Merck's Baldness Drug Linked to Sex Concerns After Use?

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Merck & Co. (MRK) (MRK)’s baldness drug Propecia and enlarged prostate therapy Proscar will carry labels linking them to sexual dysfunction after the treatments are no longer used, U.S. regulators said.

Propecia’s packaging will include warnings about libido, orgasm and ejaculation disorders that occur after patients stop using the medicines, the Food and Drug Administration said yesterday in a statement. Proscar’s similar warning is limited to decreased libido, and both drugs will include on their labels reports of infertility and poor semen quality that normalized when people stopped using the drugs, the agency said.

“Despite the fact that clear causal links between finasteride (Propecia and Proscar) and sexual adverse events have not been established, the cases suggest a broader range of adverse effects than previously reported in patients taking these drugs,â€￾ the FDA said in its statement.

Pamela Eisele, a spokeswoman for Merck, didn’t respond to telephone calls and an e-mail seeking comment on the label revision.

The FDA reviewed 421 reports of sexual dysfunction from 1998 to 2011 related to Propecia. Of these, 59 cases reported the condition lasted longer than three months after drug discontinuation. The agency reviewed 131 cases of erectile dysfunction and 68 cases of decreased libido with Proscar from 1992 to 2010

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... -after-use
 

Rawtashk

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There's a "dealing with side effects" part of the forum. Please post in the appropriate section.

Also 421 cases in 11 years means about 40 cases a year. I would wager that millions of men are on Propecia, so those stats shouldn't concern anyone.
 
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It fits a bit in both sections I guess. If a moderator feels that it should be under the other section please move this topic :)

I guess the number of people that have had real troubles is quite low. I am currently only on minoxidil (already 10months), but am not experiencing any positive growth.... Looking at all possibilities. The side-effects are currently still keeping me off propecia.

Luckily there seems to be a lot of positive news about curing baldness (replicel and perhaps even more important that researchers have discovered an abnormal amount of a protein called Prostaglandin D with us baldies)
 

Rawtashk

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Most anti-balding treatments work by sustaining what hair you currently have. It's 100x easier to MAINTAIN your hair than it is to REGROW it.

Take it from me, and countless other people on this forum who have been on finasteride for 3+ years...side effects are blown out of proportion by the people who have them. The people with sides are the ones that complain the loudest (which is to be expected). It took me 3 years to make a post about my success story....but you can bet your sweet *** that I would have been posting the first time I got a side effect from finasteride!!!


My story
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65594
 

Wuffer

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Here is the official FDA discussion about these changes:

http://www.fda.gov/Drugs/DrugSafety/Inf ... 299754.htm


It’s unfortunate that the FDA was not able to discern any type of causal relationship. As a finasteride user, I want to be aware of the risk. This report gives some indication of what risk is involved based solely on case reports, but I was hoping they could dig a bit deeper and find out more. They are still stating that based on current research, a causal relationship cannot be established.

I’m actually surprised there weren’t that many case reports existing. For the last 13 years Propecia has been on the market, only 421 case reports of persistent symptoms were submitted to the FDA. Additionally, in only 59 of these cases did the symptoms persist longer than 3 months. My issue is that I can guarantee if you look at a random sample of a million people in the general population, you will find at least 59 with sexual problems.

What’s even more interesting is that Proscar, a drug that has been available twice as long as Propecia, and prescribed to (IIRC) 3 times as many men, has less than a third as many case reports. This doesn’t make sense. Either persistent symptoms only affect younger, healthier men (which is unlikely) or something is missing here

For the most part, I agree with the FDA’s decision to make these label changes. Since the FDA tends to err on the side of caution, it’s a good thing that these warnings are being added to the label. Enough case reports exist to warrant an official warning on the PPI. However, I notice that the FDA doesn’t exactly dig too deep to find reasoning behind perceived incidence rates of side effects. For example, the prostate cancer warning was added even though data clearly indicates finasteride quite significantly reduces the overall risk of prostate cancer. Since there was a very slight increase in certain types of cancer in certain situations, they decided to release an all-encompassing warning for 5ARI’s. If anything, this shows us that the FDA is quite on the ball, and warning the public about risks (no matter how small) is the top priority. But I digress…

As Rawtashk mentioned, this finally gives us some indication of the incidence rate of persistent symptoms. I have seen a few numbers thrown around, but I recall seeing that approximately 5 million men have been prescribed Propecia worldwide since it was released. I would say 2 million in North America. If we are generous with the FDA case reports (because obviously not every man with these symptoms come forward) we are still looking at an extremely small incidence rate. If we even go to say there are 2000 cases to match members of propeciahelp, we are still looking at a risk of 0.1%, or 1 in 1000. This is a tangible risk, but still unlikely. And even with these numbers, the case reports indicate that over 80% of the time, persistent symptoms resolve after 3 months.

Lastly, the FDA stated: “FDA believes that finasteride remains a safe and effective drug for its approved indications.†I don’t think any of this is cause for concern. Many people have indicated that this FDA review would result in finasteride being withdrawn from the market, but I’m actually even more confident in the safety of the drug after reading this.
 

Cassin

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Wuffer said:
What’s even more interesting is that Proscar, a drug that has been available twice as long as Propecia, and prescribed to (IIRC) 3 times as many men, has less than a third as many case reports. This doesn’t make sense. Either persistent symptoms only affect younger, healthier men (which is unlikely) or something is missing here
.

The Placebo Effect: How It Works
This thought experiment demonstrates how the placebo effect works.
Published on January 10, 2012 by Faith Brynie, Ph.D. in Brain Sense
Let's do a thought experiment. Round up three hundred harried commuters with headaches—not hard to do on the New York subway any workday rush hour. Of course, they are shouting and whining strident protests, which only worsen their headaches, which is precisely what you want. You reassure them that you'll get their names listed on the society pages of the New York Times in recognition of their public service (you can't afford to pay them), and that settles them down long enough for you to herd them into three soundproof rooms, one hundred headaches per room.


Now the fun begins. You do nothing with the first one hundred. They get to glare at one another Big-Apple-style and ruminate on their throbbing temples. You make an eloquent speech to the second group, informing them that they are the lucky recipients of a newly developed and powerful painkilling miracle drug. (It's actually aspirin with codeine, a proven pain reliever.) Then you leave them, too, alone with each other and their pain, contemplating their lawsuits against you. You make the same speech to the third one hundred, but you are lying to them. They think you are giving them a pain-relieving drug. In truth, they get a sugar pill.


After a half hour, you ask your three hundred captives to report on their headaches. In the "do nothing" group, twenty say their headaches are gone. Eighty are still suffering. In the second group, ninety report the complete disappearance of pain; that drug is certainly a miracle potion, the people say, and they wonder where they can purchase it. In the third group, the ones you deceived, forty-five still have headaches, but fifty-five do not. That pill did the trick, they say, happily reboarding the subway pain-free. Your experiment was a success and you are off the hook, unless one of your subjects is a liability lawyer.


But forget the legal ramifications for now. Look at what the experiment revealed. A sugar pill has no physiological action that will cure a headache, but thirty-five of your headache-free subjects in the third group provide evidence to the contrary. (Why thirty-five and not fifty-five? Because the results from the "do nothing" group show headache pain will cease in 20 percent of your subjects after one-half hour regardless.) Thus, for 35 percent of the subjects in our thought experiment, the sugar pill was just as much a miracle drug as the painkiller the members of the "real drug" group received. This "cure" in the absence of any truly therapeutic agent is the placebo effect, and it's more than a curiosity. It's a direct result of brain action. But how?


Before we answer that question, we need to define precisely what the placebo effect is. It is not spontaneous remission. That's what the twenty people in the first group (and presumably twenty more in each of the other two groups as well) experienced. Some of us, no matter what the disease, get better for unknown reasons. The disease process simply reverses itself without any intervention. Whether remission is mere chance or the result of some self-healing process remains anybody's guess.


Neither is the placebo effect deception or self-delusion. The people whose headaches disappear after ingestion of the sugar pill are not lying, cheating, simple-minded, or insane. Their pain disappears--and not because they consciously wish it to. In study after study, where both subjects and experimenters are "blind" to the experimental conditions—that is, no one, including the researchers, knows who is getting the placebo—measurable, clinically replicable improvements in disease conditions occur in a sizeable fraction of all cases.


Furthermore, the placebo effect is no small or insignificant statistical aberration. Estimates of the placebo cure rate range from a low of 15 percent to a high of 72 percent. The longer the period of treatment and the larger the number of physician visits, the greater the placebo effect.


Finally, the placebo effect is not restricted to subjective self-reports of pain, mood, or attitude. Physical changes are real. For example, studies on asthma patients show less constriction of the bronchial tubes in patients for whom a placebo drug works.


The placebo effect is not deception, fluke, experimenter bias, or statistical anomaly. It is, instead, a product of expectation. The human brain anticipates outcomes, and anticipation produces those outcomes. The placebo effect is self-fulfilling prophecy, and it follows the patterns you'd predict if the brain were, indeed, producing its own desired outcomes. Researchers have found, for example:
• Placebos follow the same dose-response curve as real medicines. Two pills give more relief than one, and a larger capsule is better than a smaller one.
• Placebo injections do more than placebo pills.
• Substances that actually treat one condition but are used as a placebo for another have a greater placebo effect that sugar pills.
• The greater the pain, the greater the placebo effect. It's as if the more relief we desire, the more we attain.
• You don't have to be sick for a placebo to work. Placebo stimulants, placebo tranquilizers, even placebo alcohol produce predictable effects in healthy subjects.


As in all brain actions, the placebo effect is the product of chemical changes. Numerous studies have supported the conclusion that endorphins in the brain produce the placebo effect. In patients with chronic pain, for example, placebo responders were found to have higher concentrations of endorphins in their spinal fluid than placebo nonresponders.


At one time, researchers viewed the placebo effect as an impediment--a statistical annoyance that got in the way of objectively evaluating the efficacy of potentially legitimate therapies. That view has changed. The placebo effect is today seen as an important part of the healing process. It's been studied as a treatment for Parkinson's disease, depression, chronic pain, and more. For large numbers of patients—the placebo responders—belief in the therapy will create or enhance its effectiveness.


In some respects, the placebo effect offers the best of all possible alternatives: therapeutic effects without the risk of negative side effects. That's why dozens of brain researchers are working to sort through the complexity of the numerous brain regions and neurotransmitters that produce placebo results. Theirs is no easy task. The placebo effect is not a single phenomenon, but the result of the complex interplay of anatomical, biochemical, and psychological factors. The same can be said for all our perceptions, I suspect. We see, hear, taste, touch, and smell pretty much what we expect to.

For More Information:

Excerpted from Chapter 4, "Pain and the Placebo Effect," Brain Sense.
 

Rawtashk

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Want to read more about placebo effects/hysterical contagion? Interesting/funny article
http://www.cracked.com/article_19238_5- ... anics.html

Excerpt:
In 2009, a strange smell began wafting through a Fort Worth call center that someone quickly recognized as a poisonous carbon monoxide leak. Soon, people started dropping like flies from chest pains, headaches, dizziness and breathing difficulties. The building was evacuated, and at the end of the day, 34 people were hospitalized and another 110 treated at the scene.
The only problem was there was no gas leak to be found, and there were no abnormal traces of carbon monoxide in the air. Also, carbon monoxide is odorless.
Eventually, someone worked out that the strange odor that people were complaining about was ... perfume.
Someone had applied their Chanel No. 5 a little generously that morning, and the resulting Fort Worth perfume panic claimed over a hundred victims.
 

ex propecia user

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Well what a surprise, more evidence of finasteride causing long term damage even from the Big pharma stooge that is the FDA and yet still the same faces defend the drug like someone was trying to screw their momma.

Thanks for letting me know that the ramapant muscle wastage, testicular shrinkage, total loss of libido and permanent erectile dysfunction I am now suffering as a young man is a placebo effect and not anything to do with taking and then stopping propecia.

And why should this be moved to the 'dealing with side effects' forum? Might potential users not want to be made aware of the potential DANGERS of this drug? No, let's shove it away down the bottom of the page where we can label it as cranks' stuff!

Expecting balanced coverage about finasteride side effects on here is like expecting neutral political coverage on Fox News - too many of the same faces clearly have a vested interest in defending it.
 

Rawtashk

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Did anyone say that you had the placebo effect? No. We are saying that the placebo effect is 100% real. There are also real cases where people get side effects. However, you are in the large majority, and I don't think it's fair that you get to scare away 1000 people just to save that 1 person who might get side effects.
 

Wuffer

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Am I the only one noticing there are a lot of new users registering that have a strong anti-propecia viewpoint? It's funny, I am often accused of being a Merck shill or stooge, but it's obvious that many people against finasteride are creating multiple accounts. A few months ago, one user created I think a total of 6 accounts (that I know of) on gourmetstylewellness.com and HLH spamming the boards with the exact same studies and almost identical posts.

Now i'm seeing a lot of newly registered users that only post a few times, then we never hear from them again. With free IP spoofing services widely available, and even users with dynamic IP addresses, it's quite easy to create multiple accounts in an effort to make this problem appear more widespread than it actually is.

I think what it comes down to for a lot of guys is as long as the cause is for the greater good, then it's justifiable to create multiple accounts. But of course, everybody who doesn't share your exact same extreme viewpoint must be a shill, right?
 

ex propecia user

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Am I the only one noticing how certain users (Wuffer, Ratawshk) spam every anti=propecia thread or get them moved to this section?

It's always the same dicks defending this drug which is ruining the lives of so many men for what? It's not even a health condition. Wuffer both here and on HLH, the same three guys on HLH who pop up only to defend propecia like someone was saying they had a small useless dick (which maybe they do from finasteride).

Keep polluting this site with your endless finasteride promotion, I saw that ridiculous thread were you said both Clooney and Brad Pitt were 'probably' taking finasteride. Yeah, just like I'm 'probably' screwing Katy Perry. I'm sure some sad sap will get taken in eventually.
 

Wuffer

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Am I the only one noticing how certain users (Wuffer, Ratawshk) spam every anti=propecia thread or get them moved to this section?

It's always the same dicks defending this drug which is ruining the lives of so many men for what? It's not even a health condition. Wuffer both here and on HLH, the same three guys on HLH who pop up only to defend propecia like someone was saying they had a small useless dick (which maybe they do from finasteride).

What are you talking about? What's not even a health condition? Who said they have a small and useless dick? You are making absolutely no sense; if you are going to try to accuse me of any wrong-doing, at least use some specific examples. Also, how exactly are any of my posts considered spamming? The only examples I see regularly of spamming are people who post pages of studies copy+pasted from propeciahelp.

Also, how am I getting these threads moved to this section? I can't speak for Rawtashk, but I am not a moderator and not in any way involved in the decision making process that gets threads moved to another section on this board. This section has to do with side effects, so it makes sense that topics focused on side effects belong here.

Keep polluting this site with your endless finasteride promotion, I saw that ridiculous thread were you said both Clooney and Brad Pitt were 'probably' taking finasteride. Yeah, just like I'm 'probably' screwing Katy Perry. I'm sure some sad sap will get taken in eventually.

I never said "probably" like you blatantly misquote me saying. My exact wording was: "I Wouldn't be surprised if even Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise are taking the stuff.." That doesn't mean I they are "probably" taking it, it means if word came out that they were taking it, I wouldn't be surprised. Go, take a look at the thread. I haven’t edited that post or anything! Thanks for trying though.
 

Rawtashk

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I'm sorry that it didn't work for you. I really and truly am. Balding sucks, and I can't even begin to imagine how much more it would suck if you add all your side effects to the mix. Please understand that I am not discrediting you or your side effects at all.

Personally, I stand to gain absolutely nothing at all from people taking finasteride. The reason that I try to encourage people is because I know how much of a life changer it's been for me. I'm the only one in my extended family that's had a decent amount of hair at age 28, and it's kept a lot of doors open for me in the entertainment industry.

There is a risk/reward factor in EVERYTHING you do in life. You risk getting hit by a car every time you walk across the street. I live in Kansas, which means I risk having a tornado come ripping through my house. Etc etc.

Everyone's risk/reward factor is different. For me, it was worth the risk to have my hair, and the fact that the risk was small (by all accredited medical studies) made it an easier choice. My only regret now is that I didn't start on finasteride sooner. I ran across the propeciahelp forums when I first started researching my hairloss. They scared the sh*t out of me, and put me off propecia for 2 years. I finally got on finasteride after about 2 years. Of my current hairloss, about 80% of it came in those 2 years, and the last 20% (or less) was in the last 4.

Everyone in a 1st world country has a 1-in-77 chance of dying in an automobile accident. That's better odds that you'll get long-lasting finasteride sides. Yet, you and me and everyone here is still going to drive their cars anytime they need to go somewhere.

Like I said, it's a risk/reward thing. No one's forcing anyone to take it, but neither should people preach the evils of finasteride and tell you that no one should be on it. Myself and countless others have been on finasteride for years with no (or minimal) problems. There are many guys that have gotten side effects, stopped finasteride, and been fine within a matter of weeks. The long-lasting sides are the extremely rare cases, and I really am sorry that you're in that group :(
 

ex propecia user

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Rawtashk, while I appreciate your sympathy I have to disagree completely. If you ask probably 95% of the population if they think a drug should be licensed for hairloss which can cause permanent impotence, infertility, total libido loss and a laundry list of other physical and mental sides among a subset of young men, no matter if it's one in a hundred, then they would be against it. No matter how good it is at stopping hairloss for others.

The FDA is supposed to safeguard against such an occurrance, unfortunateley the FDA is riddled with the influence of the pharamaceutical companies it is supposed to be keeping tabs on. It failed with Merck before with Vioxx which KILLED fifty thousand users, so Propecia is a walk in the park in comparison. The drug makes Merck $400 million per year clear profit and that is the bottom line.
 

Wuffer

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so ex propecia user, are you going to clarify any of the statements you made about me earlier or are we just going to leave it as lying in an attempt to make me look bad?

The FDA never once used the word “permanent†in their announcement. In the cases they studied, 80% of the users saw resolution of their symptoms after 3 months. They never mentioned a laundry list of mental or physical side effects, and based on their data, it’s not exactly 1 in 100. For the men that experienced side effects for more than 3 months I pegged it at more like 1 in 30,000. If you give the public the correct information, I think their opinion might be a bit different than you think.

Your second argument makes no sense. So let me get this straight: the FDA has come out with an official warning that finasteride can cause persistent sexual side effects in extremely rare cases, but everybody should probably ignore that because the FDA is clearly completely corrupt?

I’m pretty sure that if the FDA decided to issue a warning that suited your viewpoint, you would change your tune pretty quickly and think the FDA was the greatest thing ever. Unless everyone sees this issue exactly like you do, every person is a shill and every corporation is corrupt? That’s a very convenient stance I might say.

Just to state this officially, I am also extremely sympathetic to individuals who have persistent side effects. I personally believe they do occur, even though the data supporting it isn’t quite there yet. I am less inclined to be sympathetic towards you because you are the one that came out on the offensive, spouting lies to try to make me look bad. Like almost every other person who has experienced persistent effects, you came out on the offence, insulting, lying and basically calling everyone idiots. People don’t like that, and it’s hard to get behind a group of people who try to make their case based on this type of attitude.
 
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I am just sharing the news.... If you can't share the news what big players such as bloomberg/businessweek are publishing it is a wrong world isn't it. I'm a new user indeed, I decided to register myself after seeing this news and no post about it on this forum.

But I am not sure what my position is ... pro or against. The chance that you will have a side effect of Propecia is very little...... on the other hand isn't it a big step to choose and take a medicine such as propecia/finasteride while being mid-20 and being very healthy on the other hand. There are also a lot of developments which may point out that there is an alternative soon. So interesting to read and see all the discussions.

I don't like the side effect which some experience such as pain in the balls (which I also read in the succes stories)... is that a strange thing? It's hair loss not a decease.... but on the other hand reading about it is something else than trying it so I won't say I am not going to try and use it to experience myself. Maybe I won't experience such things.
 

LawOfThelema

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What are you talking about? What's not even a health condition? Who said they have a small and useless dick? You are making absolutely no sense; if you are going to try to accuse me of any wrong-doing, at least use some specific examples. Also, how exactly are any of my posts considered spamming? The only examples I see regularly of spamming are people who post pages of studies copy+pasted from propeciahelp.

Also, how am I getting these threads moved to this section? I can't speak for Rawtashk, but I am not a moderator and not in any way involved in the decision making process that gets threads moved to another section on this board. This section has to do with side effects, so it makes sense that topics focused on side effects belong here.



I never said "probably" like you blatantly misquote me saying. My exact wording was: "I Wouldn't be surprised if even Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise are taking the stuff.." That doesn't mean I they are "probably" taking it, it means if word came out that they were taking it, I wouldn't be surprised. Go, take a look at the thread. I haven’t edited that post or anything! Thanks for trying though.

Not sure about Pitt and Clonney but you can be certain Matthew McConnely is taking it to maintain his hair transplant. lol
 

Wuffer

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What kind of braindead dip**** are you? The finasteride is definitely messing with your brain. The FDA never said anything about "80% of the users saw resolution of their symptoms after 3 months." Are you really that ****ing stupid? That's how you understood it? Wow. In the cases they studied, NONE of the users saw resolution in their symptoms after 3 months. What the FDA means is that the users had not been off the drug for at least three months. Meaning, someone has a hard crash coming off finasteride. He reports his horrific post-drug reaction to the FDA 6 weeks later. This doesn't mean "the user saw resolution of his symptoms after 3 months." It means, he's been off for less than three months, had a horrific crash, and likely won't get back to normal. Some persistent men kept reporting their symptoms several months later so the idiots like you couldn't pull the whole "give it some time" card.

I don't wish PFS on anyone. But if someone deserves it, it's definitely you.

Hey there, welcome to the forum! I'm flattered you directed your very first post at me, and I thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

To be perfectly honest, after I read "What kind of braindead dip**** are you?" I didn't waste any more energy reading further. If you would be as kind as to rephrase your post slightly, I would be more than happy to offer a response.

Again, thank you for posting and have a pleasant day!
 

Wuffer

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I didn't even ask you to be polite. I hope it's just the fact that you aren't old enough to realize this, but there are much more effective ways of getting your point across than swearing and insulting people.

Maybe you don't realize, but people actually work to try to legitimize this condition and I strongly support these (few) individuals that aren't looking for this media storm or revenge or money from lawsuits, but are only looking to resolve their symptoms. When apes like you make ridiculous posts like these, you take the whole cause down a few notches, and anybody reading what you wrote will be even less inclined to support it.


Let me quickly belt out some responses to your post:

- My doctor and the FDA tells me this drug is not dangerous. I am much more inclined to trust them over what people I have never met are telling me over the internet.

- I have not seen a single study that indicates DHT is of any significant importance to maintaining sexual or mental health. You should read up on propeciahelp, because the consensus is that DHT inhibition alone is not the cause of persistent effects, but it is more likely a result of neurosteroid inhibition. Merck is right; after puberty, DHT doesn't do much else other than make you go bald and inflate your prostate.

- So numbers are meaningless now? I should just go based on the fact that Propecia is extremely dangerous for everybody who takes it?

- If I can't trust the FDA with my health, who should I trust? You? The internet?



Actually, I had people screaming at me to get off when I first started, and that was the direct cause of a lot of anxiety and associated symptoms. After I stopped listening to these people, I realized the anxiety went away and I have tolerated the drug perfectly fine for almost 2 years now. That's just me though.
 

Wuffer

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Say, you are just awesome! Please don't stop posting, because I am thoroughly enjoying our conversation here!

Your doctor and the FDA are getting their "information" from Merck. Both your doctor and the FDA have good relationship with Merck. Your doctor and Merck have a very good relationship. Merck draws patients to your doctor's practice by DTC advertising. Your doctor writes prescriptions for Merck drugs. They both profit from each other, using idiots like you as bait.

I was going to whip up a counter argument, but this sentence serves its purpose such as it is...


Many doctors (and now the FDA) tell you this drug is dangerous. Many doctors say this drug an inflict a uniquely cruel form of torture by inducing sexual anhedonia, genital numbness, impotence. Many doctor say they've seen patients kill themselves because of this drug.

In your previous statement you claimed the FDA gets their information from Merck and that's why they can't be trusted. And now you say the FDA is telling me it's dangerous so I should trust them again? You should maybe try to posture yourself better if you want to have any shot at not looking like a complete idiot.

FYI, the statement the FDA released after their recent investigation into the drug contained the following:

...clear causal links between finasteride (Propecia and Proscar) and sexual adverse events have NOT been established...

...FDA believes that finasteride remains a safe and effective drug for its approved indications...

I don't personally translate that to the FDA saying "this drug is dangerous", but I guess it is up to interpretation?

You present some really good evidence. "many doctors say". That's a really solid argument there.


I am now convinced the finasteride is making you braindead because no one can be born this stupid.

It's been known since at latest the 1960's the DHT is the most powerful androgen in the male body, with three to thirty times the affinity for the Androgen Recptor compared to Testosterone. Two second search and I found an article demonstrating its role in sexual function: http://endo.endojournals.org/content/136/4/1495.short
Wrong dip****. The hypothesis being tested is a downregulated Androgen Receptor due to DHT inhibition. Downregulated neurosteroid receptors is just another part of PFS.
-If there is one person outside of Merck who deserves PFS, it's you. Only an idiot would not only believe but parrot such stupid lies.

Them’s some big words you learned there! If rat studies are all you have to show me, then I don't think you will make a lot of progress here.

I have been on the drug for almost 2 years, and my body has been sitting at roughly 35% DHT the whole time. Explain to me how I was not only able to attain a full erection, but maintain it for 2 hours while having sex with my girlfriend last night? Not just last night, but daily (on average) for the last 2 years as well? It seems like an impossible feat if DHT is so necessary for erections like you are claiming.

Hey, why you gotta be so mean and hurt my feelings saying mean stuff? Calling me a parrot now that's really low, man.

I could say plenty of mean things to you too, but I’m not twelve.


Dr. Irwin Goldstein says,
"because sex steroid hormones are critical for genital organ structure and function, depriving young men of a critical sex steroid — dihydrotestosterone — affects sexual function."

Hey, you pulled that right from PH didn't you! You even included the scary red text and bolded formatting and everything! Good for you!

Yawn... I found Dr. Irwin Goldstein's website and what a surprise. This doctor treats patients with hormone replacement therapy! Hmm, I wonder if convincing patients that their treatments work would be in their best interest or not?

And yet again you contradict yourself in the exact same post! Don't trust doctors because they get their information from Merck! Except for this doctor of course, who clearly has absolutely no financial motivation and has the patient's best interest at heart, right?


But go ahead, believe Merck. They've never lied before, have no reason to. And that VIOXX thing, just a misunderstanding.

Actually, the majority of the studies that demonstrate the drug's safety were done independently of Merck. You are the one that keeps bringing them up, I couldn't give a rat’s *** about them.


Your numberes are meaningless. Propecia is potentially dangerous. More than enough to stay away. But, to each his own.

I won't sit here and let you badmouth my "numberes"! Anything is potentially dangerous. Are you just realizing this now? A fluffy kitten has the potential to mess you up pretty bad, but the risk is extremely small. Same goes for finasteride. Low risk and involves just as much hair as said kitten!


-- Obviously not yourself because you're too dumb. Merck and the FDA has their own best interests in mind, not your health. So, people on the Internet is you best bet.

"Obviously not yourself because you're too dumb." Wow, maybe I really am dumb because I couldn't make any sense of that whatsoever.

Hey, can you even see the sky anymore? That hole you're digging yourself into must be getting REALLY deep by now. Oh hell yeah, you can trust anybody on the internet! Nobody ever tries to screw people over in internet land!

*EDIT* I just had to come back and touch on that paragraph again. You call me dumb, then immediately after you say that the internet is the best place to get medical advice. Man, that's an instant classic... I love it! *EDIT*

Next time you have a medical emergency (such as an inflamed appendix and sepsis for example), make sure you remember what you said today and go STRAIGHT to the internet for treatment. Ignore the excruciating pain and loss of vision, your trusty friends on the internet will fix you right up! And for the love of god, make sure you don't go to the hospital and get treated with hundreds of FDA approved medical devices, because THEY WILL F*CKING KILL YOU! While you're at it, go through your entire home and throw out anything that has been FDA approved, because it’s all deadly as well. You might find you are left with very little, but I am sure you will find a way to get by.


Duh, which seperates you from the poor saps at PH, who've been impotent for almost a decade because no one was there to warn them. They wish they had been adequately warned. Don't ever say you weren't.

I like what you did there, trying to freak me out a little? No, I’m fairly certain I will be just fine.




Now that we got that out of the way, I will be dead serious for you. I don't know who the hell you are, but you seem to just be arguing for the sake of arguing. You are making yourself look like a complete idiot and sending your cause back a notch every time you post, so do yourself and everyone at PH a favor and give it up. Like I have already said, I believe PFS exists as a condition and support EVERYONE suffering from symptoms.

I do NOT agree with the way PH is run, but they are free to do as they wish and I am free to think as I wish. I also think scare mongering is complete BS, which is exactly what you are trying to do. People deserve to learn the facts about finasteride so that they can make an educated decision on whether or not to treat their hair loss. The 'truth' as you see it is not helpful.

If I am going to get anything through your thick skull, I hope it is this. You don’t further a cause by passing weak-*** studies off as solid evidence, perpetuating scare mongering, refusing to consider alternatives, and attacking anybody who is critical of the details; especially the latter, which is exactly what you are doing. You do it by acknowledging weaknesses, considering all possibilities and striving to make progress. Most importantly of all, instead of shoving crap down peoples throats and calling it caviar while attacking all who disagree, you try to work with them and gain their support. This whole cause could have made so much progress with the community's support if it wasn't for people like you who worked so diligently to turn people against it.

You have the right to disagree with me all you want, but do yourself and everyone at PH a favor and grow the f*ck up before you decide to post again. If you can’t control your anger issues, go see a therapist. I really think you are in need of one.
 
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