PLEASE BRAINSTORM-HOW TO AVOID/DELAY minoxidil TOLERANCE

[HAIRLOSSMILITANT]

Hi Everyone,
As some of you may know, I'm really pissed by the issue of minoxidil tolerance. I used the 5% last year for 6 months with almost complete recovery/regrowth. I was under the impression that you would "maintain" or hold on to the new hair as long as you continued to use it. Then after reading stuff here and there, gosh! This stuff starts to lose its effectiveness after a few years and you get "thinner". Gosh, what a big lie that you can hold on to your hair with continued usage!

So, as promised earlier, I have come up with a few "formula strategies" on how to avoid or alteast delay the minoxidil tolerance. (ok I know some of you don't call it a tolerance but as far as I'm concerned, it is like a tolerance). OK, please help brainstorm in your comments on my formulas as follows:

FORMULA 1)
Simply use it for a while of 6 months and then stop. Thats what I'm doing now. Once you start losing again (average time is around 4 months?), start all over. My question is whether the "effective period" of 2-3 years will be "renewed" here. Gosh, hope you get my point. So sort to speak you get "thick and thin"..."thick and thin"..."thick and thin"... BETTER THAN thick thick thick thick.....then after 2-3 years...thin thin thin thin ;-(

FORMULA 2)
Use 2% for 2-3 years until effectiveness starts to die out. Then go on 5%. My question again: will the 2-3 year effectiveness be "renewed". That means: if I then switched to 5% after 2% stopped working, will I have some regrowth or atleast some maintenance for a continued period of time?

FORMULA 3)
Instead of stopping hair treatment completely as in Formula 1), why not stop minoxidil after 6 months and then go on a completely different "stimulating tract". So lets ask, how powerful is a "stimulating combo" of T-Flav + Folligen compared to minoxidil on its own? Can we "rotate" 6 month intervals between minoxidil and the combo of T-Flav + Folligen? Is there any other commercial growth stimulant to add to this combo to make it as powerful as minoxidil on its own? So that during the 6 month "switch" you can still have some growth or atleast maintain what you have. Then more importantly, during the switch back to minoxidil, will it start to work again? Is the 2-3 year effective period then renewed?

Please everyone help. minoxidil is the only deadly weapon I have as I don't respond to Propecia. My idea is how to avoid the tolerance and that the 2-3 year effective period is regularly "renewed", you see what I mean. Please help me find a way around it. I'm surprised no one ever talks about this.

(I will also consider gourmetstylewellness.com's recommendation to try Revovogen + spironolactone since Propecia did not work for me/ but wouldn't Fluridil be better than spironolactone?)
Thanks all.

 

[Guest]

Ignoring your crazy theory for a second....you say you had great re-growth after 6 months.

When did you 1st see signs that it was working well?

 

[HAIRLOSSMILITANT]

I had shedding during the first 4 weeks and in the 5th week there was almost a complete stop in hairloss. In the 8th week could start seeing more "thickness". However, I should point out the minoxidil I used was "Remox" which is Minox5% + Tretinoin.
I'm starting to lose hair again. But I'm quite firm on saving the minoxidil for later due to the explanations by Dr.Proctor and Dr.Lee below.
Please help me on how to avoid the minoxidil tolerance issue.


randy schroeter asked: "Dr. Proctor, My regular doctor (who is not a hair/skin specialist) says that Rogaine is effective for only 2 years after treatments begin, then hair loss will recur - Is this correct? Regards, Randy Schroeter"

Dr Peter H. Proctor, PhD MD answered: "
Sort of. While it can work indefinitely, in many persons, topical minoxidil does lose its efficacy within 2-3 years after startign treatment. This is likely a combination of drug tolerance per se plus progression of the balding process. However, you are still likely better off than if you had never used minoxidil at all.

Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD
http://www.drproctor.com>....."

ALSO BY DR.LEE
However, with the medications currently available the amount of scalp hair regrowth is maximized after approximately two years of treatment and it's unlikely that more hair follicles will be recruited to produce a terminal hair shaft again after that time. Some patients will be able to maintain the hair on the scalp with continued treatment, but most patients will gradually see some thinning again. At the end of four and five year studies, patients who stayed on treatment definitely did much better than untreated patients, but the positive results had declined from the second year.

In your case, the positive results were completely reversed. The causal factors have to do with the genetic coding for your hair follicles, not with the "lost effectiveness" of the Propecia and topical minoxidil. Although it may be difficult to accept (and even more difficult to prove), your continued use of these medications probably ameliorated the rapid hair loss.

Richard Lee, M.D. "

 

[Bryan]

Hi Everyone,
As some of you may know, I'm really pissed by the issue of minoxidil tolerance. I used the 5% last year for 6 months with almost complete recovery/regrowth. I was under the impression that you would "maintain" or hold on to the new hair as long as you continued to use it.

You were under the WRONG impression. Minoxidil probably doesn't interfere with the fundamental balding process in any way. All it does is provide an "offset" of extra growth, above and beyond what you would have at any given point in time. But balding basically continues at about the same rate.

Then after reading stuff here and there, gosh! This stuff starts to lose its effectiveness after a few years and you get "thinner".

I don't really think it loses effectiveness, it's just that the balding process continues its onward march...

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Bryan,

I would agree with your statement when taken in the context of minoxidil being used by itself.

However, I would say its value along with DHT fighters, anti inflammatories and the like has to be reevaluated.

Just my little theory.

:lol:

 

[Bryan]

Let's hear more about your theory!

Bryan

 

[Guest]

Let's hear more about your theory!

Bryan

In short, as I understand it, one of minoxidil's more significant action is to delay the onset of follicle minaturization. If you test minoxidil independent of reducing DHT and inflammation, you get one result over time. In effect, minxo like propecia, tends to run into a law of diminishing returns.

However, my theroy is that if you attack male pattern baldness by reducing DHT AND inflammation (and perhaps by increasing follicle blood suppy ala folligen) YOU MAY greatly enhance the longevity and effectiveness of minoxidil's actions.

To my knowledge, no one has tried to do this kind of study. However, it is my theory as to why I could regrow hair at age 52 by adding propecia after I had been on minoxidil for say, 12 yrs.

Thoughts??

 

[Bryan]

However, my theroy is that if you attack male pattern baldness by reducing DHT AND inflammation (and perhaps by increasing follicle blood suppy ala folligen) YOU MAY greatly enhance the longevity and effectiveness of minoxidil's actions.

Hmmm.... Well, at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum, I'll point out again that minoxidil's only "action" is to provide an offset of extra growth. In my opinion, any extension in time of the successful use of minoxidil by the simultaneous use of an antiandrogen or 5a-reductase inhibitor should be considered an effect of the antiandrogen or inhibitor itself, not the minoxidil (I hope that makes sense! ).

To my knowledge, no one has tried to do this kind of study.

I'm reminded of the famous stumptailed macaque test where they were given both topical minoxidil and oral finasteride. The hairgrowth was merely ADDITIVE, not synergistic.

Bryan

 

[GourmetStyleWellness]

The hairgrowth was merely ADDITIVE, not synergistic.

Buh-buh-buh-bingggggooo.

Thanks Bryan.

gourmetstylewellness.com

 

[Guest]

>>In my opinion, any extension in time of the successful use of minoxidil by the simultaneous use of an antiandrogen or 5a-reductase inhibitor should be considered an effect of the antiandrogen or inhibitor itself, not the minoxidil (I hope that makes sense! ). >>


Yes, that makes sense and we don't know for sure as of yet. Still, that does suggest that it is not necessary to delay the use of minoxidil to avoid it petering out prematurely, IF you are using other treatments. Would you agree?

 

[Bryan]

>>In my opinion, any extension in time of the successful use of minoxidil by the simultaneous use of an antiandrogen or 5a-reductase inhibitor should be considered an effect of the antiandrogen or inhibitor itself, not the minoxidil (I hope that makes sense! ). >>

Yes, that makes sense and we don't know for sure as of yet. Still, that does suggest that it is not necessary to delay the use of minoxidil to avoid it petering out prematurely, IF you are using other treatments. Would you agree?

YES! That's exactly the way I feel!!

I don't know of any reason to think that it ever "peters out" (please note that I reserve the right to change my mind, if some good evidence to the contrary comes out). But if you eventually get bald enough, even that "offset of growth" that you get from minoxidil won't do you any good. That's not a fault of the minoxidil (to the best of my knowledge), it's a fault of the fundamental balding process at work in your hair follicles.

Bryan

 

[Guest]

so basically you are saying that if you add a DHT inhibiter, it can greatly increase the life of minoxidil. It seems probable because then you are fighting male pattern baldness from the inside and on the outside you are stimulateing hair growth.

 

[Guest]

Thanks Bryan! :lol:

 

[Guest]

so basically you are saying that if you add a DHT inhibiter, it can greatly increase the life of minoxidil. It seems probable because then you are fighting male pattern baldness from the inside and on the outside you are stimulateing hair growth.

Yes, and I would be sure to add anti inflammatories like TGEL and nizoral.

 

[Shinyscalp23]

?

I was under the impression that 2 years down the road using minoxidil 2X a day every day...whatever results you have then are the maximum results you'll ever see on the stuff--and those results will vary from individual to individual...not that the effects of minoxidil or the medicine's effectiveness itself will diminish..just that they will have simply reached their threshold..in other words..2 years later whatever regrowth -err--growth you see is the most youll ever get out of it..and further use will only keep your condition in its current state...its like a plus and minus thing..minoxidil grows hair-it doesnt stop hair loss, per se. Maintenance of your current state will simply mean that the growth you perceive as regrowth is just making up for any loss youre continuing to experience(aka maintenance)..unless you also take a dht inhibitor as well...now if youre like me--ive been on and off minoxidil for god 6 years now ..been losing my hair since im 16 i used the 5% religiously for 8 months..stopped and didnt lose anythign till 8 months later-thats a yr and 4 months since the first day is started my regimen(they say your hairloss will resume in 3 to 4 months so im the perfect of example of showing u how everyone's experience varies). then i had a shed from hell-never in my life, did i have such a bad shed-until later down the road...then i started this precombined formula of minoxidil 5% with tretinoin .025...worked amazingly..what took 8 months on the regular stuff took only 3 on this...then i stopped it...3 months later massive shed...started the minoxidil/retin a combo again..had an even worse shed..but now, its month 3 again..and i look pretty damn good i dont even need to use toppik anymore.. anyways..if you could develop a tolerance, all i can say is i havent and ive been on and off this stuff for years and this time i am NOT going off it-period--but i digress, lol--guys just put the crap on your head, chill out and stop worrying..maintenance is a good thing and so on..chill out chill out chill out this whole what if it stops working neurosis will only give u stress and we know stress isnt good for hair loss..use the medicine, take a xanax, and relax lol

 

[The Gardener]

Despite the short window of regrowth opportunity from minoxidil which most seem to peg at two years, I think most people underestimate just what two years of regrowth can mean for a hairline.

Instead of continuing downstream for two years, continuing to shed, losing hair count, for two years you have a shot at actually INCREASING some haircount. And then, even if things progress at the same rate, you are not only 2 years ahead, you are actually FOUR years ahead. You gained two years by stopping the progression of recession. And, you gained an additional two years, potentially, or perhaps even more if you are a great responder, by increasing haircount during those same two years that a non-treated person would continue to receed.

This, in conjunction with the fact that hairloss/recession episodes seem to come in starts and fits, i.e., you receed for a year, then maintain for two or three, then receed for a year, etc, etc.. means that minoxidil usage can actually delay your norwood several years, perhaps 5 or 10 or more, from what it is actually genetically pre-programmed to do.

 

[Rust1]

I tried many different approaches with minoxidil over the years, going all the way back to about '97. I was a good responder. Not only did I try stopping/starting after many months, I also played around with the amount. I was down to a ridiculously small amount once a day. It still worked, but not as well. It seemed once I got to a point with the tinkering, there were diminishing returns. But that only happened when I got down to less than 1/2 mil once a day.

I'd also imagine it can depend on how far advanced the male pattern baldness is to start with. When I started I still had most of the hair, just the beginnings of thinning.

Good luck

 

[Rust1]

Despite the short window of regrowth opportunity from minoxidil which most seem to peg at two years, I think most people underestimate just what two years of regrowth can mean for a hairline.

Instead of continuing downstream for two years, continuing to shed, losing hair count, for two years you have a shot at actually INCREASING some haircount. And then, even if things progress at the same rate, you are not only 2 years ahead, you are actually FOUR years ahead. You gained two years by stopping the progression of recession. And, you gained an additional two years, potentially, or perhaps even more if you are a great responder, by increasing haircount during those same two years that a non-treated person would continue to receed.

This, in conjunction with the fact that hairloss/recession episodes seem to come in starts and fits, i.e., you receed for a year, then maintain for two or three, then receed for a year, etc, etc.. means that minoxidil usage can actually delay your norwood several years, perhaps 5 or 10 or more, from what it is actually genetically pre-programmed to do.

This was a very interesting post. This is how I feel about it. Of all the opinions about minoxidil, minoxidil vs. finasteride, etc..., I always looked at it this way.

At the end of the day, no matter what you're pouring on your head, if it grows hair....well, there you go. minoxidil is looked at as an artificial sense of security, while with finasteride the hair follicle stays healthier. But, put one guy on finasteride and one on minoxidil and fast forward 20 years (with no other intervening treatments)........

.......aren't we just buying time either way?

It's sort of like the guy on here one time that said something along these lines regarding Nizoral. Someone said 'well it only thickens the hair like 7% over the course of however long...' and the reply was something like:
'well, I'm operating on the theory that if it's getting thicker then it's not getting thinner.......'

 

[MiddleAgedManiac]

The Mental Side

One more benefit of minoxidil would be on the mental side. If you see the hairs growing it does wonders for your confidence, and confidence could equal better results! It's the whole mind over matter thing.

 

[too bald too furious]

I am only hoping that Finasteride and minoxidil can give me 10 yrs.

5 yrs of Finasteride alone.

THEN

5 yrs of Finasteride + 5% minoxidil.

I am 24 now..I will be happy to be Norwood 2.5 by 35. After that hopefully newer treatments will be out..possibly a cure :wink: