How Different Types Of Estrogen Promote (and Hinder) Hair Growth

[bridgeburn]

With hair, ER-alpha stimulation promotes catagen. Catagen is the cessation of hair growth. ie. The end of anagen (growth phase). After catagen comes telogen (hair shed). Any estrogen which stimulates ER-alpha predominantly will therefore stall hair growth and lead to hair shedding. (ref)

This study you posted showing alpha receptor activity promoting catagen phase is talking about mice..

 

[rclark]

This study you posted showing alpha receptor activity promoting catagen phase is talking about mice..

How is your hair doing these days?

If it makes you feel better, you stand out with your hair color.

You could always get a job dressing up like RONALD MCDONALD (just kidding).

 

[bridgeburn]

With ovaries, you have very little wiggle room. I plane to take 4-6mg estradiol with 100mg prometrium, but this is incredibly risky.

I dont think its so risky as made out to be. There's a theory that women have a higher risk of cancer because of the ups and downs of E levels during the menstrual cycle causes consistent aptosis and regeneration.

and we know that paradoxically high dose estrogen therapy is effective Against breast cancer. and women when they are at the most risk for cancer are postmenopausal, when E production reduces significantly, so I think that its actually the middle ground which is more dangerous. and that either really low or consistent high E is safer in terms of cancer.

Of course, I'm only speculating, so dont take this as medical advice.

 

[bridgeburn]

How is your hair doing these days?

fucktastic, but actually my left side is responding wayy better than my shitty right side. I think I might end up with a Norwood 0 on the left and Norwood 2 on the right, lol.. but I guess both sides are slowly improving

 

[rclark]

fucktastic, but actually my left side is responding wayy better than my shitty right side. I think I might end up with a Norwood 0 on the left and Norwood 2 on the right, lol.. but I guess both sides are slowly improving

Look, I wasn't saying it's bad to have red hair, just like it's not a bad thing to
wear a wig and dress up like Pennywise the killer clown at a children's party, as long as the parent's
aren't home and carry guns.

This could be a really good look for you, in case your hair
doesn't grow back:

 

[bridgeburn]

Look, I wasn't saying it's bad to have red hair, just like it's not a bad thing to
wear a wig and dress up like Pennywise the killer clown at a children's party, as long as the parent's
aren't home and carry guns.

This could be a really good look for you, in case your hair
doesn't grow back:

View attachment 83502

um, my hair's not red. at least I don't think it is? sometimes It seems to change color

 

[rclark]

um, my hair's not red. at least I don't think it is? sometimes It seems to change color

Sorry, I thought you were @JohnsonDDG . I forgot.

 

[rclark]

Did you have this problem pre-HRT? My right side has always been fucked, I always got acne there and my hairline recession is way worse there. Im curious if you had a similar problem pre-HRT or if youre experiencing this now.

I'm in the exact same boat as you, my friend. My right hair is growing back, BUT, it will NEVER
fully grow back.

It's only growing the most recent hair (not the hair I lost seventeen years ago, that's gone. Just like
Kate Perry's virginity).

 

[rclark]

What regime are you on bro? On HRT I have a bunch of vellus hair on my right side too but its developing way more slowly than the left side. Also my right boob looks smaller, its so frustrating lol

I do have man boobs, but I also have a "MAN BELLY", so my boobs don't stick out.

Those are from my teenage years, when I was fat. There not from any of the stuff I take now.

Unfortunately for us, they can only be surgically removed. Either that, or I have to start lifting weights.

 

[JohnsonDDG]

Sorry, I thought you were @JohnsonDDG . I forgot.

Lol I don't have red hair either/

 

[rclark]

Lol I don't have red hair either/

OK. I'm not an old man with hair loss. I'm really a teenager.

 

[JohnsonDDG]

OK. I'm not an old man with hair loss. I'm really a teenager.

You ok?

I think you have me confused with someone

I've posted tons of pictures of me on here so people usually know what I look like

 

[Arrade]

Estrogen is known to have complex effects on hair. It can both promote and inhibit hair growth depending on the type of estrogen used.

The primary factor that seems to determine the outcome of estrogen on your hair is which type of estrogen receptor you are stimulating with that type of estrogen.

Types of Estrogen Receptors
The body has two types of estrogen receptors. These two estrogen receptors have dramatically different effects on hair growth.

1) ER-alpha
ER-alpha is the type of estrogen receptor you DON'T want to stimulate.

With hair, ER-alpha stimulation promotes catagen. Catagen is the cessation of hair growth. ie. The end of anagen (growth phase). After catagen comes telogen (hair shed). Any estrogen which stimulates ER-alpha predominantly will therefore stall hair growth and lead to hair shedding. (ref)

ER-alpha stimulation also may lead to osteoarthritis and osteoporosis. (ref)

2) ER-beta
ER-beta by contrast is the estrogen receptor you DO want to stimulate.

ER-beta signalling works by silencing the ER-alpha catagen signalling pathway. By blocking this catagen signalling, hair follicles can grow longer and spend more time in anagen. This leads to longer and healthier hair. (ref)

Types of Estrogen
To evaluate the usefulness of any type of estrogen, we therefore need to know to what extent they stimulate ER-alpha vs. ER-beta receptors.

1) 17 beta-Estradiol (E2)
The primary estrogen of the natural human body is 17 beta-estradiol. Estradiol binds equally well to ER-alpha and ER-beta. (ref)

Estradiol binds most strongly to the estrogen receptors of the natural estrogens. (ref) We can therefore use estradiol as a standard to compare other estrogen binding strengths, and rate estradiol as "100" binding strength for both receptors.

Because estradiol binds equally to ER-alpha and ER-beta, I would postulate that overall this may likely be considered a "good" estrogenic agent for promoting hair growth, but not the best as we will soon see.

2) Estrone (E1)
Estrone is the primary estrogen of menopause. It has been described as the "ugly estrogen". (ref)

Estrone has a binding affinity for ER-α of 60 and for ER-ß of 37 (relative to estradiol). (ref) This means it is primarily an ER-alpha stimulator, and thus can be considered absolutely undesirable for hair growth.

Estrone will lead to premature catagen of hair follicles. It is likely the reason postmenopausal women lose hair all over their heads and bodies.

3) Estriol (E3)
Estriol binds to ER-α with an affinity of 14 and to ER-ß with an affinity of 21. (ref)

This means it is the only natural estrogen with a greater ER-beta affinity than ER-alpha.

Estriol is therefore the primary estrogen we DO want to use for hair growth.

Estriol is most famous for shooting up dramatically after about 12 weeks pregnancy (ref), and it is credited in part for the fantastic glowing skin and long thick hair that pregnant women experience from this point of pregnancy onward.

Estriol has a half life of 6-9 hours with vaginal application, which may be similar to skin application. (ref) Twice a day application thus makes the most sense. It has a low affinity relative to the other estrogens (it is the weakest to bind), so larger amounts must be used if its effects are desired.

4) Ethinyl Estradiol (EE)
This is the primary estrogen used in birth control pills. Unfortunately, EE is a purely ER-alpha stimulator. (ref) This likely makes it useless for hair growth promotion (unless you are using it orally for chemical castration, which will help stop male pattern hair loss by shutting down all your androgen production).

Normal women can likely get away with EE usage in birth control pills because even on high dose contraception, they will still have their natural estrogens (E1, E2, E3) to provide ER-beta stimulation and help counteract EE's ER-alpha effect. (ref, ref)

However, EE will not provide benefits for hair in this context, and should likely be minimized or avoided in all circumstances compared to other estrogens if hair growth is the desired outcome.

Manipulating Estrogen Receptor Expression
As @Georgie pointed out in another thread, dexamethasone (a steroid) has been shown to decrease ER-alpha receptor expression by up to 38%, while having no effect on ER-beta receptor expression. (ref)

This means that topical steroids could in theory be used to downregulate ER-alpha receptors in the scalp and promote a more ER-beta predominant effect.

Dexamethasone is used in combination with 17 alpha-estradiol (alfatradiol) in a German product called Ell-Cranell Dexa. I am unsure of the ER-alpha vs. ER-beta stimulating balance of 17 alpha-estradiol, but presuming it is similar to 17 beta-estradiol, the mechanism of action for this product would make sense. The steroid will shift receptor balance towards ER-beta predominance, and estradiol will then bind to these increased ER-beta receptors, stimulating hair growth.

The problem with this approach is that topical steroids can lead to skin atrophy over time, so they are not a good long term treatment. Additionally, the same predominantly ER-beta stimulation can be accomplished much more simply by just using estriol cream instead.

So although it is interesting to conceptualize, I do not think the alfatradiol/dexamethasone combo is the most useful approach to manipulating estrogen pathways for hair growth.

Summary
In other words:

• ER-alpha signalling stimulates catagen (stopping hair growth dead)
• ER-beta signalling blocks the ER-alpha pathway (prolonging anagen and causing hair growth)

Evaluating the different types of estrogen:

• Estradiol has a 1:1 alpha:beta binding ratio, estriol has a 3:2 beta:alpha binding ratio, and estrone has a 1.6:1 alpha:beta binding ratio (ref)
• Ethinyl estradiol has "ERα selective agonistic potency" ie. only binds to ER-alpha (ref)

Therefore we can conclude that if ER-alpha stimulation is a negative factor for hair, and ER-beta stimulation is a positive one, the value of each estrogen can be ranked as:

• Estriol (best) - 3:2 beta:alpha
• Estradiol (2nd best) - 1:1 beta:alpha
• Estrone (poor) - 1.6:1 alpha:beta
• Ethinyl estradiol (absolutely terrible) - exclusive alpha binding, will lead to premature catagen and cessation of hair growth

Application
For both men and women, the most useful approach to estrogen therapy in the pursuit of hair growth will therefore likely be a topical estriol cream applied directly to the areas of the hairline where stimulation is desired.

