Ok, dustateride was not the miracle we expected, whats next?

[bartolin]

Well, this many years waiting for dutas to be the silver bullet against male pattern baldness and it finally didn´t make it for the masses.
What are the big pharmaceuticals working on now?, what is the next propecia?, are we to expect something in the next decade before all of us receders go completely bald?

 

[Withnail]

HM?

 

[CCS]

chill dude

the reason dutasteride is not so good (I think) is because it lowers body DHT levels way more than scalp DHT levels, and the body DHT lowering causes side effects. The reason for the difference (I think) is that 5AR type II, which dutasteride prefers, takes up the dutasteride faster than type I does, and there is a lot more type II in the body to drink it up, and the scalp mostly has type I. The result is dutasteride does not start attacking type I until about 80% of DHT made by type II is gone. Check out the graph at myspace.

The obvious solution to all this is to put it directly on your scalp. Look at all my messages on this board, or look at the blocks on myspace, which I copy pasted from my messages. Please forgive their disorder. I don't have time to edit them now.

 

[bartolin]

HM?. Her Majesty?...

You are probably right college, I guess topical anti-DHT products are the next thing to come.
I did crush some proscar pills in alcohol to aply them in my scalp, but it didn´t dissolve. :?

 

[Bryan]

I did crush some proscar pills in alcohol to aply them in my scalp, but it didn´t dissolve. :?

The finasteride dissolved, but not the tablet fillers and excipients.

Bryan

 

[CCS]

how to prepare topical finasteride

Finasteride dissolved. All the other stuff did not. a cubic centimeter of water weighs 1 gram. A cubic inch of water weighs 16.4 grams. That proscar pill probably weights 200mg. a mg is 1/1000th of a gram. There is only 5 mg of finasteride in that pill. The other 195 mg is what you see undissolved. It is mostly starch and talc and other crap just so you can hold the pill in your hand and the finasteride won't be exposed to the elements as much and will last for years. If you don't grind it well enough (meaning there are little chuncks) than only the finasteride attached the the surface of the chucks will dissolve in the ethanol (you can use everclear, but 70% isopropyl alcohol is cheaper and should work as well and eveaporate slower.). So grind it good and maybe grind it some more after adding some drops of alcohol. This will also keep them from getting all over the place. Then add more alcohol and stir up the chunks good. Do this by putting the mess in an emtpy rogain bottle, adding rogaine, shaking good, and letting the chucks settle over an hour (since I doubt you have a filter, and I don't know if finasteride will have an affinity for the filter). Most of the finasteride should be in solution then. Once it is settled (kind of difficult to see in a non-clear bottle - maybe use a small clear container instead), carefully pour the liquid into another rogaine bottle and try to leave the chuncks behind. The chunks are not bad, but they can clog pores a little and interfer with finasteride absorption in your scalp.

Congratualations: the 5AR type II in your follicles will get first shot at the finasteride before you prostate gets it. Bad news: most of the 5AR in your scalp is skin is type I, which finasteride has little affect on. The type I will continue to make DHT which will diffuse over into the follicles anyway. That is why I'm getting dutasteride. However, this would happen anyway if you had swallowed the finasteride. And this way, your body gets a lower dose and will have less side effects.

Now the big question is, how much of the finasteride actually makes it through the skin, and how much is wasted on the surface, and is enough wasted to make this technique more expensive than just taking the pill? While I did some real speculation with Dutasteride, which looks like testosterone with an extra benzene ring on it and therefore may absorbe differently, I do know that finasteride looks almost exacly like testosterone (the similar shape is how it tricks 5AR to take it instead of testosterone, and then it gets stuck in the enzyme, shutting it down). I also know that 1/3 of high dose testosterone patches in a paste will make it through the skin. I also know that the lower the dose, the higher the percentage that makes it through. And the more liquidy the dose, the higher the percentage. So I think you will be just fine. And remember than about 60% of dutasteride is absorbed in the gut, and not all finasteride is absorbed in the gut either, so if some stays on your scalp, that is not a big difference from the oral route.

Use minoxidil if you can handle it, and use 70% isopropyl alcohol if you can handle. Use at least 1 pill per month, but use what you can handle without side effects. Some of the finasteride will make it to the blood stream and to your body, but you can adjust your dose as needed. I personally would use the 3-6 pills per month if I were going to do it.

 

[CCS]

you really should mix some 5% minoxidil in with the isopropyl rubbing alcohol if you can tolerate it. the propylene glycol will slow the evaporation time so that the finasteride has more time to be absorbed before it dries. Once it dries, anything on the skins surface will stay there. Also, minoxidil does more than just grow hair: it stops scaring and other stuff that lead to permenant hair loss later. If you use more than one tablet per month, consider making smaller batches every two weeks, just incase the finasteride breaks down faster in liquid. Unlike dutasteride, which has a 5 week half life in the human body, finasteride has a 4 hour half life. While the liver is responsible for metabolizing it and your bottle does not have a liver, I'd still take the precaution. My knowledge of chemistry and functional groups tells me that nothing in minoxidil should react with finasteride, but I'd still play it safe, unless you are really busy and just want to make it once a month. You should be fine.

Oh, and most of the studies that say topical finasteride does not work used ground pill paste on the head. If I would have known about the studies before the finished, I would have bet all my college financial aid that they were going to fail, and I'd be rich now.

 

[Guest]

Well, this many years waiting for dutas to be the silver bullet against male pattern baldness and it finally didn´t make it for the masses.
What are the big pharmaceuticals working on now?, what is the next propecia?, are we to expect something in the next decade before all of us receders go completely bald?

Many were expecting dutasteride to do a miracle because science has not yet fully understood hair los and thinks androgens are what is really causing hair loss.

I don't think androgens are so bad for hair as science is thinking. I don't know for sure, but neither do scientists.

Stay away from Dutasteride and Finasteride. They both mess with your hormones, decreasing DHT to almost nothing for Dutasteride and increasing T and Estradiol.

What a poor/unintelligent way of trying to regain some hair! If your head hurts you are not going to cut it of!

 

[ShedMaster]

Re: how to prepare topical finasteride

Finasteride dissolved. All the other stuff did not. a cubic centimeter of water weighs 1 gram. A cubic inch of water weighs 16.4 grams. That proscar pill probably weights 200mg. a mg is 1/1000th of a gram. There is only 5 mg of finasteride in that pill. The other 195 mg is what you see undissolved. It is mostly starch and talc and other crap just so you can hold the pill in your hand and the finasteride won't be exposed to the elements as much and will last for years. If you don't grind it well enough (meaning there are little chuncks) than only the finasteride attached the the surface of the chucks will dissolve in the ethanol (you can use everclear, but 70% isopropyl alcohol is cheaper and should work as well and eveaporate slower.). So grind it good and maybe grind it some more after adding some drops of alcohol. This will also keep them from getting all over the place. Then add more alcohol and stir up the chunks good. Do this by putting the mess in an emtpy rogain bottle, adding rogaine, shaking good, and letting the chucks settle over an hour (since I doubt you have a filter, and I don't know if finasteride will have an affinity for the filter). Most of the finasteride should be in solution then. Once it is settled (kind of difficult to see in a non-clear bottle - maybe use a small clear container instead), carefully pour the liquid into another rogaine bottle and try to leave the chuncks behind. The chunks are not bad, but they can clog pores a little and interfer with finasteride absorption in your scalp.

Congratualations: the 5AR type II in your follicles will get first shot at the finasteride before you prostate gets it. Bad news: most of the 5AR in your scalp is skin is type I, which finasteride has little affect on. The type I will continue to make DHT which will diffuse over into the follicles anyway. That is why I'm getting dutasteride. However, this would happen anyway if you had swallowed the finasteride. And this way, your body gets a lower dose and will have less side effects.

Now the big question is, how much of the finasteride actually makes it through the skin, and how much is wasted on the surface, and is enough wasted to make this technique more expensive than just taking the pill? While I did some real speculation with Dutasteride, which looks like testosterone with an extra benzene ring on it and therefore may absorbe differently, I do know that finasteride looks almost exacly like testosterone (the similar shape is how it tricks 5AR to take it instead of testosterone, and then it gets stuck in the enzyme, shutting it down). I also know that 1/3 of high dose testosterone patches in a paste will make it through the skin. I also know that the lower the dose, the higher the percentage that makes it through. And the more liquidy the dose, the higher the percentage. So I think you will be just fine. And remember than about 60% of dutasteride is absorbed in the gut, and not all finasteride is absorbed in the gut either, so if some stays on your scalp, that is not a big difference from the oral route.

Use minoxidil if you can handle it, and use 70% isopropyl alcohol if you can handle. Use at least 1 pill per month, but use what you can handle without side effects. Some of the finasteride will make it to the blood stream and to your body, but you can adjust your dose as needed. I personally would use the 3-6 pills per month if I were going to do it.

Maybe you could go into a little more detail. These half-written crib notes are not sufficient. :lol:

 

[nervx]

Well, this many years waiting for dutas to be the silver bullet against male pattern baldness and it finally didn´t make it for the masses.

From what i understand dutasteride didn't make it to the hair market because of profit margins and crap like that. I would still give it a shot if you haven't. Just ask your doctor for a prescription and use your drug coverage to chop the price down.

 

[michael barry]

Guys,

Even if you get CASTRATED and have almost no testosterone..........................all you do is pretty much stop losing hair and regain just a bit of what youve lost. You proabably wouldnt grow back hair thats been lost for 4 or 5 years.

Type 2 alpha five created DHT is in your hair follicles and liver and prostate. Type 1 is in your skins sebocytes and sebaceous gland as well as your brain and some deeper tissues in the body.

Men who have no type 2 alpha five genetically never bald (Guatemalean pseudohermaphrodites) but dont gain noticeable male genitalia until after puberty. They never get acne or have prostate problems, but otherwise lead healthy lives.

Propecia gets about 90% of type 2 created DHT, but not all of it. Its been bandied about on the forums that the excess testosterone that doesnt get converted to DHT may lead to a big increase in the sebocytes and sebaceous glands to make alot more of type one, thus some of the excess actually getting to the hair enough to damage it. Thats speculation. Dutasteride gets 98% of type 2 and about half of type 1.


There WILL BE NO wonder drug for baldness in the order of alpha five inhibitors. Dutasteride, which you can buy generically all over the internet, is about as good as thats going to get. It will be good for those just starting to see recession that get on it early. They'll probably keep about what they have for many, many years. BUT there are biological questions about cutting the type 1 DHT production because its in YOUR BRAIN. WE have a biological model for men without type 2 alpha five reductase, but not type 1. I wouldn't want cancer in my 40s to have hair in my twenties would you?

In other words, Id stick with propecia if I were young. Avodart, Dutasteride, was made for older men with prostate hyperplasia so bad that they have to get up 4 times a night to piss, not 22 year olds losing their hairline.


If one ads a copper peptide to propecia and possibly an anti-androgen topical like spironolactone (2X a day) or the free form fatty acids of revivogen, they could probably feel good that they "are doing what they can". Some people's baldness genes are overwhelmingly strong though and even all of that wont keep a slow recession from happening. Keep that in mind. The earlier your start balding, in most cases the stronger your inclination to bald.

 

[Goingat20]

Good post Michael, im thinking of dropping dutasteride and going back to finasteride, im too young to be taking dutasteride :?

 

[HARM1]

Guys,

Even if you get CASTRATED and have almost no testosterone..........................all you do is pretty much stop losing hair and regain just a bit of what youve lost. You proabably wouldnt grow back hair thats been lost for 4 or 5 years.

Type 2 alpha five created DHT is in your hair follicles and liver and prostate. Type 1 is in your skins sebocytes and sebaceous gland as well as your brain and some deeper tissues in the body.

Men who have no type 2 alpha five genetically never bald (Guatemalean pseudohermaphrodites) but dont gain noticeable male genitalia until after puberty. They never get acne or have prostate problems, but otherwise lead healthy lives.

Propecia gets about 90% of type 2 created DHT, but not all of it. Its been bandied about on the forums that the excess testosterone that doesnt get converted to DHT may lead to a big increase in the sebocytes and sebaceous glands to make alot more of type one, thus some of the excess actually getting to the hair enough to damage it. Thats speculation. Dutasteride gets 98% of type 2 and about half of type 1.


There WILL BE NO wonder drug for baldness in the order of alpha five inhibitors. Dutasteride, which you can buy generically all over the internet, is about as good as thats going to get. It will be good for those just starting to see recession that get on it early. They'll probably keep about what they have for many, many years. BUT there are biological questions about cutting the type 1 DHT production because its in YOUR BRAIN. WE have a biological model for men without type 2 alpha five reductase, but not type 1. I wouldn't want cancer in my 40s to have hair in my twenties would you?

In other words, Id stick with propecia if I were young. Avodart, Dutasteride, was made for older men with prostate hyperplasia so bad that they have to get up 4 times a night to piss, not 22 year olds losing their hairline.


If one ads a copper peptide to propecia and possibly an anti-androgen topical like spironolactone (2X a day) or the free form fatty acids of revivogen, they could probably feel good that they "are doing what they can". Some people's baldness genes are overwhelmingly strong though and even all of that wont keep a slow recession from happening. Keep that in mind. The earlier your start balding, in most cases the stronger your inclination to bald.

So we have people with a lack of 5AR2 and they never go bald, but also have small dicks, that's it? why doesnt DHT MADE BY 5AR1 GET THEIR HAIR, or develop their sexual organs?

 

[CCS]

type I question

That is a good question. Why does typeI in the sebum glands not affect the nearby follicles? Is DHT stuck inside the sells while testosterone and finasteride are free to move about? Or are some hairs just sensitive and others not? I read that balding hairs have twice as many androgen receptors as non-balding hairs. I guess the dht from 5AR1 in the skin does not reach the genitals, or at least not in high enough amounts.

98% of typeII and 50% of typeI? In what dose? 0.5mg/day or 2.5mg/day? I did not know about that brain fact. I'll just use finasteride as my oral back up. I'll still put two capsules of dutasteride in my minoxidil though, at least for the first year. dutasteride can't go through the skull, and any dutasteride leaving the scalp via the blood will be swept to the heart first and diluted through the body before reaching the brain. I'll just have to make sure my body gets less than the equivalent of an oral 0.1mg. You guys really should look at a graph on myspace. It looks like dutasteride goes after type II first and does not touch type I until pretty close to the 0.5mg dose.

 

[michael barry]

Harm1 wrote: "So we have people with a lack of 5AR2 and they never go bald, but also have small dicks, that's it? why doesnt DHT MADE BY 5AR1 GET THEIR HAIR, or develop their sexual organs?"

I dont think I ever read anyting about these men's adult genitalia being aversley effected in any way, and in fact if that did happen, Im pretty sure that the articles Ive read on it would have pointed that out. I would almost bet the house that their genitals are normally sized, they just dont really start to develop big time until after the testosterone upshot of puberty.


Collegechemistry student,
you wrote: " I read that balding hairs have twice as many androgen receptors as non-balding hairs."...................German scientist discovered a variant of the androgen receptor gene that 98.6% of baldning men they studied had and only 76.1% of non-balding men had. Its been noted that balding men tend to have more androgen receptors on their follicles in the male pattern baldness area than non-bald men and that hairs on top of the head have more receptors than hairs on the sides.

As for DHT, most of it, if youve read Bryan's extremely well-informed posts, that probably gets transcirpted by the androgen receptors is made very, very near the follicle. Most is likely made in the alpha five type 2 in the root sheath of the follicle itself. Thats a shitty place for that enzyme to make a home for us men with male pattern baldness, but she is there.

Youre mixing dutasteride with your minoxidil. I dont know if the dutasteride would chemically break down in the minoxidil or not. Bryan would probably know of any topical dutasteride studies, but the fact that dutasteride has not been commercialized topically kinda says alot. It may penetrate the skin extremely well and end up having a systemic effect.

Collegechemistrystudent,

Let me give you an example................flutamide is probably the best androgen-receptor blocker that is made. Its available in creams as well as pills. Its been tested on both sides of hamster flank organs as well as weaker anti-androgens like spironolactone. spironolactone can be put on the left part of the flank organ and cut down on its growth and hair on it, but not effect the right. Flutamide can be put on the left flank organ and effect the right (and proabably the rest of the animal). Of the past 2 years or so of reading hairloss sites, I think that about 90% of the guys Ive seen who experimented with flutamide regrew a bit of hair, but had horrible systemic sides even though they just used it topically. Bad diareaha, nausea, real gynochemosstia (tits), fluid shifting in the bod (big hips like your girlfriend), ...................transexuals are often prescribed this drug orally. It will keep the hair you have, it will also mess with your liver and pretty much turn you into a girl.


Lots of people use spironolactone topically with minoxidil. It has to be used twice a day. If you were taking finasteride too with spironolactone, you'd be cutting androgens way, way down. They can be applied together, but if you store them together the smell is god-awful. Its sold at minoxidl.com, lipoxidil.com, and genhair.com right off the top of my head.

 

[Goingat20]

i apply flutamide on my hair line once a day, do you think this is sufficient enough to get me those sides?

 

[HARM1]

Harm1 wrote: "So we have people with a lack of 5AR2 and they never go bald, but also have small dicks, that's it? why doesnt DHT MADE BY 5AR1 GET THEIR HAIR, or develop their sexual organs?"

I dont think I ever read anyting about these men's adult genitalia being aversley effected in any way, and in fact if that did happen, Im pretty sure that the articles Ive read on it would have pointed that out. I would almost bet the house that their genitals are normally sized, they just dont really start to develop big time until after the testosterone upshot of puberty."

No friend, this is why pregnet women are to stay away from finasteride:
"DHT is necessary for the development of male genitalia in utero, and the resulting DHT deficency results in ambiguous external genitalia at birth. The condition affects only chromosomal males (i.e., those with XY chromosomes). Individuals with 5-ARD lack a uterus and Fallopian tubes (due to the normal action of Mullerian inhibiting factor), and possess testicles and Wolffian structures. Their external genitalia, however, can vary from normal male external genitalia, to ambiguous genitalia, to normal female genitalia (although with a tendency towards an enlarged clitoris). In the later cases the Wolffian ducts terminate in the perineum or in a pseudovagina. 5-ARD constitutes a variety of intersexualism."
READ MORE ABOUT : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha-re ... deficiency
DHT is very important.

 

[Bryan]

So we have people with a lack of 5AR2 and they never go bald, but also have small dicks, that's it?

Yes. That's exactly right.

why doesnt DHT MADE BY 5AR1 GET THEIR HAIR, or develop their sexual organs?

As Dr. Proctor has been saying for years on alt.baldspot, endocrinologists generally feel that DHT has an effect only in the cells where it's actually produced (or probably a bit more accurately, MOSTLY where it's produced). To put it another way, DHT isn't much of an endocrine hormone, it's mainly an autocrine hormone.

As I've mentioned recently in other threads, I feel the reason for that is basically that DHT is eliminated fairly rapidly, once it hits the bloodstream. It's eliminated before it has much of a chance to travel to other parts of the body to other target cells. Furthermore, only a relatively small percentage of DHT molecules actually "leak out" of the cells where they're produced into the bloodstream, in the first place. Most of them bind to androgen receptors where they're produced, so the numbers in the blood are actually relatively small. That fact, together with their rapid elimination if they DO hit the bloodstream, means that DHT doesn't have very much of an endocrine effect in other parts of the body. It's locally-produced cellular DHT which does the lion's share of the dirty work! :wink:

Bryan

 

[Bryan]

Re: type I question

That is a good question. Why does typeI in the sebum glands not affect the nearby follicles? Is DHT stuck inside the sells while testosterone and finasteride are free to move about? Or are some hairs just sensitive and others not? I read that balding hairs have twice as many androgen receptors as non-balding hairs. I guess the dht from 5AR1 in the skin does not reach the genitals, or at least not in high enough amounts.

Exactly! See my previous post. Only relatively small numbers of DHT molecules make it to the bloodstream in the first place (according to a study I once read), and once they do, they're eliminated fairly rapidly (according to Gisleskog), so relatively few of them make it to other androgenic target cells in the body. DHT is mainly an autocrine hormone, not an endocrine hormone.

98% of typeII and 50% of typeI? In what dose? 0.5mg/day or 2.5mg/day?

If you study the graphs from the other Gisleskog study, you can estimate from them that the standard Avodart dose of 0.5 mg/day inhibits 98%-99% of the type 2 enzyme, and probably a bit over half of the type 1 enzyme. Here's a scan of the relevant graphs from that study:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride2b.htm

You guys really should look at a graph on myspace. It looks like dutasteride goes after type II first and does not touch type I until pretty close to the 0.5mg dose.

dutasteride is considerably less potent against type 1 than it is against type 2. It's an absolutely AWESOME, butt-kicking type 2 inhibitor, so that's always the first thing you notice when you see charts and graphs of what happens with increasing dutasteride doses! :wink:

Bryan

 

[CCS]

that sounds believable

I see no reason why a cell would make more DHT than it needs. And if cells depended on DHT from, say, some endocrine structure, then why would it also be made in the cells? I think most immune responses are localized to nearby lymph nodes, so DHT production is probably similar. I know that the testosterone that feeds DHT production is made by the indocrine system, but if 5AR is inside the cells.

OK. New question. If scalp DHT levels (I'm guessing that means blood scalp) decrease by 38% due to propecia, what percentage of DHT do you think is inhibited inside the cell?

I'm going to go hunt around on Doctor Proctor's site and look at that paper again.

Hmmm....one other question. If DHT is produced in the cell and slowly leaks out in small quantities, and it is metabolized in the liver and not in the cell, that means the cells produce it at the same rate it leaks, just enough to replace what leaks while the build up in the cell goes to receptors. Since the amount that leaks is small, and the amount that is produced is small, and the cell traps enough to keep a high load, this explains why DHT levels take time to return once knocked out...OK that was not a question.

I'm just setting up balances trying to figure out how much is in the cell.

Do you think a higher finasteride concentration in the scalp near the follicles could inhibit significantly more intracellular DHT?