Loeral Mimics Hypoxia-> PGE2->stemcelProtection

[Boldy]

Guys,


Ive been doing studies for couple weeks regarding Oxygen, PGE2, Stemcel progenitor CD34 cells (for hairgrowth)




In hort:
http://www.cosmeticsdesign-europe.c...to-launch-new-active-to-increase-hair-density


Loreal says their new product"NEOGENIC" mimics Hypoxia (LOW Oxygen Environment), which stimulates the CD34 stemcell, and as result faster hairgrowth.
Now I have Been searching the Role of Hypoxia, Oxygen and PGE2. It seems Hypoxia promotes PGE2 as EP1 receptor.
This leads on its turn activation of the CD34 Stemcel.
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/113/22/5444.full.pdf


I Havent fully studied the PDF yet, because of all the reading I Have to do, It would be nice to get some input from you guys regarding this pathway.




I think its pure Marketing what they are trying. They have a made a patented molecule, that increases PGE2 and on its turn, stemcel protection.


We can do this Directly. by exogenous PGE2.

 

[somone uk]

a study using mice?

don't hold your breath kid, mice studies like this come a dollar a dozen and rarely make it though the many sieves that it has to surpass in order for people to consider the product safe for humans, not even to consider effective on humans
and such findings pre-date a product by about 20 years

 

[Boldy]

If you had reeded at least a part of the the PDF, You would had seen PGE2 acts the same in Human CD34+ and the study is Prepublished online March 26, 2009.
Why so negative without studieng the material? This is just an anouther prove why PGE2 SHould work In terms of hairloss. THis pg is lower in Androgenetic Alopecia SCALP.

Next time please know your materials before posting.
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/content/113/22/5444.full.pdf

 

[ttallsu339]

This sounds like big news. The ability to regrow hair dormant or not is pretty big. I read somewhere that it was 4 % regrowth. Doesn't sound too great , but still an improvement. Do you think the four percent is all you will get or will it improve four percent with every treatment. If so that will be great.

 

[Saint-Loup]

In hort:
http://www.cosmeticsdesign-europe.c...to-launch-new-active-to-increase-hair-density


Loreal says their new product"NEOGENIC" mimics Hypoxia (LOW Oxygen Environment), which stimulates the CD34 stemcell, and as result faster hairgrowth.
Now I have Been searching the Role of Hypoxia, Oxygen and PGE2. It seems Hypoxia promotes PGE2 as EP1 receptor.
This leads on its turn activation of the CD34 Stemcel.
http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrar.../5444.full.pdf

But it could work in the opposite direction.

The development relates to research done at the French firm’s new Hair Research Centre concerning its patented molecule stemoxydine; a molecular biomimic of hypoxia via the stabilisation of the protein Hif1a.
Several studies have shown that hypoxic conditions are important in controlling some of the functions of stem cells, and the HIF1 (Hypoxia Inducing Factor) transcription factor plays a central role in controlling the expression of numerous genes involved in cell survival.
“This discovery may play an essential role in maintaining stem cell function,” continued the L’Oréal scientist.
“The resulting molecule, independent of the level of oxygenation, targets and inhibits prolyl-hydroxylases thereby enabling the accumulation of the active form of HIF1 as is observed with hypoxia.”

and Regulation of the HIF-1α Level Is Essential for Hematopoietic Stem Cells
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1934590910003449

 

[Relax Im hilarious]

I don't know where to stand on this whole l'oreal product. Boldy, the paper that you posted is very interesting but i'm not sure how relevant it is to hair growth in regards to this l'oreal product. Here's what l'oreal had to say about neogenic in a recent interview (ignore the bad english it's translated from french in google translate):

