride is garbage, to whomever was pushing dutasteride dutasteride dutasteride.
I think it'd be fair for the OP to know the facts on both and just make his own decision. I forgot about the succesful Phase II trials, so thanks for bringing that point up too. I'm also not one that puts ANY stock into the FDA and what they approve (based on how they operate, and being a big bureacratic corrupt branch of the federal gov't as well) but for a newbie it would just seem safer and more sense to start off on finasteride. If he decides to start off on dutasteride than more power to him, it'll give us one more person to see how well it works for re-growth
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FairTaxNow said:JayMan said:
I'll admit I don't know too much about dutasteride but it probably does sound like it will be determined to be more effective than finasteride is a few years down the road and perhaps will be the de facto standard DHT inhibitor over finasteride. My point in the context of my whole post was really just that dutasteride isn't the holy grail, while finasteride is garbage, to whomever was pushing dutasteride dutasteride dutasteride.
I think it'd be fair for the OP to know the facts on both and just make his own decision. I forgot about the succesful Phase II trials, so thanks for bringing that point up too. I'm also not one that puts ANY stock into the FDA and what they approve (based on how they operate, and being a big bureacratic corrupt branch of the federal gov't as well) but for a newbie it would just seem safer and more sense to start off on finasteride. If he decides to start off on dutasteride than more power to him, it'll give us one more person to see how well it works for re-growth
I'm not telling the original poster what to do. He has to make that decision with his doctor. I'm just sick of the lying and ignorance on here regarding dutasteride.
As for your comment about how it will be determined to be more effective in a few years down the road, well that's unlikely. Nothing will happen in a few years because dutasteride will NEVER be fda approved for hair loss. Glaxo decided that the phase III trials were too costly and they saw that propecia wasn't making that much money anyway. They also saw that the Indian generic makers were already counterfeiting cheap copies of their dutasteride.
We will probably never know any more than we know now, or any less.
Here's what we do know, FairTax:
- Type II DHT is the main culprit in male pattern baldness
1 mg of finasteride(Propecia) a day inhibits approx. 85% of type II DHT.
5 mg of finasteride(Proscar) a day inhibits approx. 90% of type II DHT.
0.5 mg of dutasteride(Avodart) a day inhibits approx. 98.5% of type II DHT.
In other words, dutasteride at the daily dose blocks 90% more DHT than Propecia and 80% more DHT than Proscar.
I do not think it is coincidental that the non-response rate for Propecia-and we have to be careful about how we define this, but let's define it as those people who continued to lose hair after 2 years on Propecia- is 17%. 83% of those in the studies AT LEAST maintained their hair on Propecia after 2 years. 83% is pretty close to the 85% number above, isn't it? It's my hunch that about 90% of people would maintain their hair after 2 years by taking 5 mg of finasteride(Proscar) every day, and about 98.5% of people would maintain their hair after 2 years by taking 0.5 mg of dutasteride(Avodart) every day.
It really makes sense when you consider that type II DHT is the main culprit in male pattern baldness. Also consider that dutasteride(Avodart) blocks 50% of type I DHT in the follicles at the daily dose. 50% of type I. Type I may play a small role in male pattern baldness so this is also beneficial.[/list]
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Jayman,
Thanks for posting those stats. You mentioned dutasteride reduced 90% more but isn't that rather ( (98.5 - 90) / 98.5 ) = 13.7% more DHT than propecia rather than the 90% more you mentioned? And respectively 8.6% more than Proscar?
You mentioned that it blocks 50% of Type I DHT, how much does propecia block of Type 1 DHT? What does Type I DHT contribute towards follicle degeneration as well?
You're doing a better job of the dutasteride sell than WoW I can say at least, got me a bit more interested too! I have quite a bit of finasteride that's should be arriving monday (if the mailman will knock this time: registered mail) so I pretty much can't make the switch at this point anyways. What are the rate of side effects with dutasteride and this can also be taken every other day and be almost as effective as every day correct? I believe dutasteride has a very long half-life or is it the same reason finasteride can be taken every other day? I know finasteride has a short half life but it just takes the 5AR enzyme quite a few days to start producing again. I thought I remember reading that dutasteride actually had a long half-life though.
I DO know that the seedooo guy who is getting married in 6 months should make the jump over to dutasteride since he's been on 1mg finasteride for a number of years and apparently has just maintained or slowed his hairloss.
Thanks for posting those stats. You mentioned dutasteride reduced 90% more but isn't that rather ( (98.5 - 90) / 98.5 ) = 13.7% more DHT than propecia rather than the 90% more you mentioned? And respectively 8.6% more than Proscar?
You mentioned that it blocks 50% of Type I DHT, how much does propecia block of Type 1 DHT? What does Type I DHT contribute towards follicle degeneration as well?
You're doing a better job of the dutasteride sell than WoW I can say at least, got me a bit more interested too! I have quite a bit of finasteride that's should be arriving monday (if the mailman will knock this time: registered mail) so I pretty much can't make the switch at this point anyways. What are the rate of side effects with dutasteride and this can also be taken every other day and be almost as effective as every day correct? I believe dutasteride has a very long half-life or is it the same reason finasteride can be taken every other day? I know finasteride has a short half life but it just takes the 5AR enzyme quite a few days to start producing again. I thought I remember reading that dutasteride actually had a long half-life though.
I DO know that the seedooo guy who is getting married in 6 months should make the jump over to dutasteride since he's been on 1mg finasteride for a number of years and apparently has just maintained or slowed his hairloss.
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FairTaxNow said:
Sorry I meant to say that it takes care of 90% of the remaining DHT that the finasteride doesn't basically. 98.5% compared to 90% or 85% may not seem like a huge difference, since they all seem like big numbers, but it really is a difference.
If you think of each percentage point as a DHT soldier carrying a bazooka aimed at your hair follicles, propecia takes care of 85 of the 100 total soldiers, so only 15 are left. Now 15 is obviously better than 100 attacking your hair, but it still leaves your hair vulnerable in the future. Now proscar takes care of 5 more of their soldiers that propecia couldn't, leaving only 10 remaining. But then avodart comes along and takes care of 9 of the 10 remaining soldiers, leaving only 1 of the 100 to damage your hair. Now, I don't know about you, but I'd rather have 1 gun pointed at me than 10 or 15 or 100.
But there are always risks of course, specifically risks to your "gun" in your pants. Avodart did have a higher incidence of side effects than Propecia in studies, I am not sure of the exact numbers. I did read an article on some website that listed the percentage of people who got sexual sides as 13%, but I'm not sure that is accurate. I think it is closer to 6 or 7%. The sides are the same as with propecia but they have higher incidences as I mentioned. I don't really care about the sides for myself on Avodart because I haven't gotten any of them, but I'm sure people who have them do.
Yeah, taking Avodart every other day blocks I think 95% of type II DHT, which is better than Proscar every day, but not as good as taking Avodart every day. Actually, taking 2.5 mg of Avodart every day(5 capsules!) blocks 100% of type II DHT basically, but this is not recommended, and is also quite expensive. We aren't sure how type I DHT contributes, or at least I'm not. It's found in the sebaceuous glands and maybe in tiny amounts in the follicles.
dutasteride does have a much longer half-life than finasteride. The half-life of finasteride is only a few hours while the half-life of dutasteride is measured in weeks. What this means is that if you do get sides from dutasteride, that they will be with you longer, but will eventually disappear. finasteride can be taken every other day because the half-life is not what's important for finasteride dosing. It does take the 5 ar type II enzyme a few days to start producing back at normal capacity after a finasteride dose, you are correct. It takes much longer for it to start producing at normal capacity after a dutasteride dose or two.
Basically, taking one dutasteride capsule every 5 days is equivalent to taking 5 mg of Proscar a day, If I remember correctly.
Once you have reached steady-state(maximum DHT inhibition for that particular dose) on dutasteride, the half-life of it is about 5 weeks.
Following commencing of a daily dose of dutasteride, you are at 65% of steady-state concentration after 1 month and approximately 90% after 3 months. And because of the long-half life, dutasteride can be detected in the blood 4-5 months after discontinuation of it assuming you have already reached a steady state.
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Good information Jayman. I know I've read that before too but you can't get that type of information posted enough!
I'm curious though, if you're inhibiting almost ALL of your DHT aren't you much more susceptible to gynecomastia since there is no DHT to combat estrogen? I mean in regular people who have NW1 at the age of 50, they would have the same levels of DHT as us but their follicles are just not susceptible to it. Too bad there's no drug that'll simply just block all of the androgen receptors from DHT rather than eliminate our DHT levels. Well too bad there's nothing besides internal spironolactone.
I'm curious though, if you're inhibiting almost ALL of your DHT aren't you much more susceptible to gynecomastia since there is no DHT to combat estrogen? I mean in regular people who have NW1 at the age of 50, they would have the same levels of DHT as us but their follicles are just not susceptible to it. Too bad there's no drug that'll simply just block all of the androgen receptors from DHT rather than eliminate our DHT levels. Well too bad there's nothing besides internal spironolactone.
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FairTax,
You'd think so but I think the gynecomastia rate for dutasteride is only 0.4%.
You'd think so but I think the gynecomastia rate for dutasteride is only 0.4%.
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JayMan said:
That's it?!?! Do you happen to know what the rate is for finasteride? I know that in general the sides were 2% for finasteride but if you form an opinion based on reading message boards a newbie would think it's a 50/50 shot in general.
You know, I think perhaps I'll give Dutas a shot once my Finax runs out. Your knowledge on dutasteride is a pretty good sell. Hey like the old saying goes, the truth will set you free huh?
0.4% chance of getting gynecomastia is negligable. If the biggest side is reduced libido than probably most people here could stand to have a reduced libido! :lol:
Hmmm, Dutas at unitedpharmacies.com is $15 for a strip of 10 0.5mg capsules. So taking it EoD would cost $45 for a 2 month supply. :scratch: Perhaps I'll give finasteride a longer chance for financial reasons unless the FairTax finally passes before my finasteride runs out and THEN I'll certainly be able to afford the dutas!
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FairTaxNow said:That's it?!?! Do you happen to know what the rate is for finasteride? I know that in general the sides were 2% for finasteride but if you form an opinion based on reading message boards a newbie would think it's a 50/50 shot in general.
You know, I think perhaps I'll give Dutas a shot once my Finax runs out. Your knowledge on dutasteride is a pretty good sell. Hey like the old saying goes, the truth will set you free huh?
0.4% chance of getting gynecomastia is negligable. If the biggest side is reduced libido than probably most people here could stand to have a reduced libido! :lol:
Hmmm, Dutas at unitedpharmacies.com is $15 for a strip of 10 0.5mg capsules. So taking it EoD would cost $45 for a 2 month supply. :scratch: Perhaps I'll give finasteride a longer chance for financial reasons unless the FairTax finally passes before my finasteride runs out and THEN I'll certainly be able to afford the dutas!
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic4/avodart_ad.htm
Check out that table 1
Impotence is 4.7% from months 0-6, but from months 18-24 it's only 0.8% That's actually a tenth of a percentage point lower than placebo, and it lends credence to my constant mentioning of the fact that sides can disappear with time. All the percentages do go down with time.
As for gynecomastia specifically, here are the numbers from that table
Months 0-6:
dutasteride: 0.5% incidence
placebo: 0.2%
Months 7-12:
dutasteride: 0.8%
placebo: 0.3%
Months 13-18:
dutasteride: 1.1%
placebo: 0.3%
Months 18-24:
dutasteride: 0.6%
placebo: 0.1%
Pretty negligible as you can see, and some guys get gyno without even being on dutasteride.
Look at the last two time categories, 13-18 months, and 19-24 months, because those are more important in my opinion. Every single sexual side and gyno are all under 1% incidence for dutasteride.