I believe this is a more complete look on finasteride.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2006.00053.x/pdf
I won't be addressing all the points for obvious reasons. But I'd be happy to discuss any thoughts you might have.
Lol?? Finasteride WTF??!
- Thread starter BrianP
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I believe this is a more complete look on finasteride.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1527-3458.2006.00053.x/pdf
I won't be addressing all the points for obvious reasons. But I'd be happy to discuss any thoughts you might have.
I think anyone considering taking Finasteride should indeed read the paper linked above. It says:
"However, a substantial body of evidence exists which points to serious and potentially ill-health effects of 5α-RIs' therapy. These include loss or reduced libido, erectile dysfunction, orgasmic and ejaculatory dysfunction (Table 2) [99], development of high grade PCa tumors (Fig. 4), potential negative cardiovascular events, and depression. The side effects are potentially harmful in some individuals and in young men may be persistent or irreversible [100]. The argument that the benefits of these drugs outweighs the risks is slowly eroding in the face of new emerging scientific evidence from preclinical (Figs. 2, ,3;3; Table 1) and clinical studies (Table 2). The available data demonstrate that such drugs do pose serious adverse effects, especially in a subset of men who may have the predisposition to be affected severely."
I was thinking of starting finasteride, but I'm reconsidering.
^the last part of the above brings about an interesting topic/discussion... "especially in a subset of men who may have the predisposition to be affected severely."
granted, this isn't a definitive yes or no, as the wording is iffy ("who MAY have the predisposition..."), but have we discussed the possibility that those who experience severe ED/libido drops when on finasteride could in fact be predisposed to having ED to begin with? And that the propecia is kick-starting the inevitable outcome early?
...and if this is true, then does that mean that those with ED predisposition have bodies which naturally behave quite differently than others? i.e., for a sake of argument, let's say that those who experience ED naturally, without finasteride, rely more heavily on T/E/DHT levels to in order to perform correctly, than those who don't naturally experience ED...and that because they naturally work "different", then that's why the use of propecia brings this abnormalities to light? i haven't done research on this, but i think this would fit well, knowing that natural ED typically occurs later in life, which matches up with when T levels often begin to decrease in your later years..
granted, this isn't a definitive yes or no, as the wording is iffy ("who MAY have the predisposition..."), but have we discussed the possibility that those who experience severe ED/libido drops when on finasteride could in fact be predisposed to having ED to begin with? And that the propecia is kick-starting the inevitable outcome early?
...and if this is true, then does that mean that those with ED predisposition have bodies which naturally behave quite differently than others? i.e., for a sake of argument, let's say that those who experience ED naturally, without finasteride, rely more heavily on T/E/DHT levels to in order to perform correctly, than those who don't naturally experience ED...and that because they naturally work "different", then that's why the use of propecia brings this abnormalities to light? i haven't done research on this, but i think this would fit well, knowing that natural ED typically occurs later in life, which matches up with when T levels often begin to decrease in your later years..
PreCueBall
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Is it possible that a lot of the negative side effects are due to Free Testosterone converting to estrogen instead of DHT? If so, has anyone here taken anti-estrogens (pharmaceutical or natural) while taking finasteride to offset the side effects? I think another potential cause for the side effects is taking 1 mg everyday. It seems like its total over kill from what I've read about 0.05mg being just as effective. Check this chart:
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Wouldn't it make more sense to space out the dosage relative to this? Perhaps let DHT build back up in your system slightly then give it the ol' kick in the face back down? FYI I'm not on finasteride but doing my research before I decide to take the plunge. Along with libido and ED I'm worried about gyno as I've had the little bumps under my nips (50% of males get it in puberty I guess) since I was 16 and I'm now 25. I'm also active and like to pump the iron in the gym so I don't want to lose gains (no roids though).
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Wouldn't it make more sense to space out the dosage relative to this? Perhaps let DHT build back up in your system slightly then give it the ol' kick in the face back down? FYI I'm not on finasteride but doing my research before I decide to take the plunge. Along with libido and ED I'm worried about gyno as I've had the little bumps under my nips (50% of males get it in puberty I guess) since I was 16 and I'm now 25. I'm also active and like to pump the iron in the gym so I don't want to lose gains (no roids though).
I posed this question in a thread I opened on finasteride and gyno & dosing.
Suffice it to say that any time the question is posed there is very little response. I take it as a sign that the state of knowledge on the question is basically nil. Some people who have the time and inclination get tested regularly for estrogen and T levels, and those with abnormally high estrogen take some serious pharmaceuticals for it. But that is not recommended, I gather, for more "normal" users of finasteride.
What natural alternatives are there? All I've heard suggested is zinc, and that only in kind of a throwaway "maybe" fashion. (I thought zinc was for T anyway - and, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't upping one's testosterone when so much of it is being freed up by the finasteride only increase the conversion of it into estrogen, and thus increase, in the end, one's estrogen levels?)
isishearmyplea
Experienced Member
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zinc inhibits aromatase, there isnt much you can do abt the rise in E, i did a few research and the ways to reduce is to follow an anti estrogenic diet(google it) and to reduce fat( since fat produces E and vice versa). I really dont know how effective it is, the meds for anti E have side effects and are prescribed to cancer patients, and yes the knowledge is quite limited on thr upregulation of E on finasteride. Just take your meds nd forget about. i dont think there is much you can do. perhaps find a good endocrinologist who is willing to work with you. I dont think you would find much on these forums or the internet for that matter on this topic. However i would love to be proved wrong, good day.
Is it possible that a lot of the negative side effects are due to Free Testosterone converting to estrogen instead of DHT? If so, has anyone here taken anti-estrogens (pharmaceutical or natural) while taking finasteride to offset the side effects? I think another potential cause for the side effects is taking 1 mg everyday. It seems like its total over kill from what I've read about 0.05mg being just as effective. Check this chart:
- - - Updated - - -
Wouldn't it make more sense to space out the dosage relative to this? Perhaps let DHT build back up in your system slightly then give it the ol' kick in the face back down? FYI I'm not on finasteride but doing my research before I decide to take the plunge. Along with libido and ED I'm worried about gyno as I've had the little bumps under my nips (50% of males get it in puberty I guess) since I was 16 and I'm now 25. I'm also active and like to pump the iron in the gym so I don't want to lose gains (no roids though).
Yes, sometimes. Although taking AIs is not a solution. Losing weight is and fixing diet is.
Chances of gyno are very small. I wouldn't worry. You need a second puberty on finasteride to induce gyno again.
What do you want to hear? Chances of gyno on finasteride if you are healthy are close to zero. You might have a higher chance getting in a car crash.
I respect your comments immensely RedStar, so I'm not trying to be contentious.
I simply wanted knowledgeable people such as yourself to chime in on the anti-estrogen question. I was prompted to ask not only because it's a common worry that prevents people from getting on finasteride - and you seem to be saying, with proper knowledge, such worry should be dampened considerably - but also because I just started finasteride, and about the only side-effect I've noticed (if indeed it is a side-effect and not just psychological) is a persistent feeling of soreness and heaviness in my chest/breasts.
So I wanted to hear 1) If that is an early warning sign of gyno (if gyno can be caught early, as it were)?, and 2) if so, do we have knowledge of effective ways to manage the estrogen increase outside of pharmaceuticals?
Not just for my sake, but for others who are still deterred by potential gyno, it's very helpful when well-informed people such as yourself chime in on these questions.
Just to be clear: your answer to the second question is that supplement-wise there isn't much one can do; rather, the best thing to do is diet and cut down body fat. Correct?
I simply wanted knowledgeable people such as yourself to chime in on the anti-estrogen question. I was prompted to ask not only because it's a common worry that prevents people from getting on finasteride - and you seem to be saying, with proper knowledge, such worry should be dampened considerably - but also because I just started finasteride, and about the only side-effect I've noticed (if indeed it is a side-effect and not just psychological) is a persistent feeling of soreness and heaviness in my chest/breasts.
So I wanted to hear 1) If that is an early warning sign of gyno (if gyno can be caught early, as it were)?, and 2) if so, do we have knowledge of effective ways to manage the estrogen increase outside of pharmaceuticals?
Not just for my sake, but for others who are still deterred by potential gyno, it's very helpful when well-informed people such as yourself chime in on these questions.
Just to be clear: your answer to the second question is that supplement-wise there isn't much one can do; rather, the best thing to do is diet and cut down body fat. Correct?
Gyno should only be a problem if you're heavily predisposed to it, or already have early stages of gyno. AIs are not a good idea because they are only useful to reverse recent gyno developments, and not use them for the long term to prevent gyno. So losing fat is the best solution to reduce the aromatization process, since 70% of male's estrogen comes from adipose tissue, primarily from the midsection. Exercise like cardio and weight lifting helps metabolize estrogen as well. A DHT cream or a 4-8 week AI course can reverse gyno in their early stages. Keep checking regulary if you notice soreness or protruding areolas. I used to get nipple itches in the first few months, but almost a year later, nothing progressed.
Very helpful. I worry because when I packed on some pounds - didn't get fat, but got puffy, if you know what I mean - I did get mild gyno-ish type breasts. I just assumed it was normal for guys who pack on some fat - does that necessarily mean one is predisposed to gyno?
I think I'm going to start hitting the weights and trying to do some cardio.
One more question: what exactly would a 4-8 week AI course consist of? I'm thinking of doing that in tandem with beginning to cut down my fat.
It might just be genetic distribution of fat. But a lot of people who have gyno also have pretty obvious fat accumulation on the chest as well.
I'm not knowledgeable on doses, you have to research that yourself. Common AIs are Arimidex and Letrozole. Nolvadex is a common estrogen antagonist.
You should go on some of the steroid forums and take notes. But I remember something along the lines of 0.25 mg of Arimidex 1-2x/week should kill estrogen in a normal male.
But do your research first. We need estrogen to function properly too!
Do you think we enjoy taking finasteride?
Much obliged. I'm not going to fool around with the estrogen beyond dieting and lifting; I was just curious. I realize it won't do much, but I think I'm going to start zinc anyway, just for peace of mind - I have a bad diet anyway, so getting some zinc in me shouldn't hurt.
Thanks for the info.
isishearmyplea
Experienced Member
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hey bro!! make sure your zinc has some amount of copper also.
Ok, so can you give me advice on what to take/how often/dosage? I'm really curious about this. I don't want to just into my local pharmacy, buy some zinc and take it. What sort of zinc has copper in it? How much should I take and how often?
isishearmyplea
Experienced Member
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zinc and copper compete with each other in the digestive tract for absorption therefore excess zinc might casue copper deficiency. i think(READ SOMWEHERE) it is safe to take daily 50 mg zinc. i used to ( very costly :/, 1200 INR for 3 months) take 15 mg zinc with 2 mg copper. although i am not sure about the long term implication of taking this mineral constantly.
adults generally require 10 11 mg zinc daily and i some nutritionist say that zinc is probably the most common deficient mineral
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here is the link of the zinc i used to take, it had 2 mg copper.
http://www.biovea.com/IN/product_detail.aspx?NAME=ZINC-15mg-120-Capsules&PID=1154&OS=212
change your location to HK(i guess) on the website. you may find cheaper alternatives in your locality. good luck.
adults generally require 10 11 mg zinc daily and i some nutritionist say that zinc is probably the most common deficient mineral
.here is the link of the zinc i used to take, it had 2 mg copper.
http://www.biovea.com/IN/product_detail.aspx?NAME=ZINC-15mg-120-Capsules&PID=1154&OS=212
change your location to HK(i guess) on the website. you may find cheaper alternatives in your locality. good luck.