The molecule presented as revolutionary, the Stemoxydine, was administered as a lotion dosed at 5%, applied once a day for three months to 53 of 101 volunteers for the clinical test. The remaining 48 were massaged the scalp with a very innocuous alcoholic solution placebo. Ultimately, none of the subjects treated Stemoxydine did, indeed, ended up with a luxuriant head of hair to Samson, but, "the third month, their capillary density was significantly greater than in others" , noted the authors of the study, now convinced that the new molecule is "the treatment of capillary rebirth" of tomorrow. They confirmed their measurements "phototrichogram", that is to say, marking an area of ​​the skull affected by a partial alopecia, shaved and photographed. Three months later, the comparison photo is a real effect "before and after." In any case, "the subjects perceived an increase in size and abundance, and greater ease of styling," says Professor Pascal Reygagne, dermatologist Sabouraud center.
According to the clinical study for three months of 101 men aged 18 to 55, with hair loss is quite large and localized, the treatment has increased their capillary density by 4%, a gain of 1,700 hair. "We are losing each day, naturally, between fifty and one hundred hair, said Professor Reygagne, and, contrary to popular belief, women are affected than men. But this fall, when it becomes more important, often has psychological consequences. Culturally, the hair has always been a symbol of seduction, of vitality, even power, in any case it is part of self-esteem. "The preventive solution to overcome the fall: boost stem cells of the hair.

Perhaps this 'stemoxydine' may cause a hypoxic environment, which, in turn may lead to increased prostaglandin production which may begin to activate some form of adult stem cell which helps to increase follicular cell growth. I'm not entirely sold on this though, previous evidence has shown that higher prostaglandin levels are actually increased in men with more severe baldness (and before you say it i know PGE2 is decreased and PGD2 is increased in balding), this is why topical corticosteroid injections into affected areas has shown some promise (although the side effects of long term use are bad). I've never been truly sold on PGE2, PGE2 is increased in fever and therefore technically stimulating constant low grade infection would be a way of upregulating hair growth due to PGE2 synthesis but as the prostaglandins are an incredibly complex set of molecules used in everything from bone turnover to vascular relaxation (maybe the cause of the increased capilliary density in l'oreals case) it is quite difficult to get on top of them. Heck you might as well use valproic acid in topical form on your head as this stimulates the increase of WNT proteins which are found to increase hair growth in mice but then again valproic acid is the core component of sodium valproate used to treat epilepsy and bipolar disorder and that has been linked with hair loss when given to epileptics so as you can see, something in mice and in theory doesn't always work in practice...

In regards to the CD34 it's not a stem cell in itself but instead a molecule found as a marker on many HSC's, they don't really know that much about it but it is believed that it may be involved in tethering for adaptive T-cell immune responses and also may be involved in widening the lumens of vessels. However, HSC's are almost exclusively found in bone marrow (that's their function) and CD34+ cells can be found in acute lymphoblastic and myeloblastic leukaemias so using them as a direct marker for prostaglandin interaction (especially just PGE2) is... well... spurious at best as it can show many things. For example there would be upregulation of CD34+ cells in an acute immune response due to extra l-sectin needed for T-cell migration to lymph nodes during infection whilst undergoing clonal expansion.

Another problem i have with this theory is that as i mentioned earlier, HSC's tend to be found in bone marrow, unless your a foetus, bone marrow and therefore haematopoesis does not occur in the bones of the skull, how a topical treatment applied to the scalp is meant to migrate to the bone marrow is beyond me, are they trying to say that the increased PGE2 levels (a local signalling molecule) in the scalp are going to somehow migrate to the long bones and directly increase HSC levels? Really? Also if it does do this there are a whole host of problems that can cause, leukaemias, aplastic anaemia, polycythemia vera to name but a few. L'oreal claim that capilliary density is increased by 4% and as i stated earlier i guess that if this does work it is via the increase in PGE2 causes vasodilation of local capilliary beds and therefore angiogenesis leading to a small increase in the amount of capilliaries found in the scalp, however they do not specify how extra capilliary density is meant to help grow hair, after all the laser comb which has been around for over a decade claimed to regrow hair by increased blood flow to the scalp and the laser comb is still yet to be proven to do anything even after plenty of research. This figure they state of 1700 hairs as well, how are they measuring this, is this a presumed figure? Is this actual growth? If so where are the pictures to prove it? I don't know how l'oreals product works because they've been so vague in what they are releasing to the public, once again greater transparancy would be better by l'oreal but then my suspicion is that this is exactly why this is being released as a cosmetic and not as a FDA/NICE approved drug because it may not really work but as a cosmetic they can get away with saying 'MAY promote hair growth' (just as alpecin does with no evidence except for in vitro testing).

