Proxiphen(-N) a scam?
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Beethoven
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Flame wars are for little children and also a waste of time. Please stop.
Now seriously: How does tempol protects? does it protects from free radicals by being an antioxidant? is that the only action it does for the hair? Is there ANY role for free radicals in male pattern baldness???
I know that Dr Proctor is not the only one saying that antioxidants are good. For example Foltene added zanthin (which is claimed to be powerful antioxidant) to their product. I think that there are more products with antioxidants... bcapop: If I'm not mistaken your topicals also contain some antioxidants, right?
Now seriously: How does tempol protects? does it protects from free radicals by being an antioxidant? is that the only action it does for the hair? Is there ANY role for free radicals in male pattern baldness???
I know that Dr Proctor is not the only one saying that antioxidants are good. For example Foltene added zanthin (which is claimed to be powerful antioxidant) to their product. I think that there are more products with antioxidants... bcapop: If I'm not mistaken your topicals also contain some antioxidants, right?
Old Baldy
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viperfish said:
IMHO, you are missing something and it's important.
DHT/androgens cause a cascade of negative effects in male pattern baldness. One effect is the inability of the follicles to grow healthy cells. It does this on a slow, steady basis for most men over a long period of time and results in minaturized cosmetically unacceptable follicles.
Chemo treatment causes a cascade of negative effects quickly and strongly. It too prevents the follicles from growing healthy follicle cells.
Chemo does this on a more global scale and does it much quicker than dht/androgens in male pattern baldness.
Look up endothelial growth factors, etc. (Doctor Proctor, Bryan, Michael, Doctor and College can help you more with this subject but it is a fascinating subject to read about IMHO.)
Tempo/tempol interrupts the cascade of negative effects for many people undergoing chemo therapy so their hair grows back faster, or in some minor cases doesn't cause the hair to fall out in the first place.
If tempo/tempol can interrupt this cycle in chemo I don't think it is a quantum leap to conclude it can possibly help in treating male pattern baldness.
I liken chemo therapy to a howitzer cannon. I liken dht/androgens in male pattern baldness as a .22 long rifle cartridge. If tempo/tempol can help "neutralize" the howitzer cannon it should very well be able to help neutralize the .22 long rifle.
It is the possible interruption of the "cascade of events" that gives tempo/tempol its potential in chemo therapy and, by default and common sense, in treating the negative "cascade of events" involved in male pattern baldness IMHO.
I do agree with the mainstream theory that we must first interrput the effect of dht/androgens though. Tempo/tempol "comes" after that IMHO by helping the follicles grow healthy cells and/or preventing the follicles from growing "unhealthy" cells.
What we want is a robust follicle that gets that way by growing healthy cells IMHO. Tempo has been shown to help with that. Like I said, tempo/tempol will probably be approved by the FDA as a treatment for chemo hairloss.
I know alot of you guys disagree but, for me, that's a "biggie".
Beethoven
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Old Baldy said:
But you have to prove/find some study that show that it's the same cascade, same molecules that are involved?
So chemo alopecia is caused by free radicals, does free radicals play some role in the cascade of molecules/events that happens after DHT finds the receptors?
Again, the leap you're doing here is to assume it's the same cascade, unless we find some proof for that, we can't make that leap.Old Baldy said:
Same again, the deafult and common sense don't work here. we must find some study describing free radicals role in male pattern baldness.Old Baldy said:
So tempol is probably good for chemo alopecia, and yet we need to find whether it's good for male pattern baldness. No one else gives any proof/studies about Dr.P other chemicals... So far it seems that there is no proof (other than few good user evidences) that prox-N works...
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Beethoven said:
Sure, assuming that Dr. Proctor is correct about the key role played by the superoxide/nitric oxide pair in the hair cycle, and I have no reason to doubt his judgement. Any substance with SOD activity (copper peptides, TEMPO/TEMPOL, PBN, etc.) or nitric oxide mimetics (minoxidil, NANO) would be expected to be hairgrowth stimulants.
Old Baldy
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+1 what Bryan said but I don't think he said it strongly enough.
I understand what you and the other guys are saying Beethoven.
I haven't read concrete studies proving what you want proven. I am making assumptions and correlations that, to me, don't seem outlandish. To you, they are outlandish. That's where we disagree.
Also I'm biased because the combination of spironolactone., tempo/tempol and nicotinic acid n-oxide, in a cream base, works well for me. I admit that is anecdotal but it fits in with my assumptions and correlations. (I also regularly use homemade bayberry extract.)
I can't deny the results I'm seeing. And for me, that is the most important study!
I understand what you and the other guys are saying Beethoven.
I haven't read concrete studies proving what you want proven. I am making assumptions and correlations that, to me, don't seem outlandish. To you, they are outlandish. That's where we disagree.
Also I'm biased because the combination of spironolactone., tempo/tempol and nicotinic acid n-oxide, in a cream base, works well for me. I admit that is anecdotal but it fits in with my assumptions and correlations. (I also regularly use homemade bayberry extract.)
I can't deny the results I'm seeing. And for me, that is the most important study!
viperfish
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Old Baldy said:viperfish said:[quote="Old Baldy"
Old Baldy,
Is it just for chemo. treated patients? It would be hard to say if tempol would actually be successful in treating genetic hairloss. Or am I missing something?
IMHO, you are missing something and it's important.
DHT/androgens cause a cascade of negative effects in male pattern baldness. One effect is the inability of the follicles to grow healthy cells. It does this on a slow, steady basis for most men over a long period of time and results in minaturized cosmetically unacceptable follicles.
Chemo treatment causes a cascade of negative effects quickly and strongly. It too prevents the follicles from growing healthy follicle cells.
Chemo does this on a more global scale and does it much quicker than dht/androgens in male pattern baldness.
Look up endothelial growth factors, etc. (Doctor Proctor, Bryan, Michael, Doctor and College can help you more with this subject but it is a fascinating subject to read about IMHO.)
Tempo/tempol interrupts the cascade of negative effects for many people undergoing chemo therapy so their hair grows back faster, or in some minor cases doesn't cause the hair to fall out in the first place.
If tempo/tempol can interrupt this cycle in chemo I don't think it is a quantum leap to conclude it can possibly help in treating male pattern baldness.
I liken chemo therapy to a howitzer cannon. I liken dht/androgens in male pattern baldness as a .22 long rifle cartridge. If tempo/tempol can help "neutralize" the howitzer cannon it should very well be able to help neutralize the .22 long rifle.
It is the possible interruption of the "cascade of events" that gives tempo/tempol its potential in chemo therapy and, by default and common sense, in treating the negative "cascade of events" involved in male pattern baldness IMHO.
I do agree with the mainstream theory that we must first interrput the effect of dht/androgens though. Tempo/tempol "comes" after that IMHO by helping the follicles grow healthy cells and/or preventing the follicles from growing "unhealthy" cells.
What we want is a robust follicle that gets that way by growing healthy cells IMHO. Tempo has been shown to help with that. Like I said, tempo/tempol will probably be approved by the FDA as a treatment for chemo hairloss.
I know alot of you guys disagree but, for me, that's a "biggie".[/quote
sggghtd]Thanks. I see what you are saying, but I think you are drawing alot of assumptions here. If it works for you that's great.
Felk
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Bryan said:Oh, so you think it's just the minoxidil which is doing all that?
Are you sure it's only 2% at the moment Bryan?
Well in that case I'm a very satisfied customer
You see, I know proxiphen is maintaining for me (i'm on nothing else), but whether or not it was simply down to the minoxidil, I wasn't sure. Now i know that if I start losing ground I can always add the minoxidil to the mix for the growth offset.And i'm not worried about the price - when I was using it every day each vial lasted at least 3 months. $30 a month isn't too bad for keeping my hair, with ease and without side effects. These days it's about half that since I've learnt to use less to cover the same area.
Prox-N is the combination of many of the agents we have found to stimulate hair growth in over 20 years of screening agents. Our screening program works like this-- we take persons who have not responded to anything else and try out new agents on them until something works. Then this gets incorporated into our program. The result is nine US patents. As for confirmation--- These include claims for agents that others have subsequently confirmed to be effective. Examples include copper peptides, the spin labels TEMPOL and TEMPOL, and NANO. We use all of these and other agenst besides. BTW, our prescriotion formulation Proxiphen contains both TEMPOL and TEMPO. Prox-N contains TEMPO.
Again, these agents were discovered in our screening program before being indenpendently discovered by others. E.g., Japanese cosmetics and pharmceutical giant Shiesedo has Japanese patents on NANO esters as hair-growth stimulators. In the case of copper peptides, "others" includes Procyte and the Procter and Gamble company. Likewise, TEMPOL is currently in clinical trials for radiation alopecia. See: http://www.mitospharma.com/research/pro ... opecia.cfm
All discovered and patented by me first-- look it up on http://www.uspto.gov. Because of the patent situation, nobody but me can use all these agents together or, in most cases, at all. Which is why you don't see NANO esters from Sheiseido in the US.
I would be the last to claim that medical treatment works for everyone. In fact, what we physicians have is a plethora of agents, all of which work some. This includes Minoxidil, Propecia, antiseborrheic dermatitis agents, etc. . The real "secret" is just to use multiple agents which work in somewhat different ways together. This way you hopefully get synergistic (or at least additive ) effects. It is the same principle by which physicians treat a lot of chronic diseases.
Even then, medical treatment for hair loss generally does not do some things. The first of these is slowing your rate of hair shedding. In fact, initially your rate of loss is just as likely to go up due to follicles shedding loss-phase hair early as they get turned on by treatment. This is the well-known "shed, discussed here elsewhere at length. Other things that medical treatment generally does not do is grow new hair in a shiney area, move a hair-line foreward, or regrow hair that has been gone for more than 4-5 years. And yes, there are lots of exceptions-- e.g., even minoxidil and Propecia occasionally move a hair-line foreward. Just treatment them as a bonus.
What you can reasonable expect is a combination of coarsening of what you have, plus a variable amount of regrowth of recent loss. All behind your present hair-line. But if you really want to be conservative, treat medical treatment as a way to stop getting worse and coarsen what you have. Treat regrowth per se as a bonus.
Peter H Proctor, PhD,MD
Again, these agents were discovered in our screening program before being indenpendently discovered by others. E.g., Japanese cosmetics and pharmceutical giant Shiesedo has Japanese patents on NANO esters as hair-growth stimulators. In the case of copper peptides, "others" includes Procyte and the Procter and Gamble company. Likewise, TEMPOL is currently in clinical trials for radiation alopecia. See: http://www.mitospharma.com/research/pro ... opecia.cfm
All discovered and patented by me first-- look it up on http://www.uspto.gov. Because of the patent situation, nobody but me can use all these agents together or, in most cases, at all. Which is why you don't see NANO esters from Sheiseido in the US.
I would be the last to claim that medical treatment works for everyone. In fact, what we physicians have is a plethora of agents, all of which work some. This includes Minoxidil, Propecia, antiseborrheic dermatitis agents, etc. . The real "secret" is just to use multiple agents which work in somewhat different ways together. This way you hopefully get synergistic (or at least additive ) effects. It is the same principle by which physicians treat a lot of chronic diseases.
Even then, medical treatment for hair loss generally does not do some things. The first of these is slowing your rate of hair shedding. In fact, initially your rate of loss is just as likely to go up due to follicles shedding loss-phase hair early as they get turned on by treatment. This is the well-known "shed, discussed here elsewhere at length. Other things that medical treatment generally does not do is grow new hair in a shiney area, move a hair-line foreward, or regrow hair that has been gone for more than 4-5 years. And yes, there are lots of exceptions-- e.g., even minoxidil and Propecia occasionally move a hair-line foreward. Just treatment them as a bonus.
What you can reasonable expect is a combination of coarsening of what you have, plus a variable amount of regrowth of recent loss. All behind your present hair-line. But if you really want to be conservative, treat medical treatment as a way to stop getting worse and coarsen what you have. Treat regrowth per se as a bonus.
Peter H Proctor, PhD,MD
Re TEMPOL (and TEMPO)
While TEMPOL does cut the toxicity of chemotherapy agents, the clinical trial is for Radiation-induced hair loss.
The connection with pattern loss-- TEMPOL is an "SOD-mimetic". That is, it catalyzes the breakdown of superoxide. Superoxide is the messenger for many processes. In the case of hair-growth and loss, it seems to be the normal messenger that tells the hair to quit growing and fall-out. In this it is opposed by another messenger, nitric oxide or "NO". BTW, as the name implies, MiNOxidil contains the NO chemical group and may act as an "agonist" or mimic of NO.
A lot of superoxide gets produced in radiation treatment and this works on the follicle to make the hair fall out. This partially mimics the hair cycle, where superoxide is the normal messenger for hair-fallout. Which is why radiation-alopecia is a reasonable model for superoxide-induced hair loss in general.
Similarly, superoxide and nitric oxide react to produce peroxinitrite, which is very nasty stuff indeed. TEMPOL (and TEMPO) act as competitive inhibitors of this process. TEMPOL acts at a very basic level for how tissues go bad. So, it is also effective against a broad swath of diseases in experimental animals. In addition to alopecia, these include stroke, cancer, and heart attack.
The allied compounds, spin-traps such as PBN and MNP, also act at the same basic level, over a wide swath of diseases from hair loss to stroke. For this reason, my most recent scientific publications are in the journal Stroke. Yes, we use these compounds in our formulations.
BTW, the overlap between hair-loss-treatment agents and "neuroprotectants" (antistroke agents) is pretty good. It even extends to things like low-energy IR. Likewise, my latest pending paper in Stroke concerns the neuroprotectant properties of uric acid, for which I also have patent claims as a treatment for hair loss.
Also see an interview with me in Forbes ( at: http://www.forbes.com/health/feeds/hsco ... 07150.html ). AstraZeneca made an $11 billion-dollar mistake. Naturally, they are going to deny it, but many people in stroke research agree with me.
Peter H. Proctor, PhD,MD
While TEMPOL does cut the toxicity of chemotherapy agents, the clinical trial is for Radiation-induced hair loss.
The connection with pattern loss-- TEMPOL is an "SOD-mimetic". That is, it catalyzes the breakdown of superoxide. Superoxide is the messenger for many processes. In the case of hair-growth and loss, it seems to be the normal messenger that tells the hair to quit growing and fall-out. In this it is opposed by another messenger, nitric oxide or "NO". BTW, as the name implies, MiNOxidil contains the NO chemical group and may act as an "agonist" or mimic of NO.
A lot of superoxide gets produced in radiation treatment and this works on the follicle to make the hair fall out. This partially mimics the hair cycle, where superoxide is the normal messenger for hair-fallout. Which is why radiation-alopecia is a reasonable model for superoxide-induced hair loss in general.
Similarly, superoxide and nitric oxide react to produce peroxinitrite, which is very nasty stuff indeed. TEMPOL (and TEMPO) act as competitive inhibitors of this process. TEMPOL acts at a very basic level for how tissues go bad. So, it is also effective against a broad swath of diseases in experimental animals. In addition to alopecia, these include stroke, cancer, and heart attack.
The allied compounds, spin-traps such as PBN and MNP, also act at the same basic level, over a wide swath of diseases from hair loss to stroke. For this reason, my most recent scientific publications are in the journal Stroke. Yes, we use these compounds in our formulations.
BTW, the overlap between hair-loss-treatment agents and "neuroprotectants" (antistroke agents) is pretty good. It even extends to things like low-energy IR. Likewise, my latest pending paper in Stroke concerns the neuroprotectant properties of uric acid, for which I also have patent claims as a treatment for hair loss.
Also see an interview with me in Forbes ( at: http://www.forbes.com/health/feeds/hsco ... 07150.html ). AstraZeneca made an $11 billion-dollar mistake. Naturally, they are going to deny it, but many people in stroke research agree with me.
Peter H. Proctor, PhD,MD
DoctorHouse
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Dr Proctor, I appreciate your education on your topicals. I have noticed Proxiphen definitely has been helping with even regrowth. I do notice the hairs that have regrown look like hairs similar to a person who had transplanted hair. They are terminal hairs that grow but seem thinner in diameter and kind of have a mind of their own and fly forward at my hairline. It looks like a hair transplant at my hairline. Is that expected? Second can one build up a tolerance to Proxiphen? And is Proxiphen-n just as effective as 5% minoxidil and can you build up a tolerance to Proxiphen-n as one can with minoxidil? I have also cut my Propecia dosage to half a Propecia everyday for almost a month and my hair texture seems to be getting better( just the thickness or texture feeling) like it was before I started ever with Propecia. Somehow my hair texture got thinner and whispy on Propecia after about 6 to 8 months on it. Is that possible or coincidence?
DoctorHouse
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bump for Dr Proctor
hair today gone tomorrow
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DoctorHouse said:
hes not gonna really answer personal type questions like that...hed rather just speak in more broad terms about his products.
DoctorHouse
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Well, I asked some general questions too. I don't think Dr Proctor comes on here all the time. But if he does maybe he will at least answer my general questions. I read on some other site, don't remember now which one, where it stated that you can build a tolerance to minoxidil but less likely with Proxiphen-n.