Question for Bryan

[beaner]

Bryan,

There's a guy on the other forums...it's actually Joe "Zix"....who's saying it's nearly impossible to regrow hair that was lost more than 30 months ago due to follicular fibrosis. He also states that anyone who grows hair beyond this "window" is an extremely rare case. He also cites a study backing his point. Now based on my own experience, I can say this is not the case and based on many success stories I've read here, it's certainly not that rare to regrow hair lost more than 2 1/2 years ago. Basically my question is: Is he full of sh*t? What do you think the "window" for regrowth could be? I think I may have read something along the lines of 7 or so years, but certainly not 30 months.

 

[powersam]

you gonna post the studies?

ps/ some people scar far more easily than others, so any stated figure is going to be wrong for some and right for others.

 

[beaner]

you gonna post the studies?

ps/ some people scar far more easily than others, so any stated figure is going to be wrong for some and right for others.

Yeah, I couldn't find the link before but here is his response to my post on HLH questioning his 30 month theory, note anything below are his words and not mine:




Here's where I got the 30 month theory.

I've always noticed that successful treatment for male pattern baldness always seemed to occur with those individuals that recently began losing their hair. This study would tend to explain why that is. Basically it shows that once a hair follicle has stopped producing a terminal hair for more than 30 months, it can never be stimulated to do so. In short we need to intervene at the first signs of the condition. Essentially, the conversion of testosterone to DHT causes the physiological response of inflammation and then fibrosis. Once fibrosis has set in....the game is over. From a more practical stand point, the best case scenario would be to stop further hair loss and regress the condition back 30 months. If you're hoping to do better than that, your efforts will probably end in disappointment.

Irreversibility of hair follicle changes after 30 months of Androgenetic Alopecia.

Konstantinova N, Korotkii N.G, Sharova N, Barhunova E, Gaevski D. Nioxin Research Inc, Atlanta, USA Moscow Medical University

We studied horizontal and vertical biopsy from 15 caucasian 24-41 year old males diagnosed with bitemporal recession Androgenetic Alopecia (AA) for 1.5 –18 years (average 7.4 years). All 15 biopsies were stained with H&E, Van Gieson and with other collagen specific stainings. 1. Eleven pts with AA longer than 3 years had perifollicular fibrosis - collagen fibers were compact and formed a small scar-like formation around each anagen hair follicle(HF). Two patients - 33 year old with 18 month AA and 23 year old with 20 month AA did not have these hair follicle changes. Two 26-year-old patients with 30 and 36 month AA respectively were found to have some not so severe collagen fiber changes. 2. Infundibulum of HF dilatated 124-192 mm and most of them covered with keratinazed plug lacking normal hair shaft growth. 3. Decreased number of hair follicles 1.75-2,45 per sq. mm from 3.5-5 per sq. mm in control group. 4. None of anagen HF was situated in subcutaneous fat. We showed a correlation between length of the AA and severity/ thickness of perifollicular fibrosis. The result of this study is that any treatment of AA is recommended to start earlier than 30 months from first signs of AA. This should prevent irreversible collagen changes associated with “fibrotic incapsulationâ€￾ of most anagen HF in involved areas, which usually leads to loss of normal blood supply, innervation, and subsequent miniaturization and prevention of hair from normal cycling."

Of course there are always exceptions. For example a guy has terminal lung cancer and the predicted survival time is 6 months but he lives for 2 years. You may be one of the exceptions or perhaps you are merely growing a scant few hairs that have passed the 30 month period however not enough to make any real cosmetic difference.

 

[beaner]

ps/ some people scar far more easily than others, so any stated figure is going to be wrong for some and right for others.

...and I totally agree with that statement but I think 30 months isn't correct as an average. I think it's much higher.

 

[powersam]

thanks for posting that mate. i'll check it out in more detail later, but the one thing i'd like to bring attention to is the supposed time each patient had been affected by AA. it would seem to me if you are going to be affected by male pattern baldness then the process would start immediately upon puberty, so everyone with male pattern baldness has had it ever since puberty. grading the amount of time someone has had male pattern baldness by when they think they noticed it seems pretty silly to me.

that said, i'm glad you put this up as i do think fibrosis plays a very important and so far ignored part in male pattern baldness and treating male pattern baldness. i've actually been using onion oil for about 3 weeks now in an effort to combat fibrotic scarring.

hopefully bryan and michael barry see this soon.

 

[Pondle]

It's interesting to read this in the context of the new study in Naturethis week, which found that "wounding induces an embryonic phenotype in skin, and that this provides a window for manipulation of hair follicle neogenesis by Wnt proteins."

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070514/ ... 14-12.html

One day (relatively) soon-ish, the 30 month 'window' may be a thing of the past.

 

[H/B]

I don't believe this at all, or at least for everyone. I have got regrowth of hair that checked out about seven + years ago. Terminal hair, and many intermediate that are cosmetically significant. This did not occur till after two years of minoxidil with retin-a and copper peptides...also 15 months on finasteride. Me thinks the retin-a and copper helps repair some of the dammage.

 

[Bryan]

Bryan,

There's a guy on the other forums...it's actually Joe "Zix"....who's saying it's nearly impossible to regrow hair that was lost more than 30 months ago due to follicular fibrosis.

Oh, I think we all agree with the general notion that regrowth of lost hair becomes increasingly more difficult to achieve as time goes by, but I wouldn't be so bold as to specify such a precise-sounding figure as "30 months"! :wink:

BTW, I have a number of studies in my Study Stack having to do with individuals who mysteriously started regrowing some hair after some unexpected event, like treatment with some drug that seemingly has no apparent connection with hairloss. In some cases, it occurred LONG after thay had originally lost the hair.

 

[Bryan]

Here's one example of a case of hair regrowth after a long period of loss. It's been cited on hairloss sites for a long time:

Acta Derm Venereol. 1990;70(4):342-3.
"Reversal of andro-genetic alopecia in a male. A spironolactone effect?"
Bou-Abboud CF, Nemec F, Toffel F.
Department of Internal Medicine, University Medical Center of Southern Nevada, University of Nevada School of Medicine.

This 73-year-old white male has been bald since the age of 28. He developed nonA-nonB-induced liver cirrhosis and had been treated with spironolactone for the last 6 years. For the last 3 months, his hair had started to regrow over the scalp. This might be related to the antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone.

 

[HARM1]

Here's one example of a case of hair regrowth after a long period of loss. It's been cited on hairloss sites for a long time:

Acta Derm Venereol. 1990;70(4):342-3.
"Reversal of andro-genetic alopecia in a male. A spironolactone effect?"
Bou-Abboud CF, Nemec F, Toffel F.
Department of Internal Medicine, University Medical Center of Southern Nevada, University of Nevada School of Medicine.

This 73-year-old white male has been bald since the age of 28. He developed nonA-nonB-induced liver cirrhosis and had been treated with spironolactone for the last 6 years. For the last 3 months, his hair had started to regrow over the scalp. This might be related to the antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone.

How much hair grew? are there any pictures? and you said that the growth came after an unexpected event- what was it in this case? you also said that the growth happened after being treated with some drug that seemingly has no apparent connection with hairloss- and spironolactone has all the connetions in the world

 

[beaner]

Here's one example of a case of hair regrowth after a long period of loss. It's been cited on hairloss sites for a long time:

Acta Derm Venereol. 1990;70(4):342-3.
"Reversal of andro-genetic alopecia in a male. A spironolactone effect?"
Bou-Abboud CF, Nemec F, Toffel F.
Department of Internal Medicine, University Medical Center of Southern Nevada, University of Nevada School of Medicine.

This 73-year-old white male has been bald since the age of 28. He developed nonA-nonB-induced liver cirrhosis and had been treated with spironolactone for the last 6 years. For the last 3 months, his hair had started to regrow over the scalp. This might be related to the antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone.

Wow, I've never seen that one. Imagine growing hair after 45 years....I bet that guy was surprised.

 

[Bryan]

How much hair grew? are there any pictures?

There's a pair of before-and-after pictures in the article, but they're not terribly high-quality. I may try to scan them and post them, if enough people are interested.

and you said that the growth came after an unexpected event- what was it in this case?

Like they said in the abstract, he was being treated for cirrhosis.

you also said that the growth happened after being treated with some drug that seemingly has no apparent connection with hairloss- and spironolactone has all the connetions in the world

I didn't say that THIS PARTICULAR STUDY had no apparent connection with hairloss. I was referring to other studies with other drugs. I just happened to remember that spironolactone/cirrhosis article after I had already posted the other comment.

 

[Nick4441]

So why don't we all take spironolactone?

I think I would be keener to try that then dutasteride because finasteride is not working for me and dutasteride I see as just a stronger version of finasteride. All the likely sides with each.

spironolactone works in a different...any studies on it and how many pills do you take a day..its like 100*100Mg tabs for £25 on inhouse.

Whos had success here on it...Hey as long as you don't get man boobs on it

 

[beaner]

So why don't we all take spironolactone?

 

[IBM]

So why don't we all take spironolactone?

Pfff... My brother have boobs like that. Even bigger. I think that boobs is due to fat not gyno.
You wont see slim guys with boobs.

My problem is gettting Spironolactone cheap. I dont have money to take 100mg or 200mg a day. If i had i would take it and not get those boobs.

 

[Armando Jose]

Very well Harm1;

where are photos?

Armando

 

[michael barry]

I'd like to see the spironolactone regrowth photos myself if you get the chance Bryan, thx. M

 

[klink]

I don't agree with 30 months, I have gotten regrowth of hair I lost like 6-7 years ago... I was surprised.