Norwegian Terrorist, Does He Have a Point to Make

[Cassin]

These days the concept of globalisation is a one way street, it's OK for a Westerner to do business in any part of the world but it's not OK for those people to go to the West. Hypocrisy?

No...strawman on your part. And I am pretty sure you know boiling it down to that overly simplistic twisted point of view is so.

 

[Nene]

These days the concept of globalisation is a one way street, it's OK for a Westerner to do business in any part of the world but it's not OK for those people to go to the West. Hypocrisy?

No...strawman on your part. And I am pretty sure you know boiling it down to that overly simplistic twisted point of view is so.

I think it's a valid point. Both the UK and the US have become so successful in part by colonizing all across the world, and exploiting 3rd world countries for labor and resources. However, when the inhabitants of those countries try to come to the UK and US, suddenly it's a problem.

 

[Lloyd Braun]

These days the concept of globalisation is a one way street, it's OK for a Westerner to do business in any part of the world but it's not OK for those people to go to the West. Hypocrisy?

[/quote]

Very few westerners go and actually elect to permanently live in middle eastern countries. Besides, doing business is productive and people like Anjem Choudary are not productive.

 

[Cassin]

These days the concept of globalisation is a one way street, it's OK for a Westerner to do business in any part of the world but it's not OK for those people to go to the West. Hypocrisy?

No...strawman on your part. And I am pretty sure you know boiling it down to that overly simplistic twisted point of view is so.

I think it's a valid point. Both the UK and the US have become so successful in part by colonizing all across the world, and exploiting 3rd world countries for labor and resources. However, when the inhabitants of those countries try to come to the UK and US, suddenly it's a problem.

No, with all due respect it is still missing the point and again over simplifying the entire discussion in an odd 'pick & choose' area.

Nobody has a problem with a foreigner coming in and being a productive part of society...they have problems with those coming in and living off social programs and forcing their beliefs on natives.

 

[Lloyd Braun]

Nobody has a problem with a foreigner coming in and being a productive part of society...they have problems with those coming in and living off social programs and forcing their beliefs on natives.

I agree. If they were doing business then that would be good but many aren't. There is just no comparison here.

 

[virtuality]

Nobody has a problem with a foreigner coming in and being a productive part of society...

I have worked in a few countries and I can give you so many specific examples of where a legitimate person can not get a visa to go to the West.

Eg: 1. A goods manufacturer can't get visa to go and visit his customers or to try and get new costumers.
2. A guy sells heavy machinery made by a British company, but can't get British visa to visit his supplier.
3. A guy I went to school with, EU citizen, married a US citizen but the US refused him visa for so long. Now he's an employer in the US..
4. An US citizen I used to live with, got an Internet bride, but the US refused his bride a visa. She had to wait almost 2 years to join her husband.

The list goes on and on...

I do think it's a one way street.

 

[s.a.f]

And thats how it should be. Being the richer nations the U.S and UK hold all the cards (or should). Are we just expected to allow anyone who wants to come over and take a share of our wealth? Right now theres probably about 4 billion people on the planet who'd prefer to be living in the west. Should the U.S just open the border to mexico?
Look at Australia they have the right idea they dont let in anyone who does'nt have something to offer their country.

 

[Cassin]

Nobody has a problem with a foreigner coming in and being a productive part of society...

I have worked in a few countries and I can give you so many specific examples of where a legitimate person can not get a visa to go to the West.

Eg: 1. A goods manufacturer can't get visa to go and visit his customers or to try and get new costumers.
2. A guy sells heavy machinery made by a British company, but can't get British visa to visit his supplier.
3. A guy I went to school with, EU citizen, married a US citizen but the US refused him visa for so long. Now he's an employer in the US..
4. An US citizen I used to live with, got an Internet bride, but the US refused his bride a visa. She had to wait almost 2 years to join her husband.

The list goes on and on...

I do think it's a one way street.

So....supply & demand? That's how capitalism works and same with immigration. You can't open the flood gates wide open!

 

[virtuality]

Don't be so arrogant :smack: , I'm talking about legitimate businesses where the person form a non-Western country can't even visit his business partners or do business in the West because of the strict border controls.

Nobody is trying to take away your wealth, the Chinese do that pretty well even without setting a foot in your country. The Russians can strangle the EU economy pretty easily by limiting the energy supplies. The Russian example is just to show you the level of reliance you have on globalisation, and don't be so arrogant.

Did you hear the story about one of the Miliband brothers being literally told to f*ck off by a Russian minister during his visit to Russia a few years back, it was in the newspapers? Apparently, he was being arrogant presuming Britain had the upper hand in the argument.

Did I ever say you should open up your borders? All I'm saying is, there is no balance in the current system.

For example, it's a well known fact that there are more Brits living and working abroad than there are foreigners living and working in the UK. All you do is complain about foreigners coming to your country. Your economy has been based on globalisation way before the term globalisation was even coined and it will rely on globalisation until global warming takes half of your land away and then you'll be desperate to immigrate to other countries.... OK a bit extreme scenario :whistle:

 

[virtuality]

Nobody has a problem with a foreigner coming in and being a productive part of society...

I have worked in a few countries and I can give you so many specific examples of where a legitimate person can not get a visa to go to the West.

Eg: 1. A goods manufacturer can't get visa to go and visit his customers or to try and get new costumers.
2. A guy sells heavy machinery made by a British company, but can't get British visa to visit his supplier.
3. A guy I went to school with, EU citizen, married a US citizen but the US refused him visa for so long. Now he's an employer in the US..
4. An US citizen I used to live with, got an Internet bride, but the US refused his bride a visa. She had to wait almost 2 years to join her husband.

