I think I've just cured it.

[Hoppi]

Hoppi, to be perfectly honest with you I think that diet CAN play a role in this - but only a small one. By following your advice, I could probably lower my DHT level somewhat - let's say 10%. That wouldn't stop my follicles being sensitive and falling out, however. It would just give a very, very limited delay.

Also, you have to be the only NW1 in history to be up at 5AM posting about flaxseeds on a hairloss forum.

I don't think he is norwood one.He just hide it,i see clear this in the photo.

haha joke is I hid it so well not even I noticed! lol

It took it to get all that way back before I even SAW!

My hair is really thick by nature and it just masked it perfectly O.O

But it's ok! I've changed my diet and lifestyle, gone on lignans and finasteride and Nizoral, am taking steps to lower my insulin resistance again.

I know that people here don't believe that's what causes it. But I do. So

I also think that balancing your hormones can ONLY be a good thing. For yourself and for your hair

Oh and moxsom it took me this long to realize but that ISN'T scientific proof I'm wrong! That's STATISTICAL evidence I might be wrong! What I need is ANY kind of indication that increased insulin and insulin resistance (or a very closely tied body mechanism) DOESN'T influence SHBG and free T levels, therefore influencing DHT levels, and so cause hair loss.

People keep dwelling on this genetic thing as the sole, only cause of male pattern hair loss. But sometimes I think they can't see the forest for the trees

Hoppi, to be perfectly honest with you I think that diet CAN play a role in this - but only a small one. By following your advice, I could probably lower my DHT level somewhat - let's say 10%. That wouldn't stop my follicles being sensitive and falling out, however. It would just give a very, very limited delay.

I see where you're coming from, but I believe that Brian Simonis (through his own example and forum) kinda already disproved those figures! hehe

 

[moxsom]

Oh and moxsom it took me this long to realize but that ISN'T scientific proof I'm wrong! That's STATISTICAL evidence I might be wrong! What I need is ANY kind of indication that increased insulin and insulin resistance (or a very closely tied body mechanism) DOESN'T influence SHBG and free T levels, therefore influencing DHT levels, and so cause hair loss.

Okay, you seem to think that metabolic syndromes are directly correlated with hairloss (for some strange reason), how come both lower Testosterone and Lower SHBG predict a higher incedence of metabolic syndromes? According to your theory if you had low SHBG you would show higher test levels, correct?

 

[Mopless]

You know, if insulin resistance is a player in male pattern baldness, then Apple Cider Vinegar would be a good thing to add to ones diet.

Supposedly it is almost as good at lowering insulin levels as Pharmaceuticals. So I hear anyway. What do you think Hoppi?

 

[Hoppi]

Oh and moxsom it took me this long to realize but that ISN'T scientific proof I'm wrong! That's STATISTICAL evidence I might be wrong! What I need is ANY kind of indication that increased insulin and insulin resistance (or a very closely tied body mechanism) DOESN'T influence SHBG and free T levels, therefore influencing DHT levels, and so cause hair loss.

Okay, you seem to think that metabolic syndromes are directly correlated with hairloss (for some strange reason), how come both lower Testosterone and Lower SHBG predict a higher incedence of metabolic syndromes? According to your theory if you had low SHBG you would show higher test levels, correct?

First of all I believe they ARE... it seems to be a fairly widely held view. You would need to provide a fair bit of evidence to disprove it again I think as a lot of people are clearly disillusioned!

And I don't know, all I know is high T = more DHT and low SHBG = more T. And regulation of SHBG is known to be regulated either by insulin/IGF-1 or liver fat production, or something along those lines (scientific opinion seems to be divided).

If you believe there in fact IS no correlation between metabolic syndrome and male pattern baldness (and again you are really going against a lot of very commonly held views here, things many people take for "given") then yes lower testosterone levels would kind of back that up. But the only possible explanation for that would be underactive T production in the testes, as if your SHBG is low your T WILL be high, if it is being produced normally, unless there is something astoundingly strange going on.