Fortunately, estriol creams are freely available most places over the counter. I have been using this one myself:
https://www.amazon.com/Bioidentical-Supplements-Micronized-Bio-Identical-Menopause/dp/B004XJIDEO

I have read a higher concentration of 0.3% estriol can be used in compounded creams for acne. This can also have an anti-aging effect. If you are brave, you can use it on your face as well for these benefits. (ref)

Primary risks of estrogen therapy in general for men will likely be sexual dysfunction. I have noticed some mild erectile dysfunction when I am using large amounts of estriol cream, but it doesn't bother me at this stage. Other risks for all estrogens are of blood clots, increased risk of breast cancer, etc. (ref)

For my own part, I will continue to use estriol for both hair growth promotion and anti-aging effect on my skin as I have been using it for about two months now and it has appeared to be quite effective for both. Dosage can easily be adjusted by using more or less cream to minimize side effects.

No treatment for hair loss or skin care is perfect or well suited for everyone. Most men will probably want to avoid estrogen therapies even just in principle alone. However, if used correctly, estrogen is likely a powerful hair growth tool to consider for those who wish to utilize it to their benefit.

What do you think of S-Equol, seems from what I read it is even less of an agonist at the alpa site, but more of a beta agonist (this is what is in the brotion lotion).
Do you think the topical estrogen you linked above would reduce facial hair or go systemic? It sounds like the systemic part does if you're mentioning sexual sides.

 

[bridgeburn]

Did you have this problem pre-HRT? My right side has always been fucked, I always got acne there and my hairline recession is way worse there. Im curious if you had a similar problem pre-HRT or if youre experiencing this now.

yeah, before Hrt my right side was more receeded. now my right nipple is bigger but my left boob is a little bigger, lol.

 

[bridgeburn]

Its not uncommon for trans girls to have symmetrical issues which level out the longer they are on HRT. The same would apply for hair growth Id imagine.

Ive heard its like that when a girl goes through natural puberty too lol. for me It seems they both take turns

 

[bridgeburn]

Maybe you should do some of that stuff on your bad boob so theyll look nice and symmetrical lol

Ahahhaahha! that's a good idea... or I could use your other idea and just bathe in it

 

[bridgeburn]

That would seriously be amazing. I wonder if you could inject IM estradiol directly into the scalp.. I always wondered if I could inject it in my hairline or something but I'll probably faint if I try it lol. Bathing in Estrogen will give you massive boobs tho, I doubt someone like you would want that

Massive even boobs . I'd be worried about messing up and hitting a vien or something. I've never injected myself with anything before,.. maybe dermapen and dip the needles in the gel?

 

[bridgeburn]

I thought guys are supposed to hate boobs.. well you are going to have them forever so its important that they are even haha

right...

lol

 

[IdealForehead]

What do you think of S-Equol, seems from what I read it is even less of an agonist at the alpa site, but more of a beta agonist (this is what is in the brotion lotion).
Do you think the topical estrogen you linked above would reduce facial hair or go systemic? It sounds like the systemic part does if you're mentioning sexual sides.

Looks good if it is primary ER-beta!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15883431/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21341397/

From what I can see though its only available as an oral supplement which is not ideal. A topical makes much more sense.

They mention genistein in that article which I noticed Wikipedia also lists as a ER-beta agonist.

Actually genistein may be the best of all if you can get a cream:

• full agonist of ERβ (EC50 = 7.62 nM) and, to a much lesser extent (~20-fold), full agonist[11] or partial agonist of ERα[12]
• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genistein

I may try to find a genistein cream to try next instead. I see there are some on the market but they are a bit obscure. For now I'll likely continue on estriol.

I note genistein powder can be bought here with solubility data also provided by the site:

http://www.lotioncrafter.com/genistein.html

 

[Arrade]

Looks good if it is primary ER-beta!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15883431/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21341397/

From what I can see though its only available as an oral supplement which is not ideal. A topical makes much more sense.

They mention genistein in that article which I noticed Wikipedia also lists as a ER-beta agonist.

Actually genistein may be the best of all if you can get a cream:

• full agonist of ERβ (EC50 = 7.62 nM) and, to a much lesser extent (~20-fold), full agonist[11] or partial agonist of ERα[12]
• https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genistein

I may try to find a genistein cream to try next instead. I see there are some on the market but they are a bit obscure. For now I'll likely continue on estriol.

Man, I saw they sold one on amazon but not anymore!
That's very interesting, I will try to look into it as well. I see you can buy it as a powder here:
http://www.lotioncrafter.com/genistein.html

I'm a little sketched out at using estriol, and I refuse to use finasteride since I play sports.