Proscar or dutasteride??

[stax]

Oh really Powersam?


http://www.gourmetstylewellness.com/discussions ... hp?t=26507


" DHT levels are probably at about Propecia levels after the first or second dose of Avodart.

Bryan"



As soon as DHT is reduced, water retention can occur because Estrogen regulates DHT. Its a very powerful anti-estrogen.



Like i said earlier, its either the minoxidil, Dutasteride, or even mabye the RU. Im going to do some tests and let you guys know. Im pretty sure its some heavy water retention as i said. I just looked at my 6 pack again and its more like 85% showing. So how can i be gaining fat in my face? Who knows. I used Propecia before and dutasteride for 21 days, so some fat could of accumulated in that time due to increased estrogen.




Felk, for god's sake brain fog isnt always placebo. Get over that placebo thing man. Not trying to be rude, but ive never had brain fog in my life. I had some on finasteride and dutasteride. I felt kinda buzzed, and definetly not myself. My mind wasnt clear. And what i posted is not speculation.


Those are the possible side effects of estrogen to progesterone dominance, and its a fact that raised estrogen as a results of reducing DHT, lessens the effects of progesterone. Progesterone can be very benificial. Not synthectic progesterone, natural progesterone. This is totally not speculation, and i didnt say it happened to everybody, but a lot of people get side effects and thats a result of higher estrogen, and at the same time progesterone is attenuated. These are all very possibilities.


dutasteride has been proven to be safe in a 4 year study using 50-60 year olds. They never measured what can happen as a result blocking 5AR type 1 in the brain down the road, and if somebody did develop neurological problems, i can gaurantee that the FDA or Glaxo wouldnt list it as they woudl think it had nothign to do with the drug. Try reducing 5ar in the brain for 10 years? Ouch, thats scary man. Its not safe, if it were, Dr.Lee would be prescribing it like he does proscar. And a lot of Doctors refused to prescribe Dutasteride for hairloss aswell. There's no way you can call this drug safe. Safe means they studied every aspect of this drug and its effects for 15 years,ect. This isnt the case.


Those people in the republic who were born unable to produce type 2 DHT have a track record, along with Finesteride ( which creates the same biological model as those people) which has been around for 15+ years. These people lived normal healthy lives after puberty. dutasteride is a different story. Glaxo themselves say dont use this drug for anything other than BPH. Nobpdy hs this biological model that Dutasteride creates, and it hasnt been studied. SO ITS NOT A SAFE DRUG TO TAKE. You're taking your chances, thats all im saying. You are playing with the unknown. Unknown is not safe.

 

[Felk]

Felk, for god's sake brain fog isnt always placebo. Get over that placebo thing man. Not trying to be rude, but ive never had brain fog in my life. I had some on finasteride and dutasteride. I felt kinda buzzed, and definetly not myself. My mind wasnt clear. And what i posted is not speculation.

No, no, I didn't say it was always a placebo. All im saying is it's so hard to distinguish that particular side effect from a placebo. dutasteride could cause brain fog, yes, but it could just as easily be because the user knows they are taking a drug and are acting differently. You see the difficulty with determining which are side effects are which are just "in their heads"?

We should never discount the placebo effect - in my preparation for an exam for entering a medical course we learn that the placebo effect is a very powerful one. It absolutely has to be accounted for, otherwise the results could go anywhere and the studies on the drug are useless. Our minds/attitudes have a huge effect on our bodies, that's why all experiments with drugs must be measured against placebo.

Imagine a group of tribesmen sitting in front of a witchdoctor. The witchdoctor points the bone at one of the tribesman and tells him that he will die tonight, and later on in the morning he is found dead in his hut.

Try convincing the other tribesman that it was all in his head, that the witchdoctor didn't really have any power at all, it was the tribesman's own mind that made him die. Something that would be impossible to convince them of, but nevertheless something that is completely true. We should never try to "get over" the placebo effect, its too powerful.

 

[stax]

I totally agree that the placebo effect is a reality and happens to some people, but i was having brain fog due to those drugs 110%, its hard to explain, but i felt kinda buzzed and out of it. I also developed more chest fat and a tiny small pea shaped lump on ly left peck near my armpit. The Doctor said it was fatty tissue, and that was 110% not a placebo effect either. So in my case it wasnt placebo, and i beleive other when they say they had these sides aswell.

 

[Bryan]

you do realise that it takes at least 2 weeks for dutasteride to start acting on your body.....

Sam, that's not quite correct. While it does take a couple of weeks or so for the drug to build-up enough to where those really high degrees of suppression are attained (like 90%+), it doesn't take anywhere near that long for more modest, Propecia-like levels of suppression to be reached. Take a look at the following charts from the Gisloskog et al studies of dutasteride and finasteride:

http://www.geocities.com/bryan50001/dutasteride ... ow-res.htm

Scroll down to Figure 4 near the bottom. If you look at the smaller inset graph which shows DHT concentrations over a period of 7 days after each dose, you'll see that even only one day after a dose of 1 mg of dutasteride, DHT levels are definitely below the level attained by 5 mg of finasteride. That's why I say that only a day or two after starting Avodart, you're probably already at Propecia levels of inhibition.

Bryan

 

[powersam]

my mistake, misunderstood what was said about the time it takes levels of dutasteride to build up in the system.

 

[Aplunk1]

Hey Stax,
this kind of blows your whole "this guy got liver damage" thing out of the water:

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/forums/mess ... adid=60361

He claims that dutasteride had no affect on his elevated liver enzymes.

 

[powersam]

the thing is if stax would stop exaggerating and blowing things out of proportion, AND keep a civil tongue, he'd have a point.

there is reason to be cautious about taking dutasteride, but only to the point where one should be informed about the risks of taking the drug and the as yet unknown long term effects.

i guess the difference here is he sees it as guilty until proven innocent, whereas aplunk and I seem to see it from the other side.

and yes there are side effects with dutasteride use, but to try and argue against the % of side effects found in FDA trials with the amount of bad posts one may see on a forum is simply laughable.

 

[stax]

Haha, Aplunk, i wasnt even referring to dutasteride being dangerous because of the liver thing...... i just thought id through that in there. My main points was the other things i posted and the fact that NOBODY KNOWS WHAT WILL HAPPEN LONG TERM AS A RESULT OF INHIBITING TYPE 1 DHT IN THE BRAIN. THIS HAS NEVER BEEN STUDIES, HENCE YOU CANT CALL dutasteride SAFE BECAUSE THERE COULD BE UNKNOWN NEUROLOGICAL COMPLICATIONS AS A RESULT OF LONGTERM USE. PLUS THE FACT THAT KNOWBODY KNOWS WHERE 50% OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT OF dutasteride'S METABOLITES GO IN THE BODY, THEY WERE UNTRACEABLE. I THINK ONLY 20% OR SOMETHING WAS FOUND IN THE URINE OR FECES, AND THEY COULDNT FIND THE REST :freaked:


That is all im trying to say, but talking to some of you is like talking to a brick wall. Show me a study where inhibiting 5AR in the brain longterm was safe and cause no neurological problems and i will shut my mouth and you can tell people dutasteride is safe. THATS ALL IM TRYING TO SAY!

 

[RSG]

Dammmmm....scary stuff. So how does all this relate to propecia? Is it safe, as propecia is a type 2 inhibitor?

 

[powersam]

cut out the caps dumbass

 

[stax]

PowerSam, f*** you you stupid f*****g f*****.


"i love shelton AND foote, how do i decide" ..... YOU ARE A f*****g GAY LOSER BUDDY!!!

 

[Aplunk1]

PowerSam, f*** you you stupid f****ing f*****.


"i love shelton AND foote, how do i decide" ..... YOU ARE A f****ing GAY LOSER BUDDY!!!

Moderator?

 

[powersam]

well Aplunk at least we tried to be reasonable.

 

[stax]

sure, Powersam calling me a dumbass is reasonable. He's an a**h** in most of his posts and he's not going to get away with that with me. I feel the need to yell because you guys arent paying attention to the info posted and answering questions ive asked. You "choose" not to read it because it could be true and you know im right.

Moderator? why dont you go cry no "Aplunk 1" ....sissy.


A moderator should deal with you "Aplunk 1" telling newbies that Dutasteride is safe to use, like its candy.




Mabye this will make you "drug lovers and mis informers" happy to hear me say.


Ive been on Avodart for over a week and ive been taking it at night rather than in the morning. Ive experienced "NO" side effects thus far, no brain fog, no sexual problems,ect. What was causing bags/lines under my eyes and a puffier face was Minoxidil. I know because i stopped taking minoxidil for about 5 days, and my face looks better, im waking up with absolutely no lines, rings, or bags under my eyes, despite only getting 5 hours of sleep or less per night. So its all due to the stupid Minoxidil. It was giving me water retention. Im either going to have to take a low dose of a loop diuretic or something if i want to continue minoxidil.

But, this doesnt change the fact that studies havent proven long term that inhibiting 5AR 1 in the brain is safe long-term and causes no neurological problems. Im not trying to scare people, but "Aplunk 1" didnt feel the need to give this information out whilst telling everybody to jump on dutasteride like its a peice of candy. Also, nobody knows where at least 50% of the drug's metabolites go in your body, they were uuntraceable in tests, so thats just unknown. Anything unknown isnt exactly safe. Im not saying its dangerous really, but it hasnt proven to be safe and i know you guys are big on proven stuff so why try and argue this fact? Its not approved for hairloss bottom line.

 

[powersam]

after your last post directed toward me you now expect civility? oddly enough you're going to receive it, albeit undeserved.

you state you ask questions which are ignored. ask those questions again in point form as briefly as possible, without over usage of capital letters and the whole forum including myself will do the best they can to answer them.

you state aplunk is an a**h** in most of his posts - please point out which posts concerned you as to their assholyness and relate that to the amount of posts aplunk has made.

oh and you might want to stop editing out your posts in this thread. everyone has read them already so its not going to do you any good.

 

[stax]

I havent edited a thing, only spelling mistakes. If you still dont get it then its a lost cause. Hopefully newbies will understand the potential neurological risks involved with taking dutasteride, and it not proven to be a safe drug like propecia is. Thats even a bit questionable. Im not wasting anymore of my time here. Have a nice day.

 

[powersam]

i gave you a chance to restate everything and enter into a clear benevolent discussion about the points you brought up and you seem to have passed it by. to whoever may be viewing this thread, read into that what you will.

 

[stax]

Okay, main question.



How can you call Dutasteride safe when:


1. It hasnt been FDA approved for hairloss

2. There are no studies showing what inhibiting type 1 5AR in the brain might do longterm. Im talking 10-15 years of studies and backgrounds like Finesteride. There is a biological model in humans for finesteride's action, but not Dutasterides. There might be unknown neuroligcal complications due to inhibiting type 1 5AR in the brain considering type 1 5AR prevents neurological toxicity by catabolism of neurotoxic steriods, and so forth.


3. over 50% of the drug's metabolites couldnt be accounted for in the body, like in urine, feces,ect. Where the heck does that 50% go?

 

[Felk]

On a completely different note - I'm assuming since you're online now, you are staying up like me to watch the soccer Sam?

 

[ANDREW_J_I]

^u two from america?

man with brazil and england out, it doesnt interest me half as much. italy to win.