Minoxidil first, then spironolactone

[techprof]

Bryan. Dr. Lee told me that spironolactone is very effective, and so is xandrox. Is he just saying that because he sells the stuff?

Yes, I believe that's why he said that: he's selling the stuff. I think that's especially true of Xandrox! There is no scientific proof at all that azelaic acid works as a topical 5a-reductase inhibitor.

[quote="He-Bat":1s0e1d8d]The xandrox reviews I've read are pretty impressive though.

Xandrox also contains minoxidil, of course, so I think it works only to the extent that any topical minoxidil product works.

But spironolactone and xandrox are expensive and time consuming so I don't want to waste time and money on something that doesn't even work. I did try revivogen for a year and that was totally useless. I am having a hair transplant next year, I am a nw3 and NOT taking finasteride, but I need to slow down my hairloss though, not expecting major regrowth, or any. What's your advice?

I certainly wouldn't waste money on Xandrox, which is basically just expensive Rogaine. I like Dr. Proctor's products, but they're expensive, too, especially the prescription Proxiphen. You might consider using the cheaper and OTC version of Proxiphen called "Prox-N", which maintained my own hair for the two full years that I used it exclusively.[/quote:1s0e1d8d]


Bryan,
I respect your opinion on azelaic acid. IMO, Dr. Lee adds it mainly for making minoxidil soluble at high concentration.

I agree with the lack of scientific proof for azelaic acid. While we are it, other than Dr. Proctor's words do we have any scientific studies for his products (other than minoxidil, retinA or spironolactone in his products)?

I understand the peptide related studies for specific peptides in tricomin, but I don't recall any studies for proctor's specific sods, tempol/pbn/nano.

thanks
PS, I do believe in his products, but there is no scientific proof for if or how much it works. It is a shame.

 

[Fundi]

Dr Lee told me to add spironolactone 10 minutes or so after the minoxidil dried is fine.

He even said it helps in some way to apply spironolactone after minoxidil(Can't remember, helping the minoxidil absorb??)

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,
I respect your opinion on azelaic acid. IMO, Dr. Lee adds it mainly for making minoxidil soluble at high concentration.

I doubt that it has anything to do with increasing the solubility of minoxidil.

I agree with the lack of scientific proof for azelaic acid. While we are it, other than Dr. Proctor's words do we have any scientific studies for his products (other than minoxidil, retinA or spironolactone in his products)?

Hey, don't forget those published studies I've cited for the copper-peptides. Proxiphen and Prox-N have some of those, too!

I understand the peptide related studies for specific peptides in tricomin, but I don't recall any studies for proctor's specific sods, tempol/pbn/nano.

I've never heard of any studies for them, either; however, he apparently considers them to be the most effective of all his ingredients, and I think that means a lot.

PS, I do believe in his products, but there is no scientific proof for if or how much it works. It is a shame.

True, but I put more value in Dr. Proctor's opinion than I do Dr. Lee's.

 

[skallagrimur]

True, but I put more value in Dr. Proctor's opinion than I do Dr. Lee's.

Why is that?

 

[Bryan]

True, but I put more value in Dr. Proctor's opinion than I do Dr. Lee's.

Why is that?

I believe Dr. Proctor has been at this longer than Dr. Lee, not to mention the fact that he has _far_ more innovative treatments than Dr. Lee. I think Dr. Lee's main claim to fame is simply finding a user-friendly version of topical minoxidil which people like to use!

 

[techprof]

True, but I put more value in Dr. Proctor's opinion than I do Dr. Lee's.

Why is that?

I believe Dr. Proctor has been at this longer than Dr. Lee, not to mention the fact that he has _far_ more innovative treatments than Dr. Lee. I think Dr. Lee's main claim to fame is simply finding a user-friendly version of topical minoxidil which people like to use!

Bryan,
I am with you on that. I believe and respect Dr. Proctor more than Dr. Lee. But, some of Dr. Proctor's claims have made me suspect his credentials (Even you have agreed/will agree with me on the following).

Dr. Proctor keeps saying that PPG was the reason for 50% of the results with rogaine, but there are studies that prove otherwise (stating ppg doesn't grow hairs).

Dr. Proctor claims finasteride is unexpectedly as good as topical spironolactone for its ability to halt hair loss, I find this extremely hard to believe and only a sales pitch for the spironolactone in his prescription proxiphen. You will agree with me that topical spironolactone is not nearly as effective as finasteride and not even worth comparing.

Dr. Proctor provides different products, but considering these two claims from him, I don't believe that his prescription proxiphen can be better than a combo of minoxidil and finasteride. That is my opinion, but I would hate to be proved wrong.

Please note that I am not claiming his products don't work, they certainly do. However I do believe that, he is overdoing the sods and inflammation angle, and his products cannot compete with finasteride or dutasteride in the long run, but perhaps a better option than minoxidil only regimen because they address the balding process.

However, if were to choose one product after finasteride or dutasteride, that would be sods and his products, not before.

PS., in one of the posts Dr. Pickart made in his forums, he made the claim that he met Dr. Proctor long time back in a dermatology conference, and had discussed with him the sod activities of the peptides in procyte's products. Apparently few weeks after that, Dr. Proctor went on to submit patents on sods for hair loss. I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it is in Dr. Pickart's forums.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,
I am with you on that. I believe and respect Dr. Proctor more than Dr. Lee. But, some of Dr. Proctor's claims have made me suspect his credentials (Even you have agreed/will agree with me on the following).

Dr. Proctor keeps saying that PPG was the reason for 50% of the results with rogaine, but there are studies that prove otherwise (stating ppg doesn't grow hairs).

I'm considerably more cautious about condemning his claim about propylene glycol. The only evidence I know for it (one way or the other) would be that 1999 study by Vera Price, which found no difference in hairweights or haircounts between the groups that got the placebo solution (which included propylene glycol) and the group which got no treatment of any kind, not even a placebo solution.

But Dr. Proctor was making that claim for PG prior to Dr. Price's 1999 study, making me think that he knew about some previous evidence from topical minoxidil studies that I haven't run across. Until I hear directly from him what his specific reasons are for believing that claim about PG, I think we should cut him a little slack.

Dr. Proctor claims finasteride is unexpectedly as good as topical spironolactone for its ability to halt hair loss, I find this extremely hard to believe and only a sales pitch for the spironolactone in his prescription proxiphen.

I tend to agree with you on that one. I think he talks it up mainly because it's just about the ONLY safe and inexpensive antiandrogen he can include in Proxiphen, even if animal experiments show that it's not as effective as (say) RU58841.

You will agree with me that topical spironolactone is not nearly as effective as finasteride and not even worth comparing.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that I agree with you on that. I simply don't know for sure how topical spironolactone would compare to Propecia.

Dr. Proctor provides different products, but considering these two claims from him, I don't believe that his prescription proxiphen can be better than a combo of minoxidil and finasteride. That is my opinion, but I would hate to be proved wrong.

Please note that I am not claiming his products don't work, they certainly do. However I do believe that, he is overdoing the sods and inflammation angle, and his products cannot compete with finasteride or dutasteride in the long run, but perhaps a better option than minoxidil only regimen because they address the balding process.

However, if were to choose one product after finasteride or dutasteride, that would be sods and his products, not before.

Do you think he was simply lying when he said that Proxiphen is "unquestionably more effective than finasteride alone"?

PS., in one of the posts Dr. Pickart made in his forums, he made the claim that he met Dr. Proctor long time back in a dermatology conference, and had discussed with him the sod activities of the peptides in procyte's products. Apparently few weeks after that, Dr. Proctor went on to submit patents on sods for hair loss. I have no way of knowing if this is true, but it is in Dr. Pickart's forums.

Are you suggesting that Dr. Proctor only learned of the hairgrowth-stimulating properties of SODs through Dr. Pickart?

 

[techprof]

Bryan,
I hope you are not offended someway.

I am pretty sure and convinced that topical spironolactone is not as effective as finasteride. When you read these forums, many unfortunate users of finasteride who had to stop it due to side effects couldn't maintain their hairs with topical spironolactone. Considering the hype about finasteride's side effects, etc, if topical spironolactone is truly as effective as finasteride (considering absence of side effects with topical spironolactone), some one or some big companies would have done fda studies to popularize it. It never happened, and will never happen.

I am still confused why Proctor insists that prescription proxiphen is more effective than finasteride and minoxidil combo in the long run. This could be based on his proposed mechanisms, and the response rate among patients (i.e, more people might respond to prescription proxiphen), but for those who respond to finasteride, I don't believe that proxiphen is more effective.

(i.e, proxiphen might have the capability to hold 50 hairs in 95% of the patients), but finasteride should hold 100 or may be even 200 hairs in the 80% or 70% of the people who respond.

My guess is that this is because of topical application and local effects of proxiphen as opposed to systemic effects with finasteride.

And last, I don't question that Proctor was much ahead of Pickart. Just pointing out what Pickart said in his forum Perhaps, Proctor was not intending to patent his sods and keep his formula a secret (just like how he dissolves spironolactone and minoxidil in his proxiphen). When Pickart realzied that tricomin peptide worked and his peptides had sod activity, Proctor decided to patent sods to protect his interests.

Proctor is not a cheat (he doesn't add products that are proven not to work), but he is not providing proofs, and to a great extent we are trusting his words. Though he is an honest Doctor to a great extent, and at the end of the day he has to survive and live and might exaggerate his products which make sense to me.

We have to agree to disagree on some of his claims.

 

[fdee71]

I have been using Richer and Fuller spironolactone order through my local pharmacy together with Rogaine. I have seen some results and is still observing. I am wondering whether the effect will wear off after a year or so.