The list goes on and on...

I do think it's a one way street.

So....supply & demand? That's how capitalism works and same with immigration. You can't open the flood gates wide open!

You are absolutely right in your argument. I'm a EU citizen, and I like the way things are and I don't want the gates to be wide open.

I do think the current argument about immigration is not justified, we take the rest of the world for granted and we use and abuse any resources we can get hold of, but don't let the rest of the world have a share of what was theirs in the first place.

When someone from the East tries to create wealth for himself in a very legitimate way, we don't even let him to initiate business with us, but it's OK for us to initiate business with him. In the capitalist world this does not make sense and as one of the basic fundamentals of capitalism dictates monopolies are not good in long term.

 

[Cassin]

"When someone from the East tries to create wealth for himself in a very legitimate way, we don't even let him to initiate business with us, but it's OK for us to initiate business with him"

Yeah that's not true. Cmon. Hell I live in white people land and there is a dozen foreign owned small businesses in every direction.

 

[virtuality]

"When someone from the East tries to create wealth for himself in a very legitimate way, we don't even let him to initiate business with us, but it's OK for us to initiate business with him"

Yeah that's not true. Cmon. Hell I live in white people land and there is a dozen foreign owned small businesses in every direction.

I'm not talking about immigrants coming and setting up small shops in your country. I gave you specific examples where visa applications are rejected, those guys aren't even immigrants, they are legit business people.

For every 10 legitimate immigrants or visa applicants there is probably 1 or 2 illegitimate ones and sadly it's only those bad examples that make it to the news.

 

[Cassin]

Well all I can do is speak from the US side, not the UK.

 

[Cassin]

Virtuality...honestly I bet our views (including SAF) aren't too far off in the end. It seems we both believe in balance and there being no perfect answer.

 

[virtuality]

Virtuality...honestly I bet our views (including SAF) aren't too far off in the end. It seems we both believe in balance and there being no perfect answer.

Probably, it's just that I get really annoyed when people start talking about immigration.

I do admit there are lots of examples of immigration gone bad, but overall immigration is in our DNA and not such a bad thing.

I guess I'm one of those liberal lefties that some of the posters in this forum criticize.

 

[s.a.f]

"When someone from the East tries to create wealth for himself in a very legitimate way, we don't even let him to initiate business with us, but it's OK for us to initiate business with him"

Yeah that's not true. Cmon. Hell I live in white people land and there is a dozen foreign owned small businesses in every direction.

I'm not talking about immigrants coming and setting up small shops in your country. I gave you specific examples where visa applications are rejected, those guys aren't even immigrants, they are legit business people.

For every 10 legitimate immigrants or visa applicants there is probably 1 or 2 illegitimate ones and sadly it's only those bad examples that make it to the news.

C'mon its obvious from where I live just looking around its a case of poorer countries looking at what they have and seeing the UK as a haven where social security will raise their living standards. All they need to do is get a foot in the door and they can start claiming.

 

[Cassin]

Virtuality...honestly I bet our views (including SAF) aren't too far off in the end. It seems we both believe in balance and there being no perfect answer.

Probably, it's just that I get really annoyed when people start talking about immigration.

I do admit there are lots of examples of immigration gone bad, but overall immigration is in our DNA and not such a bad thing.

I guess I'm one of those liberal lefties that some of the posters in this forum criticize.

Well...I'm a liberal lefty too you could say. I'm just practical. The best things in life should only be available to those who are willing to do the work for it.

 

[virtuality]

"When someone from the East tries to create wealth for himself in a very legitimate way, we don't even let him to initiate business with us, but it's OK for us to initiate business with him"

Yeah that's not true. Cmon. Hell I live in white people land and there is a dozen foreign owned small businesses in every direction.

I'm not talking about immigrants coming and setting up small shops in your country. I gave you specific examples where visa applications are rejected, those guys aren't even immigrants, they are legit business people.

For every 10 legitimate immigrants or visa applicants there is probably 1 or 2 illegitimate ones and sadly it's only those bad examples that make it to the news.

C'mon its obvious from where I live just looking around its a case of poorer countries looking at what they have and seeing the UK as a haven where social security will raise their living standards. All they need to do is get a foot in the door and they can start claiming.

Out of the thousands that make it to the UK each year, show me how many of them start claiming the moment they set foot in your country. The answer is probably just a few special cases, 99% of them do not have the right to claim. It's only after they have been granted the right to stay that they can claim.

The number of people that get that right is not as high as you think it is. The EEA nationals do not count as immigrants.

 

[s.a.f]

Out of the thousands that make it to the UK each year, show me how many of them start claiming the moment they set foot in your country. The answer is probably just a few special cases, 99% of them do not have the right to claim. It's only after they have been granted the right to stay that they can claim.

The number of people that get that right is not as high as you think it is. The EEA nationals do not count as immigrants.

And thats the whole point they are not counted as immagrants but they are economic migrants. And the moment they get here they are using services they have'nt paid a penny towards.
And as for the rest do you think they are left to starve on the streets? Of course not. And as their circumstances are seen as being more desperate they can jump the queues.
They all know that all they have to do is get to the UK if rejected they can appeal the whole process of application takes along time many are just lost in the system and by the time its sorted they can always argue their human rights that they are now settled here. Remember the case of the Afghan plane hijackers?
We all all know that the % of immigrants that actual get deported is ridiculously miniscule.

 

[Lloyd Braun]

I'm a liberal lefty too you could say. I'm just practical. The best things in life should only be available to those who are willing to do the work for it.

:agree: This is not what liberals usually believe. I almost don't see how one could be a liberal and believe that at the same time. :shock: