Proscar(0.625mg) Wk 1 - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

[1750]

Re: Terrified of Finasteride Proscar (1.25mg) Side Effects . . .

Hi 1750 -

Thanks for your post.

I have a couple of questions for you:

1. If you don't mind me asking - how old were you when you started taking the drug?

2. When did the breast tissue start to develop? Has it gone back completely now or no?

3. How long were you on finasteride? What dosage?

Everyone else - as the standard dosage is 1mg / day and I am starting 1.25mg per day as it is 1/4 of the 5mg Proscar Tablet - should I try Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday - every other day - I have read this can be effective and minimize side effects.

Further information:- I am in good health - I had bloodwork done a year ago.
- I have a requisition from my family Doctor to get another blood test which I think I will do.

Really appreciate the support and further help . . .

amff

sure - 1 - was 26/27 when I started finasteride
2. i had mild pains and swelling of the nipples after 2 months or so... at the end of month 3 I introduced DIM to try and act as an AI (aromatose inhibitor). It didn't work. for the later months I tried other AI's like armidex and aromasin... they too did not work in conjunction with finasteride as an effective AI...
they did however work well when I was off the drug.
the breast tissue remains to this day.
3. was on it for 4-8 months with varying doses... started with proscar and cutting the tab into 4 parts.. so 1.25mg per day.
I took it at 1.25mg per day for a 2-3 month period.
Thereafter due to sides I cut the dosage back considerably... .33mg or under .25mg every second / third day... side effects continued so stopped use altogether eventually (even tried once or twice to go back on!! eek! :whistle: )

there have been studies that show that even 7 days after taking .25mg of finasteride that it is still inhibiting a fair bit of DHT.
regarding doses... as the drug is somewhat cumulative.. taking 1.25 every second or even third day will eventually build to the same dht inhibition as daily intake. (am sure someone can post a link to this... it has been spoken about regulalrly)

 

[Wuffer]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

Monty,

I can appreciate your observations, but I feel I have to try to put this into perspective a bit. You are basing your sample of Finasteride users from this message board, and possibly from a few others. I have also seen the same; looking back in the message histories of many users that ended up with problems from finasteride, I see the same trend. I've seen this very thing happen to dozens of users.

We need to keep in mind that the sample of users from this forum represents much less than 1% of the general finasteride-using population. Also, we also need to remember that there is an extremely high tendancy for people here to come here and report negative experiences with finasteride. You simply don't hear from all the people that have good experiences. As it's said before, they are all out enjoying life and their hair, or could care less to take part in these types of conversations.

It's easy when you spend enough time here to forget that fact. It's been estimated that there have been over 4,000,000 prescriptions for propecia since it was first released. Keep in mind this doesn't even count Proscar or the entire generic market. I would say there have been closer to 10,000,000 individuals worldwide that took some form of Finasteride in their lifetime.

The responses to this thread are a perfect example. Almost all of the responses have been negative. This leaves amff to believe the general concensus is that this drug is dangerous. However, the sample of the 10 or so individuals responding to this thread is completely useless in the grand scheme of things. A hundred or a thousand people could respond with their negative stories and it wouldn't be useful.

The only way he or anyone else can effectively quantify risk is by looking at the Finasteride trials. I know this doesn't change your situation; you had an extremely uncommon negative reaction to taking finasteride.

Finfighter posted a bunch of articles. I can refute some of these (especially the rat one) but others may hold some water. However, this isn't useful to the average individual looking to start finasteride. The only thing we can all turn to for conclusive data are long-term trials involving thousands of patients. Even this isn't entirely conclusive, but it's the best thing we have right now.

 

[mothernature]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

i enjoyed reading this thread so far, wuffers posts in particular aand the guy who posted those scientific articles really scared me.

I'm almost 3 months on finasteride and have no real side effects so far.. maybe watery semen but who knows if it was finasteride that caused it cause sometimes before finasteride i used to get it.. anyway i have no doubt that despite the studies saying only 2% experience sexual sides the number is probably higher.. still for me my hair outweighs my pen** for now lol.

 

[Wuffer]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

Sorry. Studies!

I have no problem with the studies. They are all entirely accurate and insightful. However, pulling snippets out of context and extrapolating the results to support your claims is where the trouble lies. The rat study is a perfect example of that.

 

[Wuffer]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

Please stop posting those ugly studies with massive font! Especially this one and the one by Dr. Irwig. I've argued against both of them a long time ago in one of our threads in the 'side effects' section, and I’m frankly done discussing both of them.

However, I never did comment on the rat one...

