Proscar or dutasteride??

[powersam]

stax i'm not even going to bother reading that. hopefully aplunk or someone else will answer that post but i just cannot be bothered dealing with you and your baseless claims

RTJBJ - if not on fda data or other peoples experiences and opinions then exactly what other information could you possibly base your decision on?

 

[Felk]

I recommend reading the article "How Safe Are Your Pills?" in a recent issue of the Medical Observer (australian doctor's magazine) it deals with worries such as these. I dont know if you'll find it on the net but ill have a look (i have the actual mag because my mum's a doctor...)

Anyway, they dealt with the issue of Vioxx. They recommend being "realistic" about your pills - they aren't magical things with no side effects, every drug has side effects. However they also made a note of how life expectancy has risen by more than 50% in the last hundred years or so, due in a large part to prescription drugs.

When things pass FDA Trials, they are not somehow "cleared" and risk free. However afterwards strict monitoring takes place, by various organisations, of the reports of various effects of the drugs. Australia especially has one of the best of these organisations, apparently

They mapped out some guidelines to follow when dealing with drugs and there were too many for me to remember, but one stuck with me:

"When deciding between two drugs of similar effectiveness, always opt for the one which has been around longer." Because their long term side effects are better known.

So i'd say always finasteride before dutasteride. However dutasteride isn't somehow out in the open and free to harm everyone, due to a Merck cover up or anything :freaked:

On the contrary, it is most likely being closely monitored. Let us only hope the hairloss sufferers using dutasteride are speaking openly with their doctor, so all necessary reports are coming through

 

[Aplunk1]

Thanks Felk.

Stax, I also refuse to read your writing. It's in all capitals, and is suggestive of an insolent tone.

Tone it down a little, then we'll talk.

As far as the side effects go, you don't believe GSK's figures from the FDA P. III Trials?

Do you understand that most users who use this forum, are the very few who indeed incur side effects from finasteride therapy?

It makes complete sense.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is your logic.

Do you have any understanding of what the 5AR-Enzyme Type 1 actually does and what its inhibition implies?

There is a difference between suggesting that a drug is safe and promoting the usage of a drug.

Remember, this forum is for intelligent discussion, not name-calling and fear-mongering.

 

[powersam]

i hope people don't think we are too hard on this type of post, but misleading people about their best chance of recovery or maintenance really pisses me off. posts like that are the kind of shite that turn people with little hairloss knowledge away from the proven treatments toward the snake oil salesmen who wait with open arms. does anyone on this forum really want to win sales for those useless products which i will not name here as one post of mine was deleted for naming a libellious(spelling? actual word?) product. dont want to get hair transplant in trouble.

 

[stax]

Edit

 

[Aplunk1]

GO AHEAD AND TAKE dutasteride AND SEE WHAT MAY HAPPEN 10 YEARS FROM NOW. THATS MY AGENDA HERE. I DONT KNOW HOW MANY POSTS IVE READ HERE ABOUT GUYS ON finasteride OR dutasteride GETTING SEXUAL SIDES!!!! MUCH MORE THAN 3%. ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID MAN? I DONT WANT TO NAME CALL BUT f*** YOU MUST BE BLIND.


WERE THE PEOPLE KILLED BY VIOXX HEARSAY TOO??????? I AM BEYOND HELP? HAHA! I REALLY DONT CARE, YOU CAN DEFEND THESE MAGICAL DRUGS THAT PRODUCE NO SIDE EFFECTS (COUGH) ALL YOU WANT BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO KEEP THEIR EYES OPEN UNLIKE YOU. IM NOT THE ONE TAKING dutasteride, BUT MY AGENDA IS DONT TELL PEOPLE ITS SAFE BECAUSE ITS NOT. LISTEN TO DR.LEE ON THIS ONE. HE KNOWS A LOT MORE THAN YOU "POWERSAM". MY AGENDA IS TO SAY THAT SIDE EFFECTS ARE NOT RARE ON THESE DRUGS EITHER. LIKE I SAID EVEN DOCTORS SAY THAT MERCK IS NOT ACCURATE ABOUT THERE SIDE EFFECTS PERCENTAGE LISTINGS AND ITS MUCH HIGHER. I THINK THEY WOULD KNOW SINCE THE SEE PATIENTS EVERYDAY.