Your theories that hormonal balance (other than DHT), diet and glandular activity has absolutely no connection to male pattern baldness, before or after any debatable gene "activation", just strikes me as plain ridiculous.

 

[moxsom]

And I don't know, all I know is high T = more DHT and low SHBG = more T. And regulation of SHBG is known to be regulated either by insulin/IGF-1 or liver fat production, or something along those lines (scientific opinion seems to be divided).

You keep saying this, but metabolic syndromes say you're wrong.

Urologe A. 2010 Jan;49(1):47-50.

Testosterone and the metabolic syndrome

Schubert M, Jockenhövel F.

Abdominal obesity as a key cardiovascular risk factor as well as metabolic syndrome and type 2 diabetes mellitus are associated with low testosterone levels. In line with these facts, investigations of patients undergoing androgen ablation therapy for prostate cancer have shown a negative effect of this treatment approach on insulin sensitivity and body fat mass. The effects of physiological doses of testosterone seem to have less impact on the parameters of lipid metabolism. However, supraphysiological levels of testosterone can lower HDL levels. At present data on glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes are not yet uniform, but negative effects on glycemic control in type 2 diabetics have not been reported. In fact two studies were able to demonstrate a positive effect of testosterone on glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes.

So essentially we have men who have low testosterone and insulin sensitivity, how does that make sense in light of your theory? Infact studies have shown that testosterone therapy helped patients with type 2 diabetes.

If you believe there in fact IS no correlation between metabolic syndrome and male pattern baldness (and again you are really going against a lot of very commonly held views here, things many people take for "given") then yes lower testosterone levels would kind of back that up. But the only possible explanation for that would be underactive T production in the testes, as if your SHBG is low your T WILL be high, if it is being produced normally, unless there is something astoundingly strange going on.

What? It's not a given at all... I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Your theories that hormonal balance (other than DHT), diet and glandular activity has absolutely no connection to male pattern baldness, before or after any debatable gene "activation", just strikes me as plain ridiculous.

Interesting. Considering I have formal training as a molecular biologist, and you started reading about the subject 2 weeks ago. I am well aware of how hormonal activities interact with genetic predispositions. Explain to me how insulin reacts with the androgen receptor to turn on the "baldness gene".

Sure lowering your free T and raising your SHBG may decrease you're local scalp DHT minimally, but you still have 5 alpha reductase acting on Testosterone. Can't you see that hormone therapy will do little to stop androgens to binding to your AR.

 

[Hoppi]

So, you believe the idea of the gene being "activated" then? What do you feel activates it? And I don't mean like "stress" or "bad diet", I mean... what do you think activates it specifically?

 

[moxsom]

So, you believe the idea of the gene being "activated" then? What do you feel activates it? And I don't mean like "stress" or "bad diet", I mean... what do you think activates it specifically?

Androgens.

more specifically DHT. DHT binds to the AR, which then can cause transcription from the DNA of terrible things for your dermal papilla. These include TGF-B, Interleukins, MMP, and other inflammatory growth factors.

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

Hoppi, in an effort to remain balanced...

I think a phrase you have been searching for could best be summed up in: Your genes are what determines how your body reacts to food. The common layman has absolutely no idea of how profoundly diet can affect many parts of their lives. Science itself has been in the Dark Ages on this subject until only really in the past decade with the rise of nutrigenomics and nutrigenetics.

but also...

You grasp too strongly towards correlations. Just because (for example) high levels of substance X are associated with problem A does not mean that there is any proof or even support for thinking that lowering substance X will have any positive or negative effect on Problem A. You have read a lot on what appear to be mostly opinions of merely correlational relationships between different chemicals and symptoms. Correlation NEVER infers causation. Until you actually read a properly designed study that tests the actual effect of your theory there is no sound basis for the arguments you are proposing.

By constantly jumping to your own conclusions and then posting them on the boards here as fact just because it also agrees with the personal conclusions of others who are making the same logical flaws, you are compromising any productive discussions that could occur. Starting a discussion is fantastic but when you provide your own opinions as being facts it ceases to become anything fruitful and instead simply lowers the overall level of discourse.

I'm sure the majority of people here would love to read about someone having a major breakthrough in treating male pattern baldness but without providing a strong foundation for your "facts" you only weaken the potential of the ideas.

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

That was perhaps too negative, so in return:

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2008/06/wheat-raises-insulin-and-upregulates.html

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3235527

http://www.diabeteshealth.com/read/2008/12/15/6018/testosterone-and-diabetesan-important-link/

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/133/2/447

 

[KANGA]

That was perhaps too negative, so in return:

http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/2008/06/wheat-raises-insulin-and-upregulates.html

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3235527

http://www.diabeteshealth.com/read/2008/12/15/6018/testosterone-and-diabetesan-important-link/

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/133/2/447

Can you translate the last link into english?

And by english I mean dumb people english for slow people like me?

I enjoy books with pictures, btw.

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

That last study showed the experimenters being able to heavily mediate the production of DHT in skin cells by means of either introducing antibodies for IGF-1 or antibodies for the IGF-1 receptors. ie: by introducing chemicals that "destroyed" the IGF-1 compound or by introducing chemicals that destroyed the receptor for it, they were able to reduce the activity of the 5ar enzyme that turns testosterone into DHT.

GREAT! Simple, we can just start chugging antibodies for IGF-1 and we'll be done with it all right?!? Not entirely, IGF-1/testosterone/dihydrotestosterone are all produced in response to stimuli and so if we simply go after these compounds we're kinda missing the bigger picture.

I will add this though: both IGF-1 and insulin production are affected by the gene that is directly next to (and therefor could be influenced by) the second genetic marker for baldness.

 

[jh]

So they go bald, despite doing what you claim will "cure"or "stop" male pattern baldness. Why would people be any different?

Yes but that would be in a relatively small number of people, and they wouldn't go bald they would just take mild finasteride or something.

Just about every stump tailed macaque eats a low fat, mostly vegan diet. Every single one goes bald. The diet has no effect on their hair loss. On the other hand, finasteride and RU58841 did what a vegan diet failed to do: stopped the progression of male pattern baldness in macaques.

Why is it then that people bald because of their diet, while the macaque does so in spite of it? Why would only a "relatively small number of people" need finasteride to stop balding when all non-smoking vegan apes do?

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

Just about every stump tailed macaque eats a low fat, mostly vegan diet. Every single one goes bald. The diet has no effect on their hair loss. On the other hand, finasteride and RU58841 did what a vegan diet failed to do: stopped the progression of male pattern baldness in macaques.

Why is it then that people bald because of their diet, while the macaque does so in spite of it? Why would only a "relatively small number of people" need finasteride to stop balding when all non-smoking vegan apes do?

Because it's a monkey.

 

[moxsom]

Just about every stump tailed macaque eats a low fat, mostly vegan diet. Every single one goes bald. The diet has no effect on their hair loss. On the other hand, finasteride and RU58841 did what a vegan diet failed to do: stopped the progression of male pattern baldness in macaques.

Why is it then that people bald because of their diet, while the macaque does so in spite of it? Why would only a "relatively small number of people" need finasteride to stop balding when all non-smoking vegan apes do?

Because it's a monkey.

In which we share something like 98% of our genetic profile. Why would both finasteride or topical anti androgens work both of humans and "monkeys" if the mechanism for balding wasn't the same?

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

In which we share something like 98% of our genetic profile. Why would both finasteride or topical anti androgens work both of humans and "monkeys" if the mechanism for balding wasn't the same?

So what you're saying is that finasteride and topical anti-androgens work 100% in humans and that if I use them I'll regrow all of my hair and never have to worry about them falling back out? Well hell, if we already know the exact cause and cure of male pattern baldness then what is the point of this message board?