I really don't want to call shenanigans on this product and lord knows at a cost of 80 euros a month i'll probably even give it a try for a few months just to see if it makes any difference, but i just can't see it working, now histogens hair stimulating complex activating stem cells in the scalp, that seems to have a lot more science, evidence and basis to it, i'm watching that one closely to be honest, until then, it's gotta be finasteride.

 

[Saint-Loup]

Relax Im hilarious please don't write such long post, we can not answer you and discuss with you this way.
I will only respond to one of yours statements this time.
L'oreal is more transparent than you say because they introduced their product and their works to the hair scientific community last month in Barcelona at the EHRS 2012 congress.

17.00-17.20
The niche of human hair follicle stem cells: a specific environment
Bruno A. Bernard


SATELLITE SYMPOSIUM WITH LUNCH BOX by L’Oréal Recherche & Innovation
Beneficial effects of hypoxia
Chairpersons: Colin Jahoda/Bruno Bernard
12.15-12.35
Oxygen, a source of life and stress
C.Brahimi-Horn
12.35-12.55
Hypoxia and HIF pathway activity as factors of epidermal homeostasis
A. Panteleyev
12.55-13.15
Hypoxia and human hair follicle stem cells’ niche
B.A.Bernard/Dr.M.Rathman-Josserand

And they also submitted studies to the committee
HYPOXIA AND HUMAN HAIR FOLLICLE STEM/PROGENITOR CELLS. Michelle Rathman-Josserand
STEMOXYDINE® AND HAIR KENOGEN PHASE IN ANDROGENETIC ALOPECIA (Androgenetic Alopecia). Geneviève Loussouarn

http://www.ehrs2012.com/EHRS2012/Programme_files/Programme - June 19.pdf

 

[Relax Im hilarious]

Hi Saint-Loup, when you refer to 'we' not answering me do you speak for everyone or do you just have multiple-personality disorder?

I'm afraid i'm going to have to disagree with you in regards to their transparency, real scientific transparency would be releasing the data and scientific literature to the general community rather than sequestering it away in a conference. Having access to the EHRS timetable in no way brings us closer to the facts. I am not trying to have a go at l'oreal here, far from it, in fact i really hope they are on to something but i would very much like to see their research, for curiosity as much as anything.
Have you considered the possibility that the reason l'oreal are given the floor for their own private 'satellite symposium' at the not-for-profit EHRS is because they pay for the meeting to go ahead in the first place. Even science needs private funding and where better to promote your new product and give it credibility than at a conference of experts in trichology.

Studies into hypoxia and hair grow are currently focussed on in vitro or ex vivo human follicles and in vivo mice and rat follicles, this is an excellent curiosity but still not quite there yet. HIF-1alpha that you frequently reference is believed to be upregulated due to hypoxia and in turn causes EPO expression by human hair follicles. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17540710). That's right erythropoetin, previously thought to only be produced by the kidneys and liver is also produced by hair follicles under hypoxic condition and this may lead to extra blood flow.
Furthermore this evidence of hypoxic induced hair growth is by no means a new thing, it has been known about for years (http://univisgroup.com/wp-content/u...em_cell_conditioned_media_and_hair_growth.pdf) the real challenge has been making it work for a treatment. This is why i stated earlier that i believe that this idea that l'oreal has of trying to induce the hypoxia via the 'stemoxydine' will ultimately be less successful than, say histogen, who have studied the growth factors produced by a hypoxic environment with hair follicles and are making a serum that contains these growth factors in order to enhance hair growth.
I apologise in advance for engaging in reductio ad absurdum but which do you believe will be more successful, creating hypoxia on a human head via a topical cream or using an injectable formula of pre-formed growth factors?

 

[Boldy]

Dear Relex,

I really do appriciate your detailed post. And the this topic is meant to be a discussion so we could come further in our research.

this is also a nice study about VPA : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3323655/

I hope you read it once you have time.

THe aim of my first post is to show that Hair groth can be triggerd by The CD34 marker. PGE2 can do this and Hypoxia Also, + VPA.

We should investigate this pathway further. It could be a nice addon in combination witht a CRTH2 antagonist or a MCTC Mastcell inhibitor by chyase.

We suspect MCTC mastcell responsible in the Scalp for PGD2!

See this study also : http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10525066


AGain guys, THis whole topic is NOT about leorals Product. Its for us to let us think about triggering CD34.


we could accomplish mascell inhibtion by Trying Vitamine E for the moment.



I'm doing my best here by reading and trying to understand the studies.

 

[Relax Im hilarious]

Hey boldy, your right and i think you've raised some really interesting points with all the stuff that your posting and a big thank you for starting this thread and also doing the research to start it off.
Clearly there is more to balding than just DHT and this whole area of hypoxic growth is something that does sound very interesting (and clearly something that seems to be close to yielding some real results).
There are some interesting experiments on sites like these where people have used anti-histamines both crushed up and dissolved in alcohol for use as a topical 'cream' and also orally because they say it helps control their hairloss. From what people say there is varying levels of success, it would work similar to a corticosteroid in the fact that it would dampen the immune response and therefore lower mast cell degranulation products and help lead to a lower prostaglandin level, the problem a lot of people had was getting the dosing right, because there is so much variety on the market and the pharmacokinetics varies so much (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2866055) it's tough to know how often to take them, also because an oral medication would be systemic rather than localised it would be tricky to know how much of an effect it would have on the scalp and you may have to essentially overdose to see any effect.

The paper that you posted on valproic acid is very interesting. The authors claim that the effect of valproic acid in to upregulate the wnt/beta-catenin pathway, something that is known to be involved released under hypoxic condition in hair follicles and something that histogen have been using in their hair stimulating complex. I definitely think this one has promise, the only problem with valproic acid is the delivery agent. As i mentioned in one of my previous posts, sodium valproate is currently used as an anti-epileptic and mood stabiliser and although generally well tolerated, can also have some pretty nasty side effects (as well as being very teratonogenic), one of which is hair loss. So a proper delivery vector for valproic acid would need more research.
For the study you posted on chymase inhibitors, it seems the authors were more interested in investigating their prospect in skin and lungs, i'm guessing for asthma and eczema than baldness but again it is an interesting prospect.

I've got a couple of papers that you mights like, first a great one on baldness, cd34 and cd200 positive progenitor cells (http://www.jci.org/articles/view/44478/pdf), this is a great paper for explaining this whole area and showing real evidence that it has a significant impact on hairloss and as a side note the paper was part sponsored by l'oreal, so hopefully they were using this when developing their new product....
Secondly, this paper (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19705135) shows how the glycogen-synthase kinase 3 is involved in hair beta-catenin and therefore WNT and is important for hair growth as well, definitely worth a read.

There is definitely a lot of promise with this area and hopefully this will yield some exciting new products sometime in the futures, as i've said in some of my previous posts, histogen seem to be pursuing this whole line of research with some success and i think it will be interesting to see their further results in their phase two trials when they are out.

 

[odalbak]

This is interesting, but I thought hypoxia generated an increase of dht levels in the scalp…

 

[Saint-Loup]

Hi Saint-Loup, when you refer to 'we' not answering me do you speak for everyone or do you just have multiple-personality disorder?

I'm afraid i'm going to have to disagree with you in regards to their transparency, real scientific transparency would be releasing the data and scientific literature to the general community rather than sequestering it away in a conference. Having access to the EHRS timetable in no way brings us closer to the facts. I am not trying to have a go at l'oreal here, far from it, in fact i really hope they are on to something but i would very much like to see their research, for curiosity as much as anything.
Have you considered the possibility that the reason l'oreal are given the floor for their own private 'satellite symposium' at the not-for-profit EHRS is because they pay for the meeting to go ahead in the first place. Even science needs private funding and where better to promote your new product and give it credibility than at a conference of experts in trichology.

Studies into hypoxia and hair grow are currently focussed on in vitro or ex vivo human follicles and in vivo mice and rat follicles, this is an excellent curiosity but still not quite there yet. HIF-1alpha that you frequently reference is believed to be upregulated due to hypoxia and in turn causes EPO expression by human hair follicles. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17540710). That's right erythropoetin, previously thought to only be produced by the kidneys and liver is also produced by hair follicles under hypoxic condition and this may lead to extra blood flow.
Furthermore this evidence of hypoxic induced hair growth is by no means a new thing, it has been known about for years (http://univisgroup.com/wp-content/u...em_cell_conditioned_media_and_hair_growth.pdf) the real challenge has been making it work for a treatment. This is why i stated earlier that i believe that this idea that l'oreal has of trying to induce the hypoxia via the 'stemoxydine' will ultimately be less successful than, say histogen, who have studied the growth factors produced by a hypoxic environment with hair follicles and are making a serum that contains these growth factors in order to enhance hair growth.
I apologise in advance for engaging in reductio ad absurdum but which do you believe will be more successful, creating hypoxia on a human head via a topical cream or using an injectable formula of pre-formed growth factors?

Hi Relax Im hilarious,
I say 'We' cause generally people don't express so many statements in a single post. The principle of forums is the interaction and it's not easy to respond to such posts, especially when we disagree...
Boldy alread respond you for VPA, I will just add that VPA is actually in clinical trials Phase II for human hair and that the study explains why VPA works locally but not per os.

VPA is an antiepileptic drug frequently prescribed due to its safety and effectiveness [10], [11]. Prolonged use of VPA resulted in several side effects including hair loss by oral intake; these adverse effects are attributed to zinc and biotinidase depletion [31]. We did not observe hair re-growth effects when VPA was orally administered to C57BL/6 mice (Figures S11A and S11B). However, topical application of VPA significantly promoted hair formation in murine models. The levels of b-catenin in the mice skin were specifically increased by topical application of VPA (Figure S11C).

I disagree with you when you say that "the laser comb is still yet to be proven to do anything even after plenty of research"
Several studies show positive results.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21812832
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2010.01833.x/full
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19366270
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/153082003769591209

For the transparency of l'oreal, you have to know that the product had only been registered few months ago http://trademark.markify.com/trademarks/ctm/stemoxydine/010494789
and it takes many months for the scientific journals to publish studies once they receive them. So I think we will see these works in some months.
I have already see the study you mentioned (hair growth induced by hypoxia) but it seems to be the only study it had been conducted on this subject until now.

 

[Relax Im hilarious]

Come on, it's easy to response to my long posts, i'm just droning on and i really love the sound of my own voice all you have to do is come back at me with some science, that the great thing about discussion and learning!

Saint-loup, in regards to the papers you posted on the laser comb:
1) The international journal of cosmetic surgery and aesthetic dermatology doesn't even exist anymore - it was discountinued in 2003 so that doesn't bode well for those who published in it
2) The paper in clinical drug investigation on the hairmax laser comb claims: 'significant improvements in overall hair regrowth were demonstrated in terms of patients' subjective assessment.' Subjective assessment of the patient? Not very scientific is it? Where are the hair counts, thickeness, new follicle count etc...?
3) Of the papers you cite, one even says 'more intensive studies are required to clarify the clinical applications of this treatment'
4) One of the papers studied the effects on alopecia in mice, as many people have mentioned many times, mice are not humans, they are a stepping stone and nothing more
5) The lasers used in the successful studies are 1,550-nm fractional erbium-glass lasers that are used to create microcoagulative wounds as they noticed that small wounds would grow extra hair. The lasers used in the hairmax comb (the only fda approved laser comb) are 650nm wavelength are therefore completely different, even the manufacturers of the lasercomb state that it works in a different way to the erbium glass laser, the hairmax laser comb claims to work by stimulating the follicle itself using the laser light, not by causing wound like the studies showed, so these studies have no relevance to laser that one can buy on the market.

I'm still unsold on the laser combs that you can buy, maybe the 1,550nm one has promise and if my lab mice ever go bald, i'll rush them down for a quick blast....

In regards to the transparency of l'oreal, they already have published papers on the subject, heck i even linked to one that was published in 2011. The trademarking of a product has nothing to do with publishing in journals, in fact often the research precedes the trademark and i'm sure before they went to market they will have conducted plenty of research so why do they not want to share more? It certainly would put everyone's mind at rest regarding their upcoming product and just enhance their selling power if they showed us a little more proof...

Boldy's earlier post has the paper on valproic acid that you are citing before. We were already discussing that and i was stating how the delivery agent was the issue that i believed needed to be solved. Also this paper is, once again, a murine model and they also only use human dermal papilla in vitro. Once again they are trying to use this to stimulate the cd34/cd200 progenitor cells, the same thing that histogen are trying to do except histogen seem to be further along. The phase two trial i believe you are referring to is this one http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01548066, with 40 participants that means its probably a phase 2a pilot trial, that explains the small number of participants and therefore this is a very initial test, but however the results go it will be very interesting to see what they come up with and fingers crossed its a positive result.

Odalbak: That's an interesting point, i remember reading somewhere (although i can't reference where so this is only anecdotal) that a hypoxic state caused by lack of blood flow does in fact cause more DHT and lead to increasing levels of hair loss, however the companies that we are talking about are not so much trying to limit blood flow but instead are focussing on using the products of hypoxia that usually stimulate the progenitor cells to signal more hair growth, something which seems to be missing in balding people.

 

[LawOfThelema]

This is interesting, but I thought hypoxia generated an increase of dht levels in the scalp…

Interestingly DHT has an anti-inflammatory effect under conditions of hypoxia.

 

[Saint-Loup]

Come on, it's easy to response to my long posts, i'm just droning on and i really love the sound of my own voice all you have to do is come back at me with some science, that the great thing about discussion and learning!

Saint-loup, in regards to the papers you posted on the laser comb:
1) The international journal of cosmetic surgery and aesthetic dermatology doesn't even exist anymore - it was discountinued in 2003 so that doesn't bode well for those who published in it
2) The paper in clinical drug investigation on the hairmax laser comb claims: 'significant improvements in overall hair regrowth were demonstrated in terms of patients' subjective assessment.' Subjective assessment of the patient? Not very scientific is it? Where are the hair counts, thickeness, new follicle count etc...?
3) Of the papers you cite, one even says 'more intensive studies are required to clarify the clinical applications of this treatment'
4) One of the papers studied the effects on alopecia in mice, as many people have mentioned many times, mice are not humans, they are a stepping stone and nothing more
5) The lasers used in the successful studies are 1,550-nm fractional erbium-glass lasers that are used to create microcoagulative wounds as they noticed that small wounds would grow extra hair. The lasers used in the hairmax comb (the only fda approved laser comb) are 650nm wavelength are therefore completely different, even the manufacturers of the lasercomb state that it works in a different way to the erbium glass laser, the hairmax laser comb claims to work by stimulating the follicle itself using the laser light, not by causing wound like the studies showed, so these studies have no relevance to laser that one can buy on the market.

I'm still unsold on the laser combs that you can buy, maybe the 1,550nm one has promise and if my lab mice ever go bald, i'll rush them down for a quick blast....

In regards to the transparency of l'oreal, they already have published papers on the subject, heck i even linked to one that was published in 2011. The trademarking of a product has nothing to do with publishing in journals, in fact often the research precedes the trademark and i'm sure before they went to market they will have conducted plenty of research so why do they not want to share more? It certainly would put everyone's mind at rest regarding their upcoming product and just enhance their selling power if they showed us a little more proof...

Boldy's earlier post has the paper on valproic acid that you are citing before. We were already discussing that and i was stating how the delivery agent was the issue that i believed needed to be solved. Also this paper is, once again, a murine model and they also only use human dermal papilla in vitro. Once again they are trying to use this to stimulate the cd34/cd200 progenitor cells, the same thing that histogen are trying to do except histogen seem to be further along. The phase two trial i believe you are referring to is this one http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01548066, with 40 participants that means its probably a phase 2a pilot trial, that explains the small number of participants and therefore this is a very initial test, but however the results go it will be very interesting to see what they come up with and fingers crossed its a positive result.

Odalbak: That's an interesting point, i remember reading somewhere (although i can't reference where so this is only anecdotal) that a hypoxic state caused by lack of blood flow does in fact cause more DHT and lead to increasing levels of hair loss, however the companies that we are talking about are not so much trying to limit blood flow but instead are focussing on using the products of hypoxia that usually stimulate the progenitor cells to signal more hair growth, something which seems to be missing in balding people.

Hello Relax Im hilarious
I don't understand why you don't care about my 3rd link which is "A randomized, double-blind, sham device-controlled, multicentre trial" study on HairMax LaserComb published in "Clinical drug investigation'", you can read the full paper here http://www.surviving-hairloss.com/support-files/hairmax-clinical.pdf and results are positive.

Mean baseline and change from baseline to 26 weeks in terminal hair density (hairs/cm2)
HairMax LaserComb®
Change from baseline
19.8

Sham device
Change from baseline
–7.6

p-Value <0.0001

Categorical changes from baseline to 26 weeks in terminal hair density
Change in hair density/cm2 [n (%)]
HairMax LaserComb®
>0 to 5: 6.9% (of the subjects)
>5 to 20: 47.2%
>20: 38.9%

subjects treated with the HairMax LaserComb® had a mean increase in terminal hair density of +19.8 hairs/cm2, while subjects in the sham device group had a mean decrease of –7.6 hairs/cm2 at the completion of the study (table II). This difference was significant (p < 0.0001).

Table III shows individual subject changes from baseline in terminal hair density, divided into six categories.
Only two subjects in the HairMax LaserComb® group (2.8%) had a decrease in hair density ≥5 hairs/cm2, whereas 26 subjects in the sham device group (65.0%) had a similar decrease.
Furthermore, 62 subjects in the HairMax LaserComb® group (86.1%) had an increase in hair density >5 hairs/cm2, while only two subjects in the sham device (5.0%) group had such an increase.

And I don't understand why you said "One of the papers studied the effects on alopecia in mice, as many people have mentioned many times, mice are not humans" while the paper in question also deals with humans in fact (20 participants). There are even pictures in it. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1524-4725.2010.01833.x/full
Actually I didn't choose Mice papers when there are plenty of these. I agree with you this kind of papers doesn't definitively prove the products efficiency.

Then, I can't find the 2011 L'oreal paper you are talking about.

About VPA, I'm not sure it's only a 2a phase and there will be a 2b phase, VPA is commercialized since many years and a phase 3 may be sufficient. But i'm not a specialist in Korean FDA.

 

[Relax Im hilarious]

SL, I never said i didn't care about the third paper but the entire study was sponsored by lexington, the guys who make the hairmax comb, funny isn't it that they gave it a good review? Their own product, who would've thought that? The lead scientist is employed by lexington llc (hairmax producer) and kept on retainer, the other was employed by lexington for this study. The only scientist with nothing to declare on this paper was the statistician. I'm not trying to suggest anything dodgy here... heck wait a minute, yes i am, I don't trust this paper one bit.