BOTTOM LINE, WHAT THE FDA SAYS CANT FULLY BE TRUSTED SINCE VIOXX WAS PROVEN TO BE SAFE, SORRY I MEANT PROVEN TO KILL PEOPLE, YEAH. SO THATS MY LEG TO STAND ON AND YOU CANT OVER RULE THAT FACT. JUST LIKE dutasteride ISNT PROVEN TO BE SAFE FOR HAIRLOSS, AND HASNT BEEN PROVEN TO BE SAFE FOR THE LONGTERM. LONGTERM IS NOT 4 YEARS. LONGTERM IS MORE LIKE 10-20 YEARS. AND THEY TESTED LIKE 60 YEAR OLDS NOT HEALTHY YOUNG MEN.



I DONT THINK finasteride REALLY POSES A BIG THREAT, BUT I DONT KNOW WHAT CAN HAPPEN LONGTERM TO CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS. A LOT MORE PEOPLE ON finasteride EXPERIENCE SEXUAL SIDES, GYNO, ECT, THAN WHAT MERCK LISTS, BOTTOM LINE. dutasteride IS A DIFFERENT STORY AND IS NOT SAFE. ON GLAXO"S WEBSITE THEY EVEN STATE NOT TO USE dutasteride FOR ANYTHING ELSE THAN, BPH, SO THATS ALL I NEED TO HEAR. IT HASNT BEEN STUDIED FOR THAT LONG TO CALL SAFE. I THINK PEOPLE ARE STUPID TO TAKE ADVISE FROM ANYBODY OTHER THAN A DOCTOR ANYWAYS. THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY HERE AND MY MESSAGE WILL BE READ. OPEN YOUR EYES!!!

All of this, now you're re-trying dutasteride?

A drug that, in your opinion, is "dangerous?"

 

[stax]

yes a**h**, i tried it for another 5 days and got this stupid puffy face sh*t again so im stopping! I still think its dangerous! I was playing with fire. Its my choice! Dont try this at home kids! Dont listen to Aplunk1, go ask a damn doctor, even some of those guys are questionable. Be smart. dutasteride may not give everybody side effects right away, but down the road you have no way of knowing what this drug will do to you.


AND DONT SAY ITS SAFE EVER AGAIN!!!!! THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT IN MY MESSAGE. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT I RE-TRIED dutasteride FOR 5 DAYS TO SEE WHAT EFFECT IT WOULD HAVE ON ME AGAIN. I DONT TELL PEOPLE ITS SAFE.


Its not proven to be safe. Dr.Lee will prescribe Proscar and not Dutasteride, does this tell you something? I know the risk i was taking, im worried about possible long term side effects of reducing 5AR in the brain. Do you want me to provide some proof to my claims? They could be very real. Look at my next post since you wanna be a smartass.



Take this all in and read it again, my whole point of my above comment was to state that Dusateride was not proven to be safe longterm, and there have been no studies done on the long term effects of reducing 5AR type 1, in the brain. There is not a natural biological model for Dutasteride's action. You're telling people its safe and you have no clue if it is or not. And my point with the vioxx was to state that dont put your health in the hands of the FDA all the time, dont think that they always tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, because they dont. My main point was, dont tell people its safe. Its not approved for hairloss.

 

[stax]

#1:


http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... adid=57740

 

[Aplunk1]

Any others claims you'd like to dig up?

I don't think this 1 post provides substantial evidence to rule that Dutasteride is unsafe.

The medical world, in practice, and in theory, seems to show that dutasteride is a safe medicine.

 

[stax]

Yo, im not done yet! Im gettnig it! Some good info.

 

[stax]

Here's another, but im gathering the most important info right now.


http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

 

[stax]

OK, Read the following very carefully.



Finesteride causes an increase in Estrogen and thus and inhibits Progesterone/Allopregenolone, ect to a great degree, some are different than others though. I think there is more to it aswell, like something to do with inhibiting Gaba, im busy right now so i can look for the study but its out there forsure and i though i bookmarked it. Anyways so Progesterone/Allopregenolone is decreased and estrogen is higher, this can cause brain fog, fatigue, memory problems, gyno, sexual side effects,ect.

"Progesterone is an essential hormone that also plays a part in the development of healthy nerve cells and brain and thyroid function. Progestins tend to block the body's ability to produce and utilize natural progesterone to maintain these life promoting functions."


6. "Progesterone serves a role in keeping brain cells healthy. A disorder such as premature senility (Alzheimer's disease) may be, at least in part, another example of disease secondary to progesterone deficiency."


Natural Progesterone cream is what you want to go for, synthetic is bad news. It would be smart for people on 5ar inhibitors to supplement with natural progesterone cream. Im the study im talking about, natural progesterone cream helped to a degree with the side effects due to Finesteride and the imbalance it causes.



Signs, symptoms & indicators of Low Progesterone or Estrogen Dominance:


Lab Values - Hormones Low/reduced progesterone level

Counter-indicators:
Normal/high progesterone level

Symptoms - Female
Enlarged clitoris

Symptoms - General
Constant fatigue

Symptoms - Metabolic
Low stamina
Hyperactivity
Temple-based headaches

Symptoms - Mind - Emotional
Impatient/hostile disposition

Symptoms - Mind - General
A 'foggy' mind
Short-term memory failure

Symptoms - Muscular
Leg cramps caused by walking
(History of/severe) muscle cramp/twitching

Symptoms - Reproductive - Female Cycle
Long menstrual cycles
Low progesterone production is frequently the result of a luteal phase defect. Further testing, such as timed hormone and ultrasound testing, may be necessary to determine the underlying cause.

Pre/menstrual depression
Hot flashes
Studies indicate that progesterone can sometimes minimize hot flashes. While natural progesterone cream has been clinically demonstrated to provide relief from hot flashes in some women, most women require estrogen replacement when a hormone needs to be used.

Breast soreness during cycle
Irritability related to cycle
Painful menstrual cramps
Water retention before menstruation
Constant hot flashes or hot flashes between period

Symptoms - Reproductive - General
Difficulty conceiving children

Symptoms - Skin - General
Yellow-tinged skin
(Possibly) jaundiced skin
Red palms/fingertips
It has been suggested that palmar erythema in liver disease and pregnancy is due to hyperestrogenism, and palmar erythema has also been ascribed to ingestion of those oral contraceptives with a higher estrogen content.





So as you can see listed short term memory loss can be caused by low Progesterone or Estrogen dominance, which Finesteride can cause. So the degree of memory loss in each person is different. As long as you have estrogen dominace in favour of Progesterone, than memory loss and foggy thinking, along with lots of other side effects can occur. Alzheimer's disease is another scary possibility. I know i had a lot of these side effects on finasteride, but after 21 days on dutasteride, my memory was affected a lot more. here's the link, its a LONG read and i only posted important parts.

http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C8769.html

 

[stax]

Make sure to read this link, it will explain the side effects that can come with estrogen to progesterone dominance, which is what finasteride/dutasteride, can cause. Especially dutasteride, and since it inhibits 5AR in the brain.


http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/cond/C8769.html



Do you call this safe?



Here's the link to the topic on HLH:

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=

 

[stax]

Aplunk, you sure contradict yourself a lot,


First you say that finasteride caused you horrible sides, but yet you recommend it to people and say that it works. Why dont you tell the people that you recommend it to that it didnt work for you? You didnt even give it enough time, 8 months?


Then, you go on like dutasteride is such a magical drug, and its doing wonders for your hair and you couldnt be happier, then you turn around and make a post over at HLH titled "hairloss is ruining my life". Well if dutasteride was working wonders for and you couldnt be more happier with Dutasteride, making comments like "you could pry my Dutasteride out of my cold dead hands" as you said, then why was hairloss ruining your life? You dint make f**king sense!

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=



Then, you go as far as to say that "dont worry, Dutasteride is safe" is absolutely retarted. It wasnt approved for hairloss and you have no proof that it wont cause problems 10 years down the road. You cant make claims that it is safe, because its not safe. Reducing 5AR in the brain wasnt studied and researched long term. Thats a serious issue.


the role 5AR-1 plays in the CNS

5AR-1 is thought to prevent neurological toxicity by catabolism of neurotoxic steriods. It also functions to convert progesterone to dihydroprogesterone (DHP) in the brain - a beneficial neurosteroid. 3-alpha-HSD (another enzyme in the brain) converts DHP to
allopregnanolone. Allopregnanolone is a neurosteroid which exhibits anxiolytic (anti-anxiety) and anticonvulsant activities through potentiation of the GABA(A) receptor.



DO YOU THINK ITS SAFE TO MESS WITH THAT? It sure as hell wasnt proven to be safe.



Aplunk, or whatever your name is, dont ever post in any of my threads, if you do, im going to be all over your *** here kid, whenver you make a post. AND DONT TELL PEOPLE DUTASTERIDE IS SAFE MORON!!!!!!

 

[Aplunk1]

The link, http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... SGDBTABLE=, which you have posted twice already...

Did you forget to mention that this user, who complains of irreversible liver damage, is also taking Immortal Hair's Top 3 supplements, too?

And of your other links, there's nothing specific about dutasteride and its effects. There's no doctor analysis except for one user reports that his doctor "thinks" it might have to do with dutasteride.

And on the premise that finasteride/dutasteride increase estrogen/progesterone... did you for a second realize that you're basing this information on a website that sells "natural health analyses" from one person who claims to be a licensed "Naturopath" physician? That website is very shady. I've never heard of anything like this until you brought this up.

I also gather that you're basing a lot of your beliefs on Immortal Hair's belief system, which is that all pharmaceuticals are bad, and that only a natural path should be taken.

Stax, I'm not out to "get" you. I'm only trying to make for more intelligent discussion. Don't take a defensive standpoint and call me a "smartass."

I'm sorry, but I don't find any substance in these "findings."

 

[Aplunk1]

Alright, Stax,
if you don't want to debate here, then fine.

I'm only trying to promote discussion.

Later.

 

[stax]

APLUNK, what i posted is 100% reliable. You know you lost. You can find the info i posted on other websites too, do a google search. Get back to reality. This has nothing to do with Immortal Hair, there's herbs that are probabbly not safe either. Saw Palmetto caused me some sides. You have to be smart and do a lot of research on your own. You're only defending the poison because your on it and dont want to hear of the real possibilities. Do you have ADD? Can you read?


I dont think pharma companies are evil, moron.

MY WHOLE POINT IS TO SAY THAT DUTASTERIDE IS NOT SAFE, HASNT BEEN PROVEN SAFE FOR HAIRLOSS, HASNT BEEN PROVEN TO BE SAFE IN THE LONG RUN, THE EFFECTS OF REDUCING 5AR IN THE BRAIN HAVE NOT BEEN STUDIED. THIS FACT ALONE PROVES THAT DUTASTERIDE ISNT SAFE. ANY INFO I PROVIDED YOU CAN JUST MAKE UP AN EXUSE, BUT IF YOU DO GOOGLE SEARCHES ON THE WEB, YOU WILL FIND THE SIDE EFFECTS OF ESTROGEN TO PROGESTERONE DOMINANCE, WHICH finasteride AND dutasteride CAN CAUSE, AND THEY MATCH UP. WHEN ESTROGEN RISES AS A RESULT OF BLOCKING 5-AR, PROGESTERONE IS ATTENUATED. DOES BRAIN FOG RING A BELL?????? THATS A SIDE EFFECT LISTED IN MY LINK AND MANY PEOPLE EXPERIENCE THAT FROM THESE DRUGS! PEOPLE TAKING finasteride/dutasteride ARE EXPERIENCING SIDE EFFECTS LISTED ON THAT LINK I POSTED THAT " YOU THINK IS DODGY" . IT IS ACCURATE. ALZHEIMERS IS THE SCARIEST LONG TERM POSSIBILITY. DO YOU WANT TO TAKE A CHANCE???






I HAVE TO TYPE IN CAPS BECAUSE APLUNK IS BLIND, OR IM SPEAKING CHINESE. FACE IT, AND GET OVER IT. THESE POSSIBILITIES ARE REAL, AND DUTASTERIDE IS NOT SAFE.



Aplunk, i dont give a f*** about you, but dont go around telling people Dutasteride is safe, show me the proof that inhibiting 5AR type 1 in the brain longterm is safe, and they i will shut my mouth. If a longterm study is done, and inhibiting 5AR type 1 in the brain proves to be safe, then, and only then, can you can tell people Dutasteride is safe. Thank You.



P.S. - I only told you not to post in any of "my" threads. If you take a look this isnt "my" thread. Thank You.

 

[Felk]

I took the time and read everything you posted there stax, including the HLH thread.

They are indeed some scary possibilities. But at this stage, they are just that - possibilities.

I agree that dutasteride hasn't been proven safe in the long run, and we don't know what the effects of inhibiting both type 1 and 2 will be. This you can argue - the fact that it is unknown.

However the links with progesterone dominance are far from proven. What has been posted there by you is just speculation at this stage. Furthermore that HLH thread is misleading as I don't think any side effect can be harder to distinguish from a placebo effect than "brain fog."

It hasn't been proven safe in the long run, but it is safe enough to pass FDA trials. There certainly are some worrying possible long term effects, but they aren't proven.

In short, i believe it's been proven safe, in the short term. For long term use the safety is unknown, but it most certainly has not been proven unsafe

 

[ANDREW_J_I]

stax did finasteride not work for u or something?

and i take it u are not using dutasteride or finasteride?

 

[powersam]

yes a**h**, i tried it for another 5 days and got this stupid puffy face $#iT again so im stopping! I still think its dangerous! I was playing with fire. Its my choice! Dont try this at home kids! Dont listen to Aplunk1, go ask a damn doctor, even some of those guys are questionable. Be smart. dutasteride may not give everybody side effects right away, but down the road you have no way of knowing what this drug will do to you..

you do realise that it takes at least 2 weeks for dutasteride to start acting on your body..... so your little 5 day experiment is either psychosomatic or just plain bullshit.