Looking for all natural treatments.

[Follically Challenged]

Maybe beta-sitosterol acts as an androgen receptor blocker as has been suggested by here.

http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/index.c ... 8583107BE2

Which would explain why serum levels of DHT would nto be lower. In fact, you'd think they'd be higher. But if you tested a specific area for DHT (like the prostate, or say maybe, the hair follicle) there would be less DHT because of the receptor blocking action of the BS?

 

[Guest]

Maybe beta-sitosterol acts as an androgen receptor blocker as has been suggested by here.

http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/index.c ... 8583107BE2

Great point, and great link.

Which would explain why serum levels of DHT would nto be lower. In fact, you'd think they'd be higher. But if you tested a specific area for DHT (like the prostate, or say maybe, the hair follicle) there would be less DHT because of the receptor blocking action of the BS?

Makes sense.

 

[ripple-effect]

Interesting site: http://www.freewebs.com/immortalhair/my ... egimen.htm

 

[Guest]

Nice. Thanks Ripple.

Unfortunately I don't recognize a lot of the supplements that guy is taking.

 

[ripple-effect]

"The combination of finasteride and SP would be very interesting. SP is reputed by some to work by downregulating the sensitivity of the androgen receptors. finasteride works by reducing DHT via 5-alpha reductase II ( but my dermatologist told me that in finasteride users the body compensates by upregulating the sensitivity of androgen receptors.

If the reputed action of SP is correct ( there are research scientists that undoubtedly know what true hormonal changes are caused by SP - but apparently this is mystical /top secret information - youd have better luck finding Jesus's grave site or the arc of the covanent ! ) then SP and finasteride would be an awesome combination !"

What do you guys think about this comment? Does it have any value?
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

 

[ripple-effect]

A suggested natural approach to stopping hair loss is @ the bottom of the page:
http://www.immortalhair.homestead.com/f ... s_Book.htm


PROGESTERONE- is not a feminine hormone at all since it opposes and balances excess estrogens in our bodies. Estradiol and estrone are the feminizing hormones. Men over 50 literally have more estrogen in their blood than their post-menopausal wives! This excess estrogen is a cause of baldness, obesity, impotence and other male aging problems. Men with prostate disorders use small amounts of transdermal progesterone for better prostate function and metabolism.
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

 

[ripple-effect]

Hmmm....can this be true?


"A University of Southern California study found that 8 out of 27 men taking Finasteride for enlarged prostate, developed tumors within one year, despite the drug lowering DHT by 67%. It is my view that unidentified elevated levels of estrogen in the prostate could be the problem, not DHT. While Finasteride lowers DHT, it can cause impotency. In contrast,beta sitosterol in saw palmetto may be more effective to restore urine flow, without impotency. Beta Sitosterol improves metabolism of DHT and androgen receptor binding, while Finasteride does not.Even though Finasteride can reduce DHT in the prostate up to 80%, it only decreases the prostate size by about 20%. Some 60-65% of men get no improvement with Finasteride! Over 5% of Finasteride users suffer decreased libido, impotence, and ejaculatory disorders. "

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

Reverting back to your post Erik D about blocking both estrogen and DHT...if you notice Zack's "successful" regimen....it consists of:

Min DHT shampoo system
Nizoral twice a week
Grape Seed Extract (circulation/health)
Flax Seed Supp (anti estrogen/health)
Probiotic (Digestion perfection)
Beta Sisterol (Anti DHT) as effective as propecia for me so far
Ginko (circulation)

Check out the ingredients in the min shampoo...hmmmm its convincing:

Procapil®
Helps slow the aging effects of hair by lessening DHT production, thus improving irrigation of the hair follicle and stimulating the production of anchoring molecules.
Copper Y-3
Introduces copper ions into the hair follicle area to inhibit DHT production in the scalp. Helps activate the natural repair process that rebuilds and renews hair.
Saw Palmetto
A topical herbal used to improve skin and scalp conditions. Studies have shown that to be an effective anti-androgen. Saw Palmetto lowers DHT levels by inhibiting 5 alpha-reductase and receptor sites on cell membranes required for cells to absorb DHT.
Zinc Sulfate
Essential mineral that has shown to inhibit production of DHT.
Biotin
A key component in the healthy hair manufacturing process. Bitotin is commonly recommended by dermatologists as a supplement to patients as part of their medical treatment for hair loss.
Azelaic Acid
Works as a 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor and hair stimulant.
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)
Organic acid with proven antioxidant properties.
Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E)
Helps protect against damaging effects of free radicals.

 

[ripple-effect]

I also wonder if it's okay to take finasteride with these supplements or would I have to pause finasteride? It would be nice to know how many mg's of each supplement your are taking and if each supplement you take is purely the supplement you listed.

 

[Guest]

"The combination of finasteride and SP would be very interesting.

In light of the "big three rules"/"natural stuff is sh*t" dogma, it's interesting, but you couldn't get me to take a manmade, synthetic, unnatural, chemical concoction, especially one that could cause sperm, erectile or reproductive problems, even if you paid me.

A friend of mine who's on Propecia, and has coincidentally had serious erectile and urination problems, sent me some Propecia when I was complaining about my hair loss... I took one half tablet, trusted my instincts, and flushed that garbage down the toilet. They can't fool me with that crap.

SP is reputed by some to work by downregulating the sensitivity of the androgen receptors.

That's an interesting aspect of it's possible action. I've read that SP accelerates the breakdown and excretion of DHT, so maybe that decresed sensitivity of the androgen receptors is a reason for that.

finasteride works by reducing DHT via 5-alpha reductase II ( but my dermatologist told me that in finasteride users the body compensates by upregulating the sensitivity of androgen receptors.

That wouldn't surprise me. The body has a strange way of overriding any chemical alterations made to it, such as the example of Prozac poop out, and the decreased levels of natural endorphin secretion in response to the introduction of synthetic endorphins (pharmaceutical narcotics), requiring higher and higher doses, resulting in physical dependence.

The question in the case you bring up, is why the body would feel the need to increase the sensitivity of androgen receptors (to DHT?, and in follicles and prostate?), in response to decreased DHT production.

If your dermatologist is correct, and he may very well be, but it causes me to wonder why the body would insist on making alterations to cause those androgen receptors to take up more DHT?

That's strange... it almost like saying the body wants to uptake DHT into androgen receptors, even when there's less DHT. Why?

If the reputed action of SP is correct ( there are research scientists that undoubtedly know what true hormonal changes are caused by SP - but apparently this is mystical /top secret information - youd have better luck finding Jesus's grave site or the arc of the covanent ! )

Well, they have a responsibity to the public to give up the goods, because we need that information to figure out what the hell is going on inside our bodies. Maybe one of our resident chemistry or medical research experts can dig up that information somewhere.

then SP and finasteride would be an awesome combination !"

If you don't mind the potential finasteride side effects.

Why not just use a potent natural 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor instead (or more than one), and in conjuction with SP?

What do you guys think about this comment? Does it have any value?
http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

I'm going to have to take the time to read through that more closely later, but I appreciate you posting another hair loss discussion forum that doesn't appear, at first glance, to be as hostile to alternative approaches to hair loss.

Do you have any other such alternative medicine friendly hair loss forums you can recommend?

Thanks.

E-

 

[Guest]

A suggested natural approach to stopping hair loss is @ the bottom of the page:
http://www.immortalhair.homestead.com/f ... s_Book.htm


PROGESTERONE- is not a feminine hormone at all since it opposes and balances excess estrogens in our bodies. Estradiol and estrone are the feminizing hormones. Men over 50 literally have more estrogen in their blood than their post-menopausal wives! This excess estrogen is a cause of baldness, obesity, impotence and other male aging problems. Men with prostate disorders use small amounts of transdermal progesterone for better prostate function and metabolism.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

I don't know the first thing about progesterone, but I'm very wary to begin messing with that when I haven't even got this T, DHT, Estrogen thing figured out yet. It's just one more variable in what appears to be a very complex hormonal mechanism.

 

[Guest]

Hmmm....can this be true?

"A University of Southern California study found that 8 out of 27 men taking Finasteride for enlarged prostate, developed tumors within one year,

That wouldn't surprise me in the least.

despite the drug lowering DHT by 67%. It is my view that unidentified elevated levels of estrogen in the prostate could be the problem, not DHT.

I do recall reading something years back about estrogen having some relation to tumor growth, but it was in passing, and not relevant to my situation, so I paid it little attention at the time.

While Finasteride lowers DHT, it can cause impotency.

Exactly. It did that to a friend of mine, so why would I even want to consider taking that? To grow a few hairs on my head, or just halt the hair loss? No thanks.

In contrast,beta sitosterol in saw palmetto may be more effective to restore urine flow, without impotency. Beta Sitosterol improves metabolism of DHT and androgen receptor binding, while Finasteride does not.

That's exactly what I read in one book, that SP accelerates the breakdown and excretion of DHT, and interferes with it's ability to attach to the follicle and prostate receptors.

That could explain why plasma DHT levels could remain relatively unchanged in the presence of SP, while still seeing positive effects in follicles and the prostate.

Even though Finasteride can reduce DHT in the prostate up to 80%, it only decreases the prostate size by about 20%. Some 60-65% of men get no improvement with Finasteride! Over 5% of Finasteride users suffer decreased libido, impotence, and ejaculatory disorders."

Those are unacceptable risks in my opinion.

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=72504&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=

Wow. That link is very interesting. I'm looking forward to reading it in detail.

Reverting back to your post Erik D about blocking both estrogen and DHT...if you notice Zack's "successful" regimen....it consists of:

Min DHT shampoo system [what's min?]
Nizoral twice a week
Grape Seed Extract (circulation/health)
Flax Seed Supp (anti estrogen/health)
Probiotic (Digestion perfection)
Beta Sisterol (Anti DHT) as effective as propecia for me so far
Ginko (circulation)

Check out the ingredients in the min shampoo...hmmmm its convincing:

Procapil®
Helps slow the aging effects of hair by lessening DHT production, thus improving irrigation of the hair follicle and stimulating the production of anchoring molecules.
Copper Y-3
Introduces copper ions into the hair follicle area to inhibit DHT production in the scalp. Helps activate the natural repair process that rebuilds and renews hair.
Saw Palmetto
A topical herbal used to improve skin and scalp conditions. Studies have shown that to be an effective anti-androgen. Saw Palmetto lowers DHT levels by inhibiting 5 alpha-reductase and receptor sites on cell membranes required for cells to absorb DHT.

Sounds interesting, but I'm a little reluctant to be putting chemicals, or copper ions or peptides, or any other chemical manmade concoctions on my skin, which is known to absorb most of what we put on it.

Aluminum in deodorants is suspected be the cause of higher than normal concentrations of aluminum in the brains of Alzheimers patients, so there's no way I'm putting any manmade, mineral concoction or isolates in or on my body. No f*****g way.

Zinc Sulfate
Essential mineral that has shown to inhibit production of DHT.

Weren't some people trying to tell us earlier that increased excretion of zinc couldn't have any effect on hair loss?

And now you've just confirmed what I've read in numerous books, that Zinc is a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor.

Obviously zinc depletion would lead to a cessation of it's ability to inhibit 5-alpha-reductase, and thus, to increased DHT levels, leading to possible increased hair loss.

If we spent half as much time in rational discussion, as we do refuting the bullshit of intellectual troglodytes, we'd probably have this thing figured out by now.

Biotin
A key component in the healthy hair manufacturing process. Bitotin is commonly recommended by dermatologists as a supplement to patients as part of their medical treatment for hair loss.

I guess dermatologists don't know what they're talking about either, eh? lol

Azelaic Acid
Works as a 5 alpha-reductase inhibitor and hair stimulant.
Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C)
Organic acid with proven antioxidant properties.
Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E)
Helps protect against damaging effects of free radicals.

I've heard the same thing about Azelaic acid and it's 5-alpha-reductase inhibition properties, but I don't mess around with topicals at this time, because as far as I can tell, the hair loss problem didn't original topically, it originated internally, so I prefer to treat conditions from where they originated.

My philosophy is, if there's an internal problem causing the hair loss in the first place, as long as you correct that, the hair loss will subside and I believe, regrow. Treating things topically is another manifestation of this fetish we have in Traditional Western Medicine of treating outward symptoms, and ignoring, or minimizing internal, root causes.

As an aside, I've read the Japanese had little to no hair loss problems, until they adopted Western diets, and now their hair loss and obesity problems are approaching the same rate as ours... so there's got to be some connection there.

It's well known that diet effects the hormonal balances in the body, so that is one factor that could actually be the underlying cause of a lot of this stuff.

But most people don't want to look at those things... they want to just keep living the same high stress, high saturated fat, high refined carbohydrate, SAD (Standard American Diets), and just pop a pill or rub some chemical on their head to make it all go away.

It is the ultimate in laziness and self deception, and I will not participate in it, or listen to the self-righteous and ignorant intimidation of those who do, and insist that the rest of us should as well.

Really, f*** them and their chemical cocktails. Let them grow cancerous, and impotent, and die from wallowing in their poisons and carcinogens, if that's what they really want. But they will not drag me down into that death chamber with them. f*****g vampires.

 

[Guest]

ripple-effect,

Check this line out from one of those links you provided:

"It is important to realize that any synthetic drug such as minoxidil simply treats the symptom while ignoring the cause."

Exactly.

From here: http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

 

[ripple-effect]

ripple-effect,

Check this line out from one of those links you provided:

"It is important to realize that any synthetic drug such as minoxidil simply treats the symptom while ignoring the cause."

Exactly.

From here: http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

Yes, I am fully aware of that. That's one reason I cringe everytime I use minoxidil on my head and eventually stopped using it. I only used it when I felt desperate because nothing else was working and I was/am losing ground. The hair that is created by minoxidil is called "minoxidil hairs" and can only survive with consistent application of minoxidil throughout one's lifetime. The real hairs will eventually die off...if not protected from DHT which minoxidil does not provide. That is why the "big 3" consists of minoxidil AND propecia. Your philosophy of attacking it solely from the inside makes alot of sense to me considering I have not experienced success with any topical. The only "success" I've ever seen came from minoxidil which doesn't protect your real hair as previously stated. When I say that I'm not talking about myself either...I'm referring to other users.

P.S. You did not reply to my other post concerning your thoughts:

Reverting back to your post Erik D about blocking both estrogen and DHT...if you notice Zack's "successful" regimen....it consists of:

Min DHT shampoo system [what's min?]
Nizoral twice a week
Grape Seed Extract (circulation/health)
Flax Seed Supp (anti estrogen/health)
Probiotic (Digestion perfection)
Beta Sisterol (Anti DHT) as effective as propecia for me so far
Ginko (circulation)

What supplements do you plan to take and what does your regimen consist of including any habits such as avoiding meat, etc.

 

[Guest]

Yes, I am fully aware of that. That's one reason I cringe everytime I use minoxidil on my head and eventually stopped using it. I only used it when I felt desperate because nothing else was working and I was/am losing ground. The hair that is created by minoxidil is called "minoxidil hairs" and can only survive with consistent application of minoxidil throughout one's lifetime.

Which is unacceptable.

The real hairs will eventually die off...if not protected from DHT which minoxidil does not provide. That is why the "big 3" consists of minoxidil AND propecia. Your philosophy of attacking it solely from the inside makes alot of sense to me considering I have not experienced success with any topical. The only "success" I've ever seen came from minoxidil which doesn't protect your real hair as previously stated. When I say that I'm not talking about myself either...I'm referring to other users.

P.S. You did not reply to my other post concerning your thoughts:

[quote:19hij2bp]Reverting back to your post Erik D about blocking both estrogen and DHT...if you notice Zack's "successful" regimen....it consists of:

Min DHT shampoo system [what's min?]
Nizoral twice a week
Grape Seed Extract (circulation/health)
Flax Seed Supp (anti estrogen/health)
Probiotic (Digestion perfection)
Beta Sisterol (Anti DHT) as effective as propecia for me so far
Ginko (circulation)

What supplements do you plan to take and what does your regimen consist of including any habits such as avoiding meat, etc.[/quote:19hij2bp]

Ok, I see what you mean...

First, when I was eating an organic vegan diet, full of stuff like avocados, unsalted olives, fruit, honey, veggies, especially greens, nuts, seeds, healthy oils like olive, flax and hemp, and no meat, dairy, refined grains, sugar, caffeine, alcohol or preservatives, I felt like million bucks.

But I've fallen away from that lifestyle because I don't live near an organic store, and I'm too lazy, cheap and undisciplined to buy and eat that stuff right now. I will get back to that at some point, and the best book I ever found for adopting that kind of lifestyle is:

"The Sunfood Diet Success System" by David Wolfe

Link: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_/002- ... avid+wolfe

There are 2 versions, the newer blue cover one at item #1, and the older green cover one at item #5. I couldn't find my old copy, so I ordered a used copy of the older, green covered one, because it's awesome, and I'm not sure how much, if anything, has been added to the newer edition.

But, until I can get back into that healthy lifestyle (with yoga, stretching, biking, calisthenics, etc...), I'm just trying to hold steady with a kind of mediocre diet... some decent food, some junk, and some fasting to keep my system from getting overload with the garbage and chemicals. I can't continue like this for much longer, with this see-sawing, so I'll change soon.

For now, the supplements and suppliers I've been using for hair loss have been:

1) Saw Palmetto Extract, 320 mg, 85-95% FA, 2x/day

2) Pygeum Extract, 100 mg, 12% Phytosterols,
2-3x/day

3) Green Tea Extract, 150 mg, stdzd to 50% polyphenols, 2-3x/day

4) Ginkgo Biloba, 60 mg, stdzd to 24% flavones, 2-3x/day

5) Nettle Root, 500 mg, whole root, 2-3x/day

6) Pumpkin Seed Oil, 1000 mg, 3x/day

7) Bee Pollen, 400 mg, 2-3x/day

8) HairX, w/ Fo-Ti and 17 other ingredients, 2-3x/day

And I just added for general health:

9) Co-Enzyme Q-10, 30 mg, 1-2/day

10) Fish Oil EFA's (Super EPA (&DHA)), 2-3x/day

11) Whole Food Multi, 2-3x/day

12) Dual Ginseng Plus, 400 mg, 1 cap/2-3x/day

13) Barleans Flaxseed Oil, 16 oz bottle, 1 Tbsp./day

14) Nutiva Hempseed Oil, 16 oz bottle, 1 Tbsp./day

15) Extra Virgin Olive Oil, 1-3 Tbsp./day

16) Ideally drinking a lot of clean well, spring or distilled water (1/2 - 1 gal/day), to assist the organs in absorbing, processing and eliminating all these supplements.

17) I just ordered Beta-Sitosterol and Super-Oxide-Dismutase for the first time, and am looking forward to adding them to my regimen.

When I was taking the SP, Pygeum, Green Tea, Nettle + HairX consistently, I was seeing regrowth, but because of financial and mood problems, I wasn't consistent with that regimen. And at the very beginning, the HairX and SP alone seemed to start working within 3-4 weeks.

Now I've ordered all this new stuff, and intend on using it all consistently, month after month, and then transitioning into a super healthy diet, and getting back into my anti-stress, circulation and breathing yoga, tai chi and cardio exercises.

I also plan on massively alkalizing my body, with lots of green vegetables (I just started drinking one 1 oz. shots of frozen wheatgrass per day from Whole Foods, to start alkalizing my body).

I did notice some serious progress for the few months I was taking the HairX, Saw Palmetto Extract, and Nettle Root, so I'm highly encouraged by that. I think the HairX is a good product, and I get it from here, the cheapest place I've found on the web:

http://www.vitaminlife.com/product-exec ... t_id/35563

Most of the other stuff I get from Swanson, except for the Green Tea Extract, which is cheaper at Wal-Mart, the Pygeum, which I've been getting from Puritan's Pride on the web, and the Flax, Hemp and Olive Oils, which I've been getting from Whole Foods, but will be looking to get much cheaper on the web next purchase.

I tried a whole bunch of topical stuff... some root stimulator from JASON, some "Goldilocks Hair Oil" from some place on the web (and I'd mix SP softgels in with it), and then that lasercomb abomination, which seemed to give me crushing migraines.

I gave up the topicals because they were messy, smelly, sticky, slimy and I don't think they did too much, though there was one alcohol based, non-oily SP extract I got from whole foods that I felt was doing something, but I don't know for sure. I just got tired of applying crap to my head multiple times a day.

Then I figured this problem must have resulted from some internal conditions in my body, so that the correct way to fix it was to remedy the internal conditions, give my body the healthy food, nutrients and herbs and supplements it needs, and it will just repair the problem from the inside out.

That's my philosophy now, and I'm going to stick to it, and keep adding healthy things until my hair grows back, and I will never give up until it does.

I hope this information helps you in some way. If you have any questions or feedback on any of it, Im all ears. I always enjoy conversing with intelligent and civilized people like yourself.

Sincerely,
Erik D.

 

[bubka]

wow, so you can now go bald and spend all the time and money each day with a worthless regime, TOTALLY AWESOME!

if anyone says that regime will work they are not even close to being intelligent

 

[Guest]

wow, so you can now go bald and spend all the time and money each day with a worthless regime, TOTALLY AWESOME!

if anyone says that regime will work they are not even close to being intelligent

:laugh: Oh, you are awesome dude... I love having you on this forum. I wish I never put you on ignore... to think how many gut busting laughs I missed... :laugh:

Ok, I'm taking you off ignore... I don't want to miss any more of these gems... lol

You rule dude! :agree:

 

[bubka]

I know, thanks,

we know you like to have that ridiculous regime for the attention it gets, and my comment really only contribute to it

how do bees make pollen again?

 

[Guest]

I know, thanks,

we know you like to have that ridiculous regime for the attention it gets, and my comment really only contribute to it

how do bees make pollen again?

The same way your sperm is stored... in very tiny balls.

 

[noomi]

Well guys, I've been sticking to my regime daily. I can confidently say that I feel a whole lot better, and I can see pretty big improvement on my face and skin. I have faith

Now as for bubka, I have taken your posts into consideration. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure your regime works fine for you and many others, but I'm not ready to start taking pills and rubbing rogaine in my hair just yet. If after 2 months of seeing no hair improvement I will try propecia.

 

[Guest]

Well guys, I've been sticking to my regime daily. I can confidently say that I feel a whole lot better, and I can see pretty big improvement on my face and skin. I have faith

Now as for bubka, I have taken your posts into consideration. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure your regime works fine for you and many others, but I'm not ready to start taking pills and rubbing rogaine in my hair just yet. If after 2 months of seeing no hair improvement I will try propecia.

What is your regimen?