Propecia and 5AR1

[ladysmanfelpz]

Quantum or at least someone get back to me. I brought up great evidence and no one has anything to say about it??!!

 

[Quantum Cat]

maybe dutasteride is the better drug for male pattern baldness then, going on that evidence it seems so, but it conflicts with what Bryan said earlier in the thread

If Type I is the main factor in male pattern baldness why did they develop Propecia and not a dutasteride-based hairloss pill? Maybe dutasteride could give worse side effects

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

Well thats the thing I don't get. I know a lot of people b**ch about the pharma companies on here, but I still don't get why they haven't taken advantage of this. Propecia is prescribed at 1/5 the regular dose for hairloss as it is for Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia, I don't get why dutasteride isn't prescribed at 1/5 the dose for hair loss. The studies show it is more effective in hair regrowth and also keeps your serum DHT higher, so side effects would be less common. I have never published research but I may look at it Quantum to try and influence pharma companies. If we had .1 mg dutasteride pills, or at least .5 mg tablets we could cut up, us hairloss sufferers would have much better treatment options. And in my case I need it for my skin. My DHT type 1 must have been raging because a week after starting up my skin cleared up. It remained slightly oily like a male's should, but it didn't have the greasiness to it and it felt more supple. I can tell when I take higher doses as it is not necessarily drier, but just feels overall better and healthier.

I am looking to go into the medical field and either want to work at a pharma company like astra zeneca and do drug research on type 1 DHT or become an endocrinologist. I have been thinking about hairloss and hormones a lot, as I'm sure many of us do, and I can't help but notice that all these kids with super clear skin also have super thick hair. A lot can look very feminine looking as well, but that is probably because they run lower testosterone and higher progesterone which gives them their thick hair and clear skin. I think the perfect alpha male type that has a great head of hair is Leonardo DiCaprio. He keeps oily skin but super thick hair. I can almost guarantee he has very low type 1 DHT but runs higher testosterone, which gives him the thicker oily skin of a man while retaining his hairline.

 

[ronan_hawk]

Type 1 alpha 5 reductase does not play a role in hairloss as far as science in considered. Merck did test a type one 5ar inhibtor called mk386 and when it was conmbined with finasteride it brought dht levels down to the same level as dutasteride but it did nothing when it came to hairloss. Type 1 5 ar is is found in the sebaceous gland of the skin, not the dermal papilla where type 2 is found. the damage is done at the dermal papilla level where type 2 is found. To put an end to this discussion the pseudo hermaporidtes who lack type 2 5ar, have normal levels of type 1 5ar and normal testosterone levels never get acne, hairloss or enlarged prostates. http://articles.latimes.com/2006/oct/16/health/he-esoterica16

by the way logically we think that inhibiting type 1 5ar will improve, but merk tested mk 386 there specific type 1 inhibitor and it did NOTHING for acne . As I said the pseudohermaphrodites had normla levels of 5ar type 1 and still no acne.



I have seen alot of people with thick hair and have acne, and I have seen balding guys with clear beautiful skin.

 

[Quantum Cat]

I think Merck did look into marketing Dutasteride as a hair loss treatment but abandoned it. I can't foresee it coming on the market for that purpose any time soon for a couple of reasons:

Developing and marketing a drug is hugely expensive - they have to make sure they'll make big profits. Propecia sales were famously described as 'disappointing'.

Given all the controversy over Propecia and the largely unfounded claims of 'permanent' side effects, and the greedy and potentially costly lawsuits currently being drawn up, I would imagine a pharmaceutical company would sooner jump off a bridge than market another DHT blocker for male pattern baldness.

 

[IrishFella]

AFAIK, it was GlaxoSmithKline who ran studies regarding Dutasteride as a treatment for male pattern baldness, but with the extreme amount of type II enzyme it suppressed and the unnecessary suppression of the type I enzyme, they didn't bring it market.

Also, the study they ran was a success, but I guess the price of marketing the drug and finding the right dose was too much hassle. Especially with no long term studies in regards to type I suppression and it's effects on the body.

 

[Quantum Cat]

in theory of course, it shouldn't matter how much DHT is suppressed as it's apparently an unnecessary hormone in adults. But there's always that nagging feeling that it may have some importance... which is why I'm more wary of dutasteride than finasteride

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

DHT type 1 is found in the brain correct? If so that is something to be concerned of, but with me where my skin was about to be severely ****ed I had to get on dutasteride. And you guys can talk about how it isn't approved for hairloss and all that, but what i'm saying is we need a low dose dutasteride. So on that Bernstein study they clearly say that dutasteride inhibits type 2 DHT 3x stronger than finasteride and type 1 DHT 100x stronger!! I haven't taken any pharmacokinetics classes, but since they are the same drug (..ide suffix meaning the same I guess?) and they work by the same complex by binding to the NADPH molecule, I think the drug inhibition factor should be a 1 to 1 conversion. Meaning if someone takes .1 mg dutasteride it should be equal to .3 mg finasteride. Would you guys agree? But see the type 1 is the tough one to get. A .1 mg dose will lower your scalp DHT by 32% compared to Fins 40% and .5 mg dutasteride at about 50% and 2.5 mg dutasteride at about 70%. Obviously the best results are with 2.5 mg dutasteride but .1 mg dutasteride still beats out 5 mg finasteride and since the serum is kept higher there are less side effects.

Pretty much what I am saying is finasteride is trash and an inferior drug. Dutasteride is more a direct treatment and actually targets the hormone more involved in male pattern baldness. And this is becoming well known on the hairloss forums, but what I'm saying we need is a .1mg dose of dutasteride or .5 mg tablets to cut up and we would have better, more targeted treatment option.

 

[Quantum Cat]

but what I'm saying we need is a .1mg dose of dutasteride or .5 mg tablets to cut up and we would have better, more targeted treatment option.

we may need them but I seriously doubt we're going to get them any time soon, if ever, for the reasons I wrote above.

Unless:

some new research comes to light that Type I is definitely the main cause of male pattern baldness,

the research becomes widely accepted in the scientific/medical community,

a drug company is prepared to put the resources and money and risk into developing a new dutasteride pill,

and the FDA considers it safe enough to use for people without prostate conditions.


until then you're stuck with the pill cutter I'm afraid. What doses is dutasteride currently sold in?

 

[RapidRetreat]

Hey guys sorry to get off topic here but I am getting desperate, I was on finasteride for 12-13 months and all I saw was an INCREASE in shedding and oiliness my scalp and skin were out of control with oil and I had oily and acne prone skin already. I started taking 0.5mg a day dutasteride nearly 4 months ago and have since seen no improvements to my hair shedding or oily skin, I am starting to get more acne and even on my back now, my hair feels like straw and I need to wash the oil out almost every day! So I really do not understand what is going on in my situation as from what I have read dutasteride SHOULD have cleared my skin and slowed oil production as well as stopped my hairloss. Any insight on this would be GREATLY appreciated.

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

Quantum- dutasteride is sold only in .5 mg gel capsules under brand name avodart. I do not believe there is any generic. I purchased some .5 mg tablets from a company in India called Dugen. It is legit dutasteride but who knows about the impurities of the drug :/ I just wish one company would make a generic .5 mg tablet so we would know its pure and we could get it cheap and readily.

Retreat- Sounds like you may have crazy high testosterone. If you are serious about your hairloss and condition in general I would look at some antiandrogens. Don't take my word on this tho and go see a physician before you start an extreme program. Flutamide may help but is expensive, but spironolactone may do wonders as it is an acne medication, however you must be closely watched on dosage as it is used as a feminizing agent for transexuals and you could get some side effects that you really won't like if you dose incorrectly.

 

[Armando Jose]

I am with ladysmanfelpz about the opinion regarding Retreat. Visit an endocrino

 

[Quantum Cat]

To put an end to this discussion the pseudo hermaporidtes who lack type 2 5ar, have normal levels of type 1 5ar and normal testosterone levels never get acne, hairloss or enlarged prostates

I guess that settles it.

if dutasteride works better than finasteride it's because of its greater type II inhibition.

 

[RapidRetreat]

Hey I live in perth, western Australia and will try to book into an endocrinologist asap I saw my GP today and he gave me a referral to get everything imaginable tested in my blood related to hairloss he was actually helpful about it, I will go and get my blood taken tomorrow and try and book in for when I have my results, I have ordered topical spironolactone from this site and am awaiting for its arrival, will try that and see how it goes from what I have read on other sites people with similar issues to me had stopped propecia/dutasteride straight away and the shedding pretty much stopped straight away from what I can tell, I haven't taken anything for two days and am hoping that in a week I see something positive! although I assume I may need to ween myself but it shouldn't matter as I have done nothing but shed healthy hair and miniaturize at an accelerated speed since being on the drugs. My eyebrow hair seems to have stopped shedding as much although my scalp is still itchy as s***t.

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

Nice article Ronan. I also included in my research a section about 5AR deficiency and it serves as a great comparison for men with these hormonal issues. Still I did not see anything about type I or type II in the article tho. I didn't research 5AR deficiency that intensely, but if you are deficient in the enzyme, wouldn't that mean all types? I am not saying type II has nothing to do with male pattern baldness, but I do think type I plays a larger role. Well I can't even say that. I think it is individual specific, but all I can tell you is my skin was crazy greasy. It was like I hit puberty and never stopped. My mom was complaining to me to stop using whatever face wash I had because I was staining the pillows and sheets so badly, but I wasn't using anything. My skin was so dam greasy that it stained pillows and I was constantly washing my face. If you looked at me and saw my skin and oil production you would be like no way is that the proper environment for hair to grow. Even a low dose of dutasteride does wonders for me and I can tell when I take higher doses as it clears up my skin even more.

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

finasteride did nothing for my skin either. Why would it? It has nothing to combat it. In fact it may make it worse like in RapidRetreat's case, mine as well, as it increases testosterone. I got Dugen from 4rx from india. Its in tablet form so you can cut it up. I don't take finasteride anymore, but take 1/4 tab of dutasteride so roughly over .1 mg of dutasteride a day. dutasteride inhibits type 1 5AR very strongly where finasteride does nothing to it. This type of DHT is the one that targets skin and hair follicles. Skin cleared up in a week. Also had a pretty big shed after a week as well, but its all coming back now. I loaded with a lot of dutasteride at first tho, because I believe the drug acts in a slightly different manner and people say it is good to load to get a decent amount in the system when switching from finasteride to dutasteride. I took up to 2.5 mg a day with no sides, but crazy clear skin. The drug raised my testosterone to crazy amounts, even tho I did not have any more acne I could tell. I work out 2-3x a week and looked like I could be in a physique competition. I combated with low dose oral spironolactone as it inhibits some of the T. People are scared of it, but in controlled doses is fine and really helps out people like me, you, and Retreat as it is also an acne medication and helps rid of the oily skin. 2 months in on program of .1mg dutasteride a day, 50-100 mg of spironolactone a day, and 2 capsules of saw palmetto a day and no sides. Feel great and am ripped. Gonna try to get a prescription of spironolactone here soon so I can be full legit and not look like a druggy failing drug tests when all I am trying to do is combat hair loss

Oh and if I was you and had to get full dose dutasteride I would take at least two pills a week. Do like a monday thursday type thing. The half life is so long and it inhibits type I so strongly that it should help with the oiliness of your skin.

 

[talmoode]

Oh, ladysmanfelz..you make me so want to try dutasteride....

 

[Adam87]

I suffer from acne and always have done and I am 25, have to use acne cream and wash constantly day and night to keep it down, so I guess my testosterone levels or something must be high. Ladysmanfelpz - out of interest what does did you start with when on dutasteride, did you start high or low?

 

[ladysmanfelpz]

Then try it talmoode. Side effects increase from 2% on propecia to 4% on dutasteride. Big whoop and thats for mostly elderly men with prostate issues. If you tolerate finasteride now try a lil dutasteride. I started full dose adam. People say it needs a loading stage and I do think it acts differently. It has a way longer half life so maybe it is a slower acting drug and needs more in the system as molecules are slowly floating in your system looking for 5AR to bind to. So I did full does 0.5 mg for like a week and threw some days with 2.5 mg in there just to test; no side effects as serum is only slightly decreased compared to 0.5 mg but my skin felt great!

 

[Maximal]

From what I heard dutasteride will never be on finasteride positions in terms of safety just cause it has this much longer half life period, after being fully loaded. I think you got my idea right, Im not a native english speaker