There are a number of problems with it.

1. These rats were given over 300 times the dose of finasteride that a human takes in propecia. You can argue flat dose response all you want, but if you take 300mg's of finasteride every day for several weeks, you are going to have some major problems. We all knew what happened when we pumped rats full of artificial sweeteners, hundreds of times the recommended daily dose for humans.

2. Rat penises. I'm no biologist, but I know rat and similarly canine penises work completely differently than humans. I don't care to lay out the details when google is so handy for you to search, but it simply cannot be used as a model for a human. Yes, this study very conclusively proves that DHT is important for the rat penis.

3. Rats are not humans. They are not perfect test analogs for human studies.

4. The article itself concludes: "In rats, androgen is essential for maintaining the normal structure of penile tunica albuginea and corpus cavernosum."

You conclude: "In humans, finasteride causes permanent damage to the human penis".


You see what I mean? The study itself says nothing about humans. However, you make up your own conclusion and say it’s applicable to humans. I don’t know nearly as much as you do about science, but this is so glaringly obvious to even a layperson such as myself.

 

[Wuffer]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

And Aspartame is a carcinogen buddy!

finfighter, this summed up my point quite nicely. Thanks!

 

[Mens Rea]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

However, pulling snippets out of context and extrapolating the results to support your claims is where the trouble lies. The rat study is a perfect example of that.

I don't think that is fair.

Most of the studies are pretty informative and their message is clear. I'm not talking about studies in rats, of course. Even the studies with rats are very interesting but not directly indicative of a drug for humans (mainly because of the dosage / weight issues.....because apart from that we are disturbingly similar in many ways!!)

 

[Wuffer]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

lol.. finasteride, that reply actually made me laugh my *** off! Nice


I actually agree with your response though, man. It's clear that this article indicates that there is a possibility for harm from Finasteride. But the article in itself can't be used as any sort of proof. These types of animal tests are great, because it's cause for other scientists to perform more tests on animals, and then eventually on humans to determine if there is a legitimate concern here. I admit, this study could be entirely true for humans taking the 1mg dose. But right now, we don't know that.

My big problem is when a new user is considering finasteride. Their hair loss may have been causing them significant distress, and they were very hopeful to find such an effective treatment.

They come here, looking for some advice, and post messages looking for some feedback. They are swarmed by many of the same individuals, painting a very negative picture. These studies are posted, and most of the users scream and run away. That might achieve what some of you are looking to achieve, but what about that guy? Chances are he will do very well on finasteride and get good results. Why begrudge him of that chance by convincing him otherwise? At the very least, the guy will be scared and feeling very negative when starting on finasteride. This makes it even that much more likely that he will have a bad experience.

Why can't the responses be more level headed? "finasteride is effective, and safe for the majority of people. I personally did not have a good experience with it, and this is why. However, based on what we know, my experience was not the norm, and chances are you will tolerate it well. These are the risks, but you need to weigh these out with the benefits before you make your decision".

Instead we get responses like "finasteride fucked me up" and page-long stories about how it ruined your lives. I know you are a crusader here to promote the truth, and present accurate information to users considering treatments. You usually do a good job at this, but just as often you don't.

I'm not without fault here either; I admit I go overboard when I get involved in these responses. However, I think we can all do better job providing these users with more useful advice.

 

[amff]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

Wuffer - Thanks for your support.

Finfighter - - thanks for your immature reply to my PM with emoticons giving me the middle finger. It is evident that you are a very self-consious, suffer from low-self esteem and are pathetic.

The point you are missing is that you could have ended your point in your first post saying you had a bad experience and you do not support it. The mulitple notes discount your point of view and make you seem pathetic so do us all a favour and f*** off and stop - thank-you.

amff

 

[amff]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

finasteride-Fighter - please refrain from your notes - let's keep it positive.

 

[amff]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

finasteride-fighter - listen - I don't want to fight, but I just don't want 100 posts of your negative impression. I feel bad for you if you have had a bad experience, and I sincerely hope I don't have bad experiences either. Ironically it appears that the majority of people on here who had a bad experience were young, and from the UK region - which begs Wuffer and my question of where the finasteride was from, what the surroundings were, and maybe the effect on age. I am approaching 29, from Canada, and using the real deal - Merck Proscar at 0.625mg per day as my goal is to fill in some of the slightly thinning areas aka my crown which is supplemented by Minoxidil 5% that I also take.

Bottom-line - I respect your opinion, but think I became defensive because of the multiple multiple negative posts. I get it - you had a bad experience - let's leave it at that. I am not a fan of making enemies, and agree my responses could be immature, but I had PM'ed you to request to stop the notes. Sorry if it was passive agressive, then I asked again and got upset.

Can we call a truce on this one.

amff

 

[amff]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

finasteride-fighter - thank-you. I guess with your side of the coin you could argue my passive agressive note, and blunt statements in response could be the "Evil finasteride". But seriously, I think I would have taken your point and read it more if you had sent me the information privately or if it was more concise top points, it just seemed overwhelming.

Just out of curiosity - where are you located, how old are you?

I am really wondering if there is a difference with age / region. For instance - in Canada it is pretty strict to get the drugs - there are a lot of restrictions ordering on-line, etc . . The supply from Merck is 100% Canadian and the Canadian Health and Drug Admin is very very strict.

As for stress - it's funny - I am starting a new role at work, in the middle of my Part-Time MBA, recently moved, and recently married so sometimes wonder if the shedding / thinning is a result of that. Either or - have been on the Drug 3 days now and feel relatively the same way. I started to get paranoid of chest pains thinking oh no . . . but then remembered I did some heavy lifting a few nights ago. I woke up this morning and worried . . . where is my buddy in the morning - then thought you know what if I am worried about it of course it won't work then leaned over to my wife and realized everything is still working fine. Semen is a bit watery, but could be because I have been so afraid of the results that I have been "testing" the biology a little more than most, but overall drive is actually spiked a bit and so far feel ok - FINGERS CROSSED at the 0.625mg/day with 320mg of Saw Palmetto and 5% Minoxidil, Nizoral, and Nixoin we will cover up some of the thinning areas - the moment something goes funky I will report on here for "peer advice" as well as to my Doctor.

Thanks mate!

amff

 

[amff]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

Ha - I should have known by the gun in your picture - LOL. Kidding - Canadians love Americans - especially right now because the dollar is at an alltime high.

All jokes aside - the FDA is a little more relaxed on specifications of drugs that are generic versions of "branded" equivalents whereas in Canada if Proscar or Propecia (finasteride) are made into generics - it is very strict testing and claims.

The other interesting part as I went through my parents Physican's Drug Guides are that the placebo effects are pretty much the same as actual side effects which is interesting as it shows that emotional / psychosymatic effects are just as real as the biological.

Especially when dealing with sensitive things like sex, moods, and sensitivites - we can create our world in our mind and manifest it as strongly as sometimes a chemical can do - same thing with antidepressants, anti-anxieties, etc . . .

I am wondering though if early to mid-20's as well as region has something to do with results. Many of the guys on here are from the UK and many are not using actual "Merck" finasteride.

Anywho - not trying to convince, but rather post a differing view point.

As mentioned, the moment anything feels wierd or is consistent I will advise.

amff!

 

[Mens Rea]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

finasteride-fighter - thank-you. I guess with your side of the coin you could argue my passive agressive note, and blunt statements in response could be the "Evil finasteride". But seriously, I think I would have taken your point and read it more if you had sent me the information privately or if it was more concise top points, it just seemed overwhelming.

Just out of curiosity - where are you located, how old are you?

I am really wondering if there is a difference with age / region. For instance - in Canada it is pretty strict to get the drugs - there are a lot of restrictions ordering on-line, etc . . The supply from Merck is 100% Canadian and the Canadian Health and Drug Admin is very very strict.

As for stress - it's funny - I am starting a new role at work, in the middle of my Part-Time MBA, recently moved, and recently married so sometimes wonder if the shedding / thinning is a result of that. Either or - have been on the Drug 3 days now and feel relatively the same way. I started to get paranoid of chest pains thinking oh no . . . but then remembered I did some heavy lifting a few nights ago. I woke up this morning and worried . . . where is my buddy in the morning - then thought you know what if I am worried about it of course it won't work then leaned over to my wife and realized everything is still working fine. Semen is a bit watery, but could be because I have been so afraid of the results that I have been "testing" the biology a little more than most, but overall drive is actually spiked a bit and so far feel ok - FINGERS CROSSED at the 0.625mg/day with 320mg of Saw Palmetto and 5% Minoxidil, Nizoral, and Nixoin we will cover up some of the thinning areas - the moment something goes funky I will report on here for "peer advice" as well as to my Doctor.

Thanks mate!

amff

Let us know how you're feeling in a few months mate

Just for the record Saw Palmetto is a DHT inhibitor, too.

 

[slurms mackenzie]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

Ironically it appears that the majority of people on here who had a bad experience were young, and from the UK region - which begs Wuffer and my question of where the finasteride was from, what the surroundings were,

amff

What is it with you Canadians and the definition of Irony, did the Alanis Morrisette episode teach us nothing?

ha ha joking aside, could you please explain why you think age would have anything to do with the bad experiences and how you've measured the geographical spread of problem.

Have you visited the website propecia help and taken stats from there?

Reading this thread it sounds like you've already made your mind up about whether or not to take it, and you're looking for some reassuring stories that your hair loss fight will be a successful one.

I started finasteride in 2001, it regrew a little at the crown and maintained it for 8 years.

Then i stopped finasteride.

 

[amff]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

Sir Chugs - thanks for your note. Now that Alanis lives in the US we don't consider her Canadian.

Wuffer and I were just noticing a trend that on this site and others a lot of the bad experiences from finasteride are from generic finasteride usage, early 20's which is a key point in time the male sex drive moves from a peak to regression, and the fact a lot of the users were from UK which has some of the highest depression rates in the world - could be the rain / overcast all the time. Merely pointing out trends which lead to hypothesis but not researched and published.

So were you on finasteride the entire time?
Did you have side effects?
When you stopped did you keep some of your hair gain?
What has been your regime post stopping and why did you stop?

Thanks mate!

amff

 

[slurms mackenzie]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

I'll repost what i posted in the other raging debate on finasteride.

I wouldn't look too much into the incidence of events being based around young uk finpecia users, although i am there, the winter can bring about a bit of a miserable mood, but there doesn't seem to be a higher incidence of depression than in the US.

If stats were available on the spread of side effects then they could make very interesting reading.

finasteride eventually caught up with me, due to the sides, this was after nine years.

Whether or not this was due to a gradual effect of a lack of dht (ie like some reverse puberty) or whether or not my testosterone levels dropped with age to such an extent that the sides became noticeable i don't know.

Would i personally do it all the same way again? Hell yeah, when i was 26 first taking it i was like a dog with two dicks, it probably took me down to behaving like a dog with 1.5 dicks, if anything it made life easier, plenty of wood, and a couple of good relationships in the first five years of taking it.

I'd point out too anybody considering taking it

i) that most people don't get the common sides reported and it's a very effective drug.

ii) You will hear more on the forums from the people who have had sides because they're checking back in to find something else that will do the job and we *all* have to be very careful about confirmation bias.

iii) There can be very real long lasting damage done by this drug, it's not likely to happen to you, if i were to do it all again with hindsight i'd take a month off every two years to evaluate how my hormones were holding up.

 

[Wuffer]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

lol, I love how these threads can turn from one moment people telling eachother to f*** off, then the next wishing eachother the best of luck and being friends again! The internet brings out the best and worse in people. I would love if we could all get together over a few beers and discuss things in person. I have a feeling it would be a bit more productive!

btw amff, i'm from Canada as well, out west. However, i'm planning a trip east with the girlfriend this summer! Perhaps we can meet up for those beers after all.

Back to business: amff made an interesting point about the incidence of these problems in the uk. Honestly, i've only heard of one guy having problems in Canada; the one guy that pushed the first lawsuit over in Vancouver. Though his gripe was that his doctor prescribed 5mg Proscar, and didn't tell him to split it up into quarters.. So he's suing based on the fact that he had worse side effects because of the higher dose.

Who knows, it would be interesting to work through the numbers to see if anything else plays a factor, but all we can do is speculate...

 

[amff]

Re: 2 Days Into Proscar (1.25mg) - Seeking Your (+/-) Experience

sir chugalot - great post - glad to hear it worked for 9 years and also great point in taking time off for the hormones every few years. I know I am going to be monitoring things like a hawk - if I get any remote change in expected sides I will check with my doctor immediately - again my dosage is small 0.625mg / day (Proscar 5mg divided into 8ths) - I am also taking Saw Palmetto which is why I reduced from the 1.25mg. I had bloodwork done and will be having bloodwork done every 6 months to ensure all is in check.

Wuffer - send me your details - my wife and I would be happy to host you and your GF when you make your way out East. Also - I will send you the photos of today (baseline) to your e-mail.

finasteride-fighter - sorry I took your notes out of context again mate - glad we could agree to disagree and also appreciate your intentions of showing the balanced side of the coin.

Thanks guys!

amff

 

[ryder]

i am taking 1.25mg every monday, wednesday, friday..

been doing this for 2 months with zero side effects..

should i be upping the dosage? or taking a smaller amount but taking it every day?

thanks guys