This is the paper sponsored by l'oreal http://www.jci.org/articles/view/44478/pdf. But then like with the hairmax paper, this paper was part sponsored by l'oreal so got to take that into account.

Your paper with 20 people, i stated in detail why the laser they use (1550nm) is nothing to do with hairmax laser combs as they are completely different things and therefore should not be compared like you are doing. Also they have this cruicial line in the paper which i believe warrants further dicussion:
'This study is significant because we verified through animal testing that fractional laser treatment had an effect on hair stimulation. The application of fractional laser treatment to men with receding hair validated these hair stimulation effects, although the mechanism of action was not clear, and there are limits to its application as a clinical treatment because of the side effects'

For the VPA, even if they make it through the phase 2 trial (regardless of 2a or 2b) it will take some to get through phase 3, vpa is not commercialised for use in hair growth over many years and therefore will need a phase 3. The FDA is only American and has no bearing on korea, although like yourself, i know very little about how the phase 3 trials work in korea so i can't say where they will go from there.

Don't get me wrong i find the studies you are posting very interesting i just disagree with what you are saying about the laser comb and am yet to see any proof from anything you are posting that people should spend a few hundred pounds/dollar/euros on the hairmax products. Medical laser may have promise but the commercial ones seem kinda rubbish. I'm very interested in the stuff about valproic acid though, that does seem to be an interesting treatment for the future and it will be interesting to see how the korea study turns out.

- - - Updated - - -

I just wanted to quickly apologise on this thread to everyone for kinda taking it off topic onto laser combs and everything. Also, saint-loup, if it seems like i've been arguing with you and acting like a bit of an a**h**, i apologise, i was not intending to, what you've been saying has been really interesting, i just love a good science debate and tend to go a little overboard sometimes! :smack:
Back on to topic(ish) in regards to the l'oreal product that is coming out i fully intend to use myself as a bit of a guinea pig for it and put their hypoxia compound to the test! In September (or whenever it's out) i'm going to commit to using this for 6 months and i'll post my results in the thread i have on the tell your story section and keep everyone updated, i figure at around 90 euros per month it's not to bad to trial it and hope for the best, all i need to do now is wait for the release....

 

[Saint-Loup]

Hi RIH
I haven't seen this paper was sponsored by l'oreal. thank you.
But as you can see it's the same team (Cotsarelis, Garza et al.) who made the article on PGD2, and it's thanks to this work they discovered PGD2.
Furthermore I just saw that paper on PGD2 is also sponsored by l'Oreal in the same way.

Funding: [...]; and L’Oreal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3319975
And these two papers are available by everyone for free. So it shows l'Oreal seems to be more transparent, open and up to date than you are saying.



- - - Updated - - -
No problem your point of view is very interesting and your arguments are relevant. It interets me at least.

 

[Relax Im hilarious]

SL, you're right they are releasing material in published studies, it was really the pictures of extra hair growth that they have claimed that i would like to see. I'm not saying they are not being open and we have a lot to thank l'oreal for in regards to funding some really important research i just would like to see a little more from them in the public domain. But heck, i'm going to try it anyway so i guess it doesn't really matter i suppose.

 

[abcdefg]

It is kind of exciting that the pgd 2 discovery is finally pointing researchers in possibly the right direction to figuring out how androgens actually cause the hair loss on a deeper level like how the balance of these prostaglandins might actually be the true cause of male pattern baldness. At the very least it should be a way to stop male pattern baldness although I think stopping androgens would also work.

 

[Sparky4444]

You know what, if this Loreal thing is a once-a-day application that will stop my thinning, then I'm down with that....I know there's lots of guys who need regrowth pretty substantially, and my temples and frontal area is receding pretty noticeably now...but I could handle a transplant for that area if I can stop my crown from thinning further...

...they must feel confident to price this thing that high and make these really boastful claims because if this tanks, then that will stick -- especially with the surge in new information and potential new products that are around the corner...