my conversation with PhD about tricomin ingredient

[CCS]

Here is my conversation. What do you think i should ask them next? Is GHL the tricomin peptide?


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Do you sell tri-amino GHL-Cu complex?

I'd like to buy it as a powder, and buy about 50 or so grams. If so,
how much would you charge?
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Skin Actives Scientific

We sell the actual copper peptide, the synthetic version of the natural
copper peptide found in human plasma. This peptide is used at very low
concentration, too much of it will promote degradation of collagen. Because
it must be used at low concentration, the best way of formulating it is
using a solution of the peptide, rather than a powder.

The "tri-amino complex" is probably a marketing name for this tri-peptide
(three amino acids joined in peptide bonds). If you tell me where you saw it
I may be able to find out what the other ingredients may be.

Hannah Sivak, PhD

Skin Actives Scientific LLC
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It is the active ingredient of tricomin spray. The FDA phaseII trial
solution that performed best used a 2.5% solution, whereas I think the
1.25% did not do anything. While everyone, including the manufacturer,
says the tricomin on the market is less than 2.5%, the amount is not
advertized, and I heard estimates that range from 0.1% to 2.0%. I'd
like to add some of the powder to my tricomin to bring the
concentration up to 2.5%, so I can know I will get the best results.

At what concentration do the copper peptides start degrading skin more
than building it up?

Thanks

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Skin Actives Scientific

If they changed the sequence of the peptide to GHL, the only reason they
could have is patent issues (I don't think you can patent the sequence of a
natural peptide).

The response curve to the copper peptide would vary with the system. You
can't use the data as a rule, the usefulness is in knowing that it can have
the opposite effect if you go too high.

 

[bubka]

you can patent proteins that are found naturally in living organisms, like green florescent protein in jelly fish...

 

[mvpsoft]

Patents are issued on processes, not on substances. Therefore it the process involved with a natural substance meets patent criteria, a patent can be granted.

 

[Bryan]

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Skin Actives Scientific

If they changed the sequence of the peptide to GHL, the only reason they
could have is patent issues (I don't think you can patent the sequence of a
natural peptide).

???

Who the hell said anything about changing the sequence of the peptide to GHL? Why did she say THAT, out of the clear blue sky??

And why didn't she answer your question about the cost of the stuff?

Bryan

 

[CCS]

I'm sure she wants to know what I want it for so she can guess how much it will be worth to me and decide how much to charge me. I hope she does not assume tricomin is 2%, and charge me 1/4 the cost of tricomin to make the extra 0.5% increase. She will probably go lower than that, but not give me the huge deal I want. I hope that is not what is going on, but when I got nizoral 1% at walmart, it was the pharmacist's first time stocking it, so the first thing she did was ask me how much other places are selling it for, and then she beat their price by 5 cents.

 

[CCS]

AHK is the tricomin peptide. GHK is made in the body. Both have benifits for skin and hair. I think skinactives.com sells GHK. Perhaps GHK is more potent and better at lower concentrations than AHK. I just asked the PhD.

My guess is they can't sell AHK because of the patent and the GHK will be extremely expensive and we won't know what concentration to use.

However, the 99% powder might not be covered by a patent, since I think the patent is for 0.1% to 5% solutions.

 

[CCS]

Hannah Sivak,

The copper peptides I want have lysine at the end. I thought lysine
was abreviated with an L, not a K. Tricomin has AHK, whereas GHK is
the natural copper peptide. Both have therapudic affects, though
possibly at different concentrations.

Do you sell either of these in powder form? What is the price for
several grams? Also, what is the lowest concentration that you know is
harmful? What is the highest known concentration that is generally
considered safe? I reallize the effects of doses in between those are
unknown. I just want ball park figures, and will be conservative. I'm
guessing GHK is better at a lower concentration than AHK.
-----------------

We sell only GHK (not AHK). We sell it as a solution (0.1%) to be used at
1:100 dilution.

We can sell it to you as a powder, if you prefer.

Jonatan will write to you with wholesale pricing. We could prepare for you
AHK, but at a higher price because it would have to be synthesized
especially for you.


Hannah

 

[CCS]

We currently stock GHK that we can sell as a pure powder. Pricing is
$400 per gram, at higher purchases (above 10 grams I can go down to $300
per gram).

Please note we have made a decision to limit pure peptide sales to companies
that have liability insurance. We can not guarantee a safe concentration
above our recommended use.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions. I can send you
a sample of our solution if you are interested in seeing it ready for use.


Jonatan Funtowicz

 

[CCS]

I guess the next step is to look for pubmed studies on this stuff to see the ideal concentration for hair loss. If 0.1% is good, when diluted further like they say, then this may be a cheap addition to a regimen, if we just by the $10 solution. But the peptide is very expensive.

My next point, is if GHK is so expensive, even to the companies that are allowed to buy it, then why would AHK cost less? They she said there is no patent on the GHK. So I wonder how tricomin can use 2% at an affordable price. Lets say the tricomin is $200 per gram. A 2% solution, 200mL, would be 4 grams. That is $800, not even counting the solution or profit or anything. But tricomin is $50. So how do they make it so cheap, or why would skinactives sell it so expensive even at a whole sale rate.

So I ask everyone, are we sure that that the FDA trial had 1.25% and 2.5%?

I want to see a link to the trial in PDF, not someone posting what they say they read somewhere. My guess is it is 0.02%, and someone missread it. I think that is why they put the dye in it, so people feel like they are getting something. That or skinactives or their supplier is making a huge profit on something non-patented, or the price does drop but only in huge quantities. But they said they can special make AHK for me, but already have GHK in stock, so it is not specail made, so that throws out that possibility.

Anyone know the topical concentrations used in pubmed studies? I read an interview with Dr Picart where someone asked him if all CP products have less than 0.1%, and he said yes. I also heard he said that with CP's, less is more. I'm going to cut back on mine to EOD, so that each is every 4th day.

 

[CCS]

this also explains how folligen could have 33x as much CP in it, without being a powdery paste.

 

[CCS]

2mL of 0.1% into 4oz of cream is a 0.0017% cream. Just seems so low.
http://skinactives.com/products/copper_peptide.htm

I don't plan on buying any more copper peptides until Tricomin and these other companies start being more out in the open about this stuff. They expect us to take them on faith that their product works, when it is not FDA tested and they don't have any studies to back it up since we don't even know the concentration. This is suspicious when the active ingredient seems very expensive, at least according to one supplier.

 

[hannah]

Sorry about the misunderstanding

Dear college chemistry student,

I am sorry that I did not answer your question properly but please don't "over think" my answers. When I did not answer your question about $ is because I take care of the scientific side while Jonatan takes care of the $ side of things.

I should know more about patents, as I have 9 applications submitted, but I don't. I am really a basic scientist that only recently started working on applied science.

If you have any questions that I can answer, please let me know. I am very interested in hair loss particularly in menopausal women but also in young men. Jonatan (my son) lost most of his hair before he was 20 and part of my interest in developing a hair serum with KGF was to try and compensate for my own genetic contribution to the hair loss.

Often, skin care companies refer to the concentration of the stock solution in the final product (3 to 5%), rather than the final concentration of the peptide, which is usually in the parts per million. Why so low? Because these peptides are mostly signal peptides that will bind to a receptor and start a cascade of molecular events.