Technically I believe we haven't actually sequenced the stump-tailed macaque's genome yet even though we have mapped it's close relative, the rhesus monkey. And yes we're 93% genetically similar to rhesus monkeys, does this mean that they're 93% as tall as us, 93% as hairy as us, do they live 93% as long as us or have 93% of the same vocabulary as us? Hell the normal rhesus gene for metabolizing phenylalanine is the exact same gene that causes the genetic defect of phenylketonuria in humans (a genetic issue fixed by changes to the diet mind you). Fact is those 2.79 billion similar base pairs aren't in anywhere the same order in a monkey as a human and with changes in order you get changes in transcription, expression and duplication. We share 98% of the same genetic code as a chimpanzee yet they have 24 chromosomes (vs 23 in humans).

In the end, when even our most advanced drugs react differently across siblings in the same human family it's kinda hard to assume a hard rule of directly applying phenotypical responses across species especially when you consider that we have no clue about how the secondary bald related genetic marker in humans relates to monkeys.

BUT, if you must make the link across species, genus and family; the macaques are not just vegans, they are primarily frugivores meaning the majority of their diet consists of fruits. Fruits being high in both glucose AND fructose are severely prone to causing insulin problems if consumed in excess. The closely related rhesus macaque, which does not show "natural" balding, eats a diet of mainly vegetables which are great for regulating insulin.

 

[JLL]

You're assuming that these monkeys are not adapted to their diets, which doesn't make much sense. If they've eaten a lot of fruit for god knows how long, why wouldn't they have developed the mechanisms to handle it? The fact that humans and excess glucose/fructose don't go together just means that we are not frugivores.

 

[GeminiX]

Damn, I've eaten all the popcorn... off to the shops I go!

 

[Brains Expel Hair]

You're assuming that these monkeys are not adapted to their diets, which doesn't make much sense. If they've eaten a lot of fruit for god knows how long, why wouldn't they have developed the mechanisms to handle it? The fact that humans and excess glucose/fructose don't go together just means that we are not frugivores.

So you're saying that diet influences the monkeys differently than humans? Yes, exactly my point.

 

[Hoppi]

Hello everyone I'm back! hehe

And I know SO much more now! I have been studying and studying! My mind is like a little hive of new information! hehe

Ok well!! I still am very much focused on my idea of insulin, IGF-1, fat production and liver health. It makes so much sense for younger MPBers that it's scary! Well, actually not so much scary to me personally as I believe it is simply true (IMO)

Thing is, as far as I can tell, for young MPBers, we just need SHBG. As far as I can tell. It seems to be that unless your follicles are madly sensitive, which is probably quite rare, you just need to get your liver churning out more SHBG and mopping up your free T. This is my current theory, so whether it's true (it's hard to tell what will be disproven or proven in the future) or whether people agree, this is what I believe

And I am convinced my hairline is coming back, it certainly looks like it still! Make of that what you will but I'll keep you posted!

Basically, you need a healthy liver, and a healthy thyroid, from what I've learnt. The thyroid regulates pretty much every hormone in the body to some extent. If your thyroid is off, then your liver will probably be a bit off too. Liver fat production, lack of exercise, insulin, IGF-1... all these things are considered by the medical community to decrease SHBG levels. And you NEED good SHBG levels. That is not my theory, that is not speculation, it's basic, raw science. If your SHBG levels are too low, your free T levels will be too high, and you WILL bald (save for a criminally high finasteride or beta-sitosterol dose!!)

Yes we are genetically disposed, yes some people will bald even on a wicked diet, but I think it is rare.

My regimen now consists of the following:

Lignans (SDG at the moment, will soon replace with 7-HMR as they're more potent). These increase your SHBG and mop up spare sex hormones.

Beta-sitosterol and Nizoral or whatever if you want, but as far as I can tell only SEVERE cases should need that stuff.

Lipoic Acid. This will increase your insulin sensitivity. R-Lipoic Acid is the best but it costs a whole bunch so I've bought high strength Alpha-Lipoic! If your liver is healthy and releasing nice low, healthy amounts of hormones and fat, you should be fine. It's also a good antioxidant.

Brewer's Yeast as it reduces sebum, gives you lots of nice B-vitamins and chromium, which is also good for insulin sensitivity. Hell it even contains selenium, which is good for the thyroid!

Curcumin should definitely also be considered according to Brian. It balances sex hormones, reduces sebum, is anti-inflammatory, an antioxidant, lowers insulin resistance... hell apparently it even inhibits some DHT I'll probably throw it in too!

A good diet and lifestyle. This is the very CORE of this regimen I am making. It varies person to person, but roughly revolves around a high fibre, high veg and usually fruit diet. Too much focus on simple carbs, sugar or starch (I believe personally) will increase insulin. I believe that meat also interferes with insulin, so don't overdo it! Fat and dairy is also bad as all this will result in more fat in your liver and kill it's ability to produce SHBG. Dairy also increases IGF-1... and it's just not worth antagonizing the liver right now lol - it needs ALL it's energy for SHBG! IGF-1 is also not great for you in high doses as far as I can tell.

Also, I'm killing gluten like a bad habit. Apparently this (both quotes by Brian Simonis, qualified in Orthomolecular medicine):

"A very high percentage of females who suffer from polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) are allergic to wheat/gluten. PCOS is the female equivalent of male pattern baldness. Wheat/gluten causes a sustained elevation in blood glucose and insulin levels, which translates into chronic inflammation, upregulation of the gene Dickkoff-1 (which happens to drive DHT induced balding).
And low-and-behold, PCOS can be reversed with the correct diet and supplement protocol"

Oh and this bit about genes:

"Genes are not fate.
1. Epigenetics control gene expression.
I take a few natural agents that epigenetically alter gene expression, such as dietary histone deacetylase inhibitors.
One of them appear to involve the LGR5 gene. Of course if or when the pharmaceutical companies figure out a way to do what I’m already doing, they’ll botch it, because so far all the attempts to turn off physiological proteins ends up causing cancer.
Drugs just are not “smartâ€￾ enough to modulate, instead they just turn off essential functions."

That is new to me though, I am not trying to change my genes right now I am just trying to stop my obviously vulnerable hair follicles from being upset


I don't believe the gene is activated. I believe the entire problem for most people is hormonal. It is true that if your follicles are insanely susceptible then yes in theory even normal/low levels of T and DHT will set them off, but... I dunno, I can't imagine seeing that too often.

To reiterate, I am NOT saying that people with male pattern baldness are unhealthy. I am saying that I believe that if you want to control it you need to listen to your body and help it to regulate it's own hormones. There IS a regimen that works like this but does not force you to drastically change your diet, but personally I am going down the diet route primarily


Last but not least...

If young men bald because of high androgen levels (low SHBG and just general high levels because you're young), then why on earth do older men bald? Their androgen levels are lower... right?

Well, the reason apparently is, again according to Brian Simonis, that your body makes up for the lack of testosterone by producing more DHT and/or (I am not as experienced yet) increasing the potency of the DHT. So... voila. You bald.

So how do you stop this? Well, I am not totally sure yet, I'm sure Brian knows hehe. But apparently again good diet and increasing insulin sensitivity will help. Also apparently increasing antioxidants will help, like I say this is new to me. Possibly increasing T levels will help also, but decreasing DHT is bad. It usually is bad. In young people it kills many people's sex drives and gives sides, and in old people it gives them no T and no alternative.

Anyway, I'll keep you all posted on my progress

I am soon to drop Nizoral completely (I just finished the bottle so now is as good a time as any!) and I'm dropping my beta-sitosterol to only 200mg every other day.

At the moment my WHOLE regimen is pretty much on the back of SDG lignans and a good low insulin and fat diet, but soon I'll get the other new components. There is a good chance that lignans and good diet alone will cure it (think about it, my SHBG will be more than adequate) but I'm not taking any chances! I need to aim for optimal insulin sensitivity, liver health, low fat production and good thyroid balance! Wish me luck! ^_^

 

[Jacob]

You're back? Didn't you say you were banned or something? :shock:

And 7-HMR..lignans? Good diet? That's something new :shakehead: