Propecia??
- Thread starter Esco
- Start date
T
TravisB
Guest
Rawtashk, the more I'm reading your posts, the more I've got the feeling that you're Merck employee. You are praising Propecia in every post, and it seems that you never want to mention the sides. It's like the Propecia is the best of the best, wonderful, sweetest, most beloved miracle drug ever. While we all know that it's not and it's far far away from being safe and miracle drug.
TravisB said:
Have thought the exact same thing. Either that or an employee of the website which he keeps advertising. If he isn't then he's at best quite irresponsible with his comments.
"at first i thought it was some sugarpill, bla bla bla andhere is the link you can buy from"
Fact is, finasteride is a drug which has a feminising effect on men, potentially life changing and irreversible side effects and an unknown long term effect. Any decision to use it should NOT be taken lightly.
Really annoys me when you have certain people here constantly telling others to 'just get on finasteride and forget about it'.
Hey guys, way to be dicks.
Wikipedia itself says "48% of those treated with finasteride experienced visible regrowth of hair, and a further 42% had no further loss" Pretty much adds up to 90% of men. My numbers were a bit more round, sorry. Sue me.
Do some research on my posting history before you start bashing me. I have my own success thread out there, and I'm not some goddamn shill. Pardon me for trying to help guys that are in my shoes and want to fight off this balding "curse".
Yes, there are potential sides with finasteride. Your point being? There are potential sides with practically every drug known to mankind. Here, memorize this so you can rattle off the potential side effects of Tylenol the next time someone has a headache and reaches for the pain pills: "Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); dark urine; difficulty urinating or inability to urinate; fast or irregular heartbeat; hallucinations; mood or mental changes; pale stools; seizures; severe drowsiness; severe or persistent dizziness, nervousness, lightheadedness, or headache; severe or persistent trouble sleeping; stomach pain; tremor; vision changes; yellowing of skin or eyes."
Ya, those are the potential side effects of tylenol.
I'm sure there are people who have lasting sides from finasteride, but it's a very very very small minority. If you think it's a large part of the population, then you aren't using your brain to do much deductive reasoning, if at all.
Really? finasteride has a feminizing effect on men? Shoot peapoddy (a user here) a message and ask him if he feels like a woman, 'cause he certainly doesn't look like one
I could go on and on and on and on about this subject. You people make mountains out of molehills and freak the sh*t out of people who could potentially be benefiting GREATLY from finasteride. But...I'm not. I just finished up my day job as a Network Admin for a state legislature, and now I have to go home and workout and let my dogs outside before they pee in the house. (notice how there's nothing about Merk or 4rx in that statement? That's because I'm not a f*****g shill for them. Over 500 posts and you call me a fuckin shill. Really...)
Here's my story...although you probably won't bother to read it since you're more interested in scaremongering people and accusing me of lies.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65594
Wikipedia itself says "48% of those treated with finasteride experienced visible regrowth of hair, and a further 42% had no further loss" Pretty much adds up to 90% of men. My numbers were a bit more round, sorry. Sue me.
Do some research on my posting history before you start bashing me. I have my own success thread out there, and I'm not some goddamn shill. Pardon me for trying to help guys that are in my shoes and want to fight off this balding "curse".
Yes, there are potential sides with finasteride. Your point being? There are potential sides with practically every drug known to mankind. Here, memorize this so you can rattle off the potential side effects of Tylenol the next time someone has a headache and reaches for the pain pills: "Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); dark urine; difficulty urinating or inability to urinate; fast or irregular heartbeat; hallucinations; mood or mental changes; pale stools; seizures; severe drowsiness; severe or persistent dizziness, nervousness, lightheadedness, or headache; severe or persistent trouble sleeping; stomach pain; tremor; vision changes; yellowing of skin or eyes."
Ya, those are the potential side effects of tylenol.
I'm sure there are people who have lasting sides from finasteride, but it's a very very very small minority. If you think it's a large part of the population, then you aren't using your brain to do much deductive reasoning, if at all.
Really? finasteride has a feminizing effect on men? Shoot peapoddy (a user here) a message and ask him if he feels like a woman, 'cause he certainly doesn't look like one
I could go on and on and on and on about this subject. You people make mountains out of molehills and freak the sh*t out of people who could potentially be benefiting GREATLY from finasteride. But...I'm not. I just finished up my day job as a Network Admin for a state legislature, and now I have to go home and workout and let my dogs outside before they pee in the house. (notice how there's nothing about Merk or 4rx in that statement? That's because I'm not a f*****g shill for them. Over 500 posts and you call me a fuckin shill. Really...)
Here's my story...although you probably won't bother to read it since you're more interested in scaremongering people and accusing me of lies.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65594
Why would he be an employee of Merck if he advertises generic/off brand finasteride? That makes no sense.
He recommends 4rx.com because they do have the cheapest finasteride around for no prescription, cheaper than inhousepharmacy. Although he does copy/paste responses about his success with finasteride and where to get it, it is still helpful for the newer members.
I am on finasteride too and currently have no side effects. Side effects are real but the severe ones are pretty rare.
Lastly I don't think finasteride can completely halt hair loss, eventually the hair follicles will become more sensitive to DHT as you age and you will see gradual hair loss again. Some people up the dosage of finasteride or use stronger drugs like dutasteride to compensate. Also Minoxidil doesn't slow down hairloss, but rather acts as a growth stimulant, so minoxidil alone will lose efficacy pretty fast over time. However, Minoxidil and Finasteride/Dutasteride together is a potent combo which is likely to show decent maintenance and maybe some regrowth.
If you are too afraid of sides from these drugs, you can use topicals such as RU5884. However, it's more expensive and not completely effective as finasteride.
He recommends 4rx.com because they do have the cheapest finasteride around for no prescription, cheaper than inhousepharmacy. Although he does copy/paste responses about his success with finasteride and where to get it, it is still helpful for the newer members.
I am on finasteride too and currently have no side effects. Side effects are real but the severe ones are pretty rare.
Lastly I don't think finasteride can completely halt hair loss, eventually the hair follicles will become more sensitive to DHT as you age and you will see gradual hair loss again. Some people up the dosage of finasteride or use stronger drugs like dutasteride to compensate. Also Minoxidil doesn't slow down hairloss, but rather acts as a growth stimulant, so minoxidil alone will lose efficacy pretty fast over time. However, Minoxidil and Finasteride/Dutasteride together is a potent combo which is likely to show decent maintenance and maybe some regrowth.
If you are too afraid of sides from these drugs, you can use topicals such as RU5884. However, it's more expensive and not completely effective as finasteride.
That's funny; the individual that runs Propeciahelp.com accused me of being a Merck employee a few weeks ago as well. Apparently anybody that has had a good experience with Propecia, and chooses to share their stories and recommend the treatment, is a Merck shill. Because clearly, people ONLY have horrible, permanent, life-destroying experiences with it, right?
It's amazing to see how far everything has gone. That people accuse you of working for Merck because you had a good experience with it. Because you share the same positive experience with over 90% of people that take it. It's quite frankly ridiculous, and many of you people need to regain some perspective.
If hair loss is bothering you to a significant degree, enough that you want to treat it, the best advice I can muster is: just get on finasteride and forget about it. In fact, that is exactly what I did, and hair loss is pretty much the furthest thing from my mind now. No side effects, no 'feminizing effect'. In fact, I’ve lost over 20 pounds, and that’s including having put on a lot of muscle. It's been nothing but a positive experience for me, and I will personally continue to recommend it as a first-line treatment for hair loss, as I’m sure Rawtashk will continue to as well.
Yes, as clearly pointed out, why would a Merck shill recommend the generic alternative to brand name Propecia or Proscar? Same for myself, I’ve always recommended getting generic Proscar. I get it from costco at a cost of less than $150/year. Brand name propecia is ridiculously overpriced, and you would have to be an idiot to get it when generic alternatives are so readily available.
But yeah, to the OP, I strongly recommend trying it. Don't obsess, but be aware that it can rarely cause side effects. If it does, talk to your doctor and decide if you want to stick to it or not. As with taking any medication, there is a risk. Extremely rare cases have yielded persistent side effects of unknown cause after discontinuing the medication. Most medications can potentially cause very serious problems in rare cases. It's up to you to decide if you want to take the risk, albeit, very small. I personally believe the risk:benefit ratio is overwhelmingly in your favor. Some don't agree.
Good luck!
It's amazing to see how far everything has gone. That people accuse you of working for Merck because you had a good experience with it. Because you share the same positive experience with over 90% of people that take it. It's quite frankly ridiculous, and many of you people need to regain some perspective.
If hair loss is bothering you to a significant degree, enough that you want to treat it, the best advice I can muster is: just get on finasteride and forget about it. In fact, that is exactly what I did, and hair loss is pretty much the furthest thing from my mind now. No side effects, no 'feminizing effect'. In fact, I’ve lost over 20 pounds, and that’s including having put on a lot of muscle. It's been nothing but a positive experience for me, and I will personally continue to recommend it as a first-line treatment for hair loss, as I’m sure Rawtashk will continue to as well.
Yes, as clearly pointed out, why would a Merck shill recommend the generic alternative to brand name Propecia or Proscar? Same for myself, I’ve always recommended getting generic Proscar. I get it from costco at a cost of less than $150/year. Brand name propecia is ridiculously overpriced, and you would have to be an idiot to get it when generic alternatives are so readily available.
But yeah, to the OP, I strongly recommend trying it. Don't obsess, but be aware that it can rarely cause side effects. If it does, talk to your doctor and decide if you want to stick to it or not. As with taking any medication, there is a risk. Extremely rare cases have yielded persistent side effects of unknown cause after discontinuing the medication. Most medications can potentially cause very serious problems in rare cases. It's up to you to decide if you want to take the risk, albeit, very small. I personally believe the risk:benefit ratio is overwhelmingly in your favor. Some don't agree.
Good luck!
Rawtashk said:Hey guys, way to be dicks.
Wikipedia itself says "48% of those treated with finasteride experienced visible regrowth of hair, and a further 42% had no further loss" Pretty much adds up to 90% of men. My numbers were a bit more round, sorry. Sue me.
Do some research on my posting history before you start bashing me. I have my own success thread out there, and I'm not some G**d*** shill. Pardon me for trying to help guys that are in my shoes and want to fight off this balding "curse".
Yes, there are potential sides with finasteride. Your point being? There are potential sides with practically every drug known to mankind. Here, memorize this so you can rattle off the potential side effects of Tylenol the next time someone has a headache and reaches for the pain pills: "Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, or tongue); dark urine; difficulty urinating or inability to urinate; fast or irregular heartbeat; hallucinations; mood or mental changes; pale stools; seizures; severe drowsiness; severe or persistent dizziness, nervousness, lightheadedness, or headache; severe or persistent trouble sleeping; stomach pain; tremor; vision changes; yellowing of skin or eyes."
Ya, those are the potential side effects of tylenol.
I'm sure there are people who have lasting sides from finasteride, but it's a very very very small minority. If you think it's a large part of the population, then you aren't using your brain to do much deductive reasoning, if at all.
Really? finasteride has a feminizing effect on men? Shoot peapoddy (a user here) a message and ask him if he feels like a woman, 'cause he certainly doesn't look like one
I could go on and on and on and on about this subject. You people make mountains out of molehills and freak the sh*t out of people who could potentially be benefiting GREATLY from finasteride. But...I'm not. I just finished up my day job as a Network Admin for a state legislature, and now I have to go home and workout and let my dogs outside before they pee in the house. (notice how there's nothing about Merk or 4rx in that statement? That's because I'm not a f****ing shill for them. Over 500 posts and you call me a fuckin shill. Really...)
Here's my story...although you probably won't bother to read it since you're more interested in scaremongering people and accusing me of lies.
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=65594
I don't think anyone is out of order for being suspicious on a board like this. Everything SHOULD be suspicious when it comes to hair loss because basically it is a natural condition (not an illness) which causes insecurity and where there is insecurity there is a market. 'Treating hair loss' is a serious thing because it's not a physical problem.
With that said...
We only stated what we have both thought. Many times I've seen someone saying 'get on finasteride' and forget about it and pretty much without fail I've looked at the username and it's been you. Now, what I said was - if you're not marketing the drug for this site or whatever then the way that you give your advice is irresponsible.
Fact is, going on such a drug should NEVER be taken lightly - it is potentially a life changing decision. There are guys everywhere (on this board and other parts of the net) who truly believe that their lives have been seriously impaired/even ruined by taking finasteride. The manufacturers have now been forced to state that some of these effects can be irreversible.
- 2% is not a low number given the serious nature of side effects which do occur.
- Nobody knows the long term effects of the drug. As mentioned, permanent damage can be done but also, who knows what blocking such a powerful and natural hormone for your whole life will do? - it's just been released for example that finasteride use can increase the risk of developing the most dangerous form of prostate cancer. Other consultants have warned it can damage to fertility, make changes in the brain causing anxiety/depression etc.
- Once someone is on it then there is a dependancy even if they do get sides (willl my hair all fall out if i stop/i'll get this catch up loss)
- finasteride users don't even appear to have their anxiety eased over hair loss (which is probably the worst part of losing your hair anyway).
- Yes, of course finasteride has a feminising effect. That is beyond question.
Blocking the most powerful androgen in the body is feminising! The fact that estrogen will typically be raised when taking the drug is a feminising effect. The fact that your body hair will not grow as fast is a feminising effect. It's really that basic. It's a male hormone and blocking it is not a natural thing to do. DHT is not just a waste product - it's a hormone which has a real effect on the body, sexual and otherwise. Most bodybuilders won't touch finasteride and try to just use topicals instead if worried about their hair (go on a BB forum and see for yourself) but even so, posting a picture of one muscular guy is really stupid as you obviously know. My girlfriend can deadlift more than some guys in my gym - it doesn't mean sh*t - she still has barely any male hormones running through her blood.
- Comparing the side effects of drugs like a pain killer to those of a hormone blocking drug is just beyond stupid. Yes, every drug has a side effect. Yes, everyone reacts differently to things but you show me a similar amount of people who say their sex lives have been ruined forever by taking the odd paracetamol or the like. Again - blocking your hormones is a SERIOUS business. There is a reason why most doctors would ask someone just to accept their hair loss before taking that risk (which I know for myself is a f'n hard thing to do).
Nobody should be told 'get on finasteride and forget about it' without also being warned in the same sentence that there is a risk. Nobody should belittle those risks as you do in practically every other post you make - 'more chance of being hit by a car etc'. 2% is high and there is a psychologicsal dependency on the drug....in my opinion from everything I've seen, the jury is out on how quickly it usually takes people to get rid of these nasty effects if at all. You can argue all day that people online are the ones who have had problems and those without are happy and have forgotten about it, but from more independent cases which I've read, there is almost always some negative effect of the drug. If there are so many people making it their life goal to warn of the dangers then logic says there IS something to be concerned with before making the decision to take it.
Trust me, I wish all of this wasn't the case - but sadly, it is.
T
TravisB
Guest
That's a wise post. I personally think that we should try to cope with our balding , rather than make premature decisions about taking Finasteride. Who knows if in a few years we won't discover some very powerful and safe drug that reverses baldness even from advanced degree. When taking Finasteride, you can feel well for some time. But there is no doubt - if you plan to continue finasteride for many many years, you have VERY high chances of having serious consequences. Sorry, if you take this drug, and your balls begin to hurt, and you continue to take this drug, and also tell others that ball pain is nothing, then you are just plain stupid. The fuckin ball ache is not something natural and is certainly not a good sign of anything, and you should not ignore it. Let's say you save your hair with Propecia to when you're 30 - 40 years old. But then what? You will live the rest of your life damaged? Messing with your hormones is not an amusement. I've read many opinions about Finasteride from users who have taken it for a long time.
Here are some of them:
http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=20788&name=PROPECIA&sort=timelength&page=1&PerPage=60
they are listed from longest taking duration descending
Here are some of them:
http://www.askapatient.com/viewrating.asp?drug=20788&name=PROPECIA&sort=timelength&page=1&PerPage=60
they are listed from longest taking duration descending
TravisB said:
What worries me is that a lot of people get those nasty effects out of the blue after many years. Sometimes it goes away and sometimes it doesn't. But from independent cases which I've read about (i.e. guys saying I'm going to take this drug as a test and keep a diary of how I feel) there are generally always some effects other than better hair. Even if those effects are small (sore testicles, thinner semen, slightly less energy etc). Actually there's no way that I believe only 2% of people get any of these things.
TravisB said:
Everyone on this forum has a problem with their balding. It’s a difficult thing to cope with, as everybody here understands. In fact, if we were all able to cope with and accept our balding, we wouldn't even be members on this forum. People here want to learn about effective treatments and discuss their options in how they can treat their hair loss.
TravisB said:
Where are you getting this from? Almost every long-term study of finasteride concludes that side effects lessen over time, not increase. Also, many people claim to have serious problems after being on the drug for a very short period of time. If anything, it seems that only people predisposed to serious problems are the ones that end up with them. I've never seen anything that shows a greater risk related to length of use (but plenty of conjecture). However, I would be willing to consider any argument that supports this case, as there are a lot of studies on Finasteride out there.
TravisB said:
I experienced this after a couple weeks of taking it, for about 3 days straight. It's certainly not something I enjoyed, but I was aware it could happen. It went away, never to return in 8 months. This seems to be the case for the majority of people that experience it.
TravisB said:
This has been discussed many, many times on this forum before. The internet is generally extremely biased and negative. People's negative experiences reported online cannot be extrapolated to encompass the general population, as it inaccurately reflects experiences in the real world. People are much, much more likely to report their negative experience as opposed to their neutral or positive experience. Also, websites like this don't ever consider the person's medical history (maybe something else is going on that the person doesn't even know about), psychosomatic symptoms, or even the fact that people are posting multiple false reports. None of these things can be known for certain. Of course, not to say none are legitimate, but I take websites like these with a grain of salt.
Again, I never said that propecia didn't have side effects, or that no one ever got them, or that (in EXTREMELY RARE cases) the sides persisted for some time.
Do me a favor for 2 minutes here. Put all of your presuppositions about propecia out of your mind and just think out this scenario.
Person "A" has something he deems wrong with himself, something that requires drugs. Person "A" gets medication for it (be it from a Doctor, or online). The medication does a good job controlling whatever it is that's wrong with person "A". Would person "A" just go about his life normally and be happy? Most likely, yes.
Person "B" has something he deems wrong with himself, something that requires drugs. Person "B" gets medication for it (be it from a Doctor, or online). The medication doesn't do so well, and person "B" gets sides. Would person "B" most likely do whatever he could to find out why and try to fix it? Most likely, yes.
THAT is why there is so much scaremongering and uncertainty about Propecia. The 2-5% of people with problems make up 70% of people on the forums. Hell, I had excellent results and it took me almost 3 YEARS to make a post about it. But you bet you *** that I'd have been on forums trying to find an answer within a week of getting side effects.
As for the people in that link that was posted....they are some misinformed and not logical individuals.
"my former girlfriend has been ill with some mysterious sickness and I'm concerned it's from Propecia"
Body scan showed spot on liver and my liver counts (AST, ALT, GGT) are elevated. I'm going to see the doctor for further evaluation. I think it's the propecia
Just to name a few. Also, my previous example applies. People are more likely to complain that something didn't work than they are to applaud something that did its job.
How about a real-world example? I do tech support for my day job. I could go help 10 people, do my job right, and they wouldn't say anything to my boss. However, if I'm a dick to the 11th person...I guarantee you that my boss would hear about it.
Do me a favor for 2 minutes here. Put all of your presuppositions about propecia out of your mind and just think out this scenario.
Person "A" has something he deems wrong with himself, something that requires drugs. Person "A" gets medication for it (be it from a Doctor, or online). The medication does a good job controlling whatever it is that's wrong with person "A". Would person "A" just go about his life normally and be happy? Most likely, yes.
Person "B" has something he deems wrong with himself, something that requires drugs. Person "B" gets medication for it (be it from a Doctor, or online). The medication doesn't do so well, and person "B" gets sides. Would person "B" most likely do whatever he could to find out why and try to fix it? Most likely, yes.
THAT is why there is so much scaremongering and uncertainty about Propecia. The 2-5% of people with problems make up 70% of people on the forums. Hell, I had excellent results and it took me almost 3 YEARS to make a post about it. But you bet you *** that I'd have been on forums trying to find an answer within a week of getting side effects.
As for the people in that link that was posted....they are some misinformed and not logical individuals.
"my former girlfriend has been ill with some mysterious sickness and I'm concerned it's from Propecia"
Body scan showed spot on liver and my liver counts (AST, ALT, GGT) are elevated. I'm going to see the doctor for further evaluation. I think it's the propecia
Just to name a few. Also, my previous example applies. People are more likely to complain that something didn't work than they are to applaud something that did its job.
How about a real-world example? I do tech support for my day job. I could go help 10 people, do my job right, and they wouldn't say anything to my boss. However, if I'm a dick to the 11th person...I guarantee you that my boss would hear about it.
Well we know propecia is a drug so its not 100 percent safe its an option to do something about hair loss if it bothers you when without it your basically going bald. That being said a lot of side effects people chalk up to propecia such as sexual problems or brain fog could easily be from aging and its impossible to ever know. There are possible side effects and we all know about them but they are rare while stopping or regrowing hair is statistically likely.
On the topic of long term side effects there is a biological model, proscar to treat prostate problems was out before propecia, and propecia has been out for 15-20 years now so its time tested. If you start now there are millions of men that have been on it for 20 years longer then you to spot anything before you could ever get it along with the biological model it was based on to begin with. There are 2 sides to every coin not everything is as 1 dimensional as propecia is evil and will kill you kind of a thing but its not all roses we know that.
On the topic of long term side effects there is a biological model, proscar to treat prostate problems was out before propecia, and propecia has been out for 15-20 years now so its time tested. If you start now there are millions of men that have been on it for 20 years longer then you to spot anything before you could ever get it along with the biological model it was based on to begin with. There are 2 sides to every coin not everything is as 1 dimensional as propecia is evil and will kill you kind of a thing but its not all roses we know that.