Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WQaw80NyfU
i just finished my first session with the 1.5 roller. my scalp is on fire.
are you guys applying anything immediately after rolling to calm the scalp or should i just leave it hot and inflamed :wub: ?
@Bombarie: Minoxidil will still be helpful, as it resolves fibrotic collagen tissue which is a crucial part in restoring balding (and maybe even bald) areas to prior health. Just make sure that you do not apply any minoxidil within the first 24 to 48 hours after treatment (depending on roller needle size), to make sure that no minoxidil enters your blood stream.
@Chelaxing: I myself am not applying anything right now due to a pertaining lack of a derma roller, but a mild anti inflammatory can be used. Just make sure it's nothing that's known to cause harm to liver or kidneys (some anti inflammatories actually do), as it can enter your blood stream through those tiny wounds.
@everyone: I am pretty sure after having a good look at crossections of scalp skin that there are two pathways of action with dermarolling:
1) everything below 1.5mm will only help delivery of topicals. Those wounds are simply not deep enough. They only go as far as the dermis. And as everybody knows, we have a regular permanent dermis renewal protocol anyway. As the dermis is constantly dying off and renewing anyway, wounds at this level will certainly not lead to regrowth of DP. There is nothing to be gained by increasing cell turnover and tissue regeneration in an area that is constantly renewed anyway.
2) 1.5mm and more: Only when damaging the layer below the dermis regrowth of DP can be triggered at all. This was also demonstrated by one study by Cotsarelis, where they made sure to remove tissue below the dermis as well. It goes in accordance with 1), as dermis and epidermis are renewed all the time anyway. In many places of the male body, dermis and epidermis are even 2mm (3mm on the back and some parts of the chest, and sometimes even 4mm, but only on palms and feet AFAIK), so we would need 1.5mm with high pressure, or bigger needles to hit anything below dermis, if we want to replicate what Cotsarelis did. We need to trigger regrowth in the subcutis to form new DP or to trigger their repair.
Guys, I have just a couple of questions/considerations:
1) in case of deep bloody 1,5 mm microneedling, how long to wait until the next application to allow the complete scalp recovery? I guess one week should not be enough!!
2) I thinK that the idea of not applying minoxidil after the procedure is not only linked to the risk of excessive absorption but also because it is desirable promote the inflammatory process as long as possible, and avoid application of antinflammatory products as emu oil, estrogens, pgd2 blockers, minoxidil, ecc.
Thank you and sorry form my english
everything below 1.5mm will only help delivery of topicals.
I am fully aware of that. In this case, with small needles, the minoxidil indeed is crucial. minoxidil dissolves hard fibrotic collagen tissue where it has "access", and the small wounds give minoxidil that access. Otherwise, the minoxidil is held off by the collagen it has not yet dissolved. minoxidil acts like acid on collagen - it first needs to dissolve the top layer until it can go deeper. The small wounds (that are first filled by very soft tissue) provide channels for the minoxidil to go deeper than without. That's at least my understanding.princessRambo said:The indian study clearly stated they have seen new follicle growth at the 6 weeks mark, and bear in mind, they didn't even apply that much pressure as they clearly stated they only rolled until mild redness. So what can we conclude from that, the needle didn't go deep enough to draw blood, but follicular neo genesis still somehow took place.
That is not 100% true, as shown by other studies:That is speculation, Cotsarelis' study shows that reduced gamma delta T cells producing FGF9 is the missing link between humans and rodents and why we don't usually grow hair after a wound.
All of us are doing speculative work here. In fact, that is the only thing we can do, as we are unable to do primary research: We can only try to piece the puzzle together. Some theories make sense, some don't. To determine which of them make sense, we discuss.Anything else is speculation.
That's basically what I mean: We cannot rely on minoxidil inducing PGE-2. As I said, I think all of this has to do with minoxidil being basically the same as adenosine, which boils down to two mechanisms:That is a bold statement, the truth is we just don't know how the heck minoxidil works or induces PGE2. There are even studies suggesting that minoxidil reduce PGE2 in certain environments:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2553835
But there are other studies suggesting the opposite effect, and also bear in mind in vivo vs in-vitro studies, concentration etc.
http://dslaboratories.co.uk/spectralDNC-L/BJD150MinoxidilMech.PDF
As this topic was already discussed in this thread here and some seem to take it personal, I will leave it out this time. There is at least one scientific report of the same happening in vivo, and many reports of users on the net.To say that this is speculation is an understatement, acid? dissolve what? huh? Minoxidil has been shown in some unusual high dosages to reduce collagen synthesis in cell cultures...
http://dslaboratories.co.uk/spectralDNC-L/BJD150MinoxidilMech.PDF
Cotsarelis was not the first one to try this. However, he was the first to induce deep (as in: deeper than just dermis) wounds alongside. And that's my point: Cotsarelis probably assumes that deep wounding is necessary, otherwise he wouldntve done it.The Cotsarelis FGF9 study was published JUNE 02 of this year, so you expect full FDA 3 phases clinical trials, and a product ready in slightly over 2 months? mkaaayyy
You guys..my question is this:" Is it worth it to go through all this for just a few hairs that won't be cosmetically noticeable"??
But notice the interesting part about those incidents of regrowth: Deep wounding, where deep tissue had to be replaced by the body. The body is in fact capable of generating follicles completely anew, as shown by these incidents - but only with deep wounding. If it also happened without deep wounds, (a) the solution for us would be easy, and (b) scratches would lead to undesired hair growth.Re-read what I said, "why we don't usually grow hair after a wound"
The study shows exactly where they cut - below the DP. And where are the DP nested? At the lowest part of the dermis, right on top of the subcutis.In fact it doesn't mention depth of wound in any precise way, or anything like that, you are speculating all that (I mean how the heck do you know whether it was deeper than the dermis or not?). It looks like deep wound from the figs provided in the study I agree
According to the study.. they were not going crazy with the derma-roller...
Microneedling procedure
The shaven scalp was prepared with betadine and normal saline. A dermaroller of 1.5 mm sized needles was rolled over the affected areas of the scalp in a longitudinal, vertical, and diagonal directions until mild erythema was noted, which was considered as the end point of the procedure. All patients were instructed not to apply Minoxidil on the day of procedure and to resume its application only 24 h after the Microneedling procedure.
I wonder if this procedure could help to reverse the gray hair too..
@the others: What do you use for disinfection of the roller